Messianic Judaism

[anisavta]

I know that in the UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations) there is an ongoing discussion within the leadership as to whether conversion is necessary and if so how it should be carried out. But as of now the debate is to the whys of it all. Because it is not recognized in Israel it would only be for personal reasons.
Some of the UMJC congregations (those within a more Jewish population) allow Gentiles to worship in their shul but do not allow them to be in leadership. Others however are more Gentile influenced and anyone can serve. It's a mixed bag.

 

[Lulav]

It seems that in The gospel attributed to John, Hebrew place names and titles are given the equivelent in Hebrew. I wonder why this was only done with this Gospel?

Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

Also Paul testifies before King Agrippa

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Of course here he is claiming that this is Jesus speaking to him. But why does it matter that he spoke in Hebrew? Apparently Paul must not have been speaking Hebrew to the King or this would sound silly.

 

[ChavaK]

I have to agree. The more I hang around this forum the more I see that a lot of people- Jew and Gentile alike- have a very romanticized view of the "Jewishness" of Jesus and His teachings. It's only after a certain maturity in faith arrives that people can let go of the whole ethnicity of God and His plan and embrace a working, healthy and holy relationship with Him.

What I have noticed is that the obsession with all things Jewish and Judaic really reduces Christianity down to a series of propositions and theologies- just like any denominational process. It changes Christianity into a subject for debate and the search of the perfect set of Messianic religious dogmas and trappings. But, when I read the NT, I see that Christianity was primarily intended to put endless religious debate over laws, interpretations and religious practices on its head. It is about a life lived in loving God and neighbor through action, led by the Holy Spirit, whose indwelling changes everything and makes all this religious stuff rather useless.

In religious forms of Christianity, like Catholicism, Anglicanism etc, we start up using traditions as a help to serving God but we end up serving the traditions instead. I see this happening full-throttle in the Hebrew roots/MJ movement as well. The more emphasis we see on "keeping God's appointed times" or using Hebrew words or whatever, the more we see people serving tradition and religion and the less we see of people living a life led in obedience to the things taught on the Sermon on the Mount. The Spirit-filled life takes a back seat to the abstinence of driving a car on Saturday, or feeding the poor or meeting wounded people on the steet with nothing but the Gospel of salvation. Lighting candles or wearing tzitzis or celebrating New Year does not fulfill the Law of Christ. While there is nothing wrong with religious observances we always seem to end up serving them and not the other way around. It's part of human nature and the desire to save oneself or guide one's own spiritual walk through our own efforts.

I just hope and pray that all this religious ritual/laws stuff does not take control of the MJ denominations like it did with many other forms of Christianity. It's really up to this generation of MJs to make a change.

Well said, Contra

 

[Lulav]

No. The Greek term ἑβραϊστί means both "in Hebrew" and "in Aramaic." It's the same word. I can demonstrate that to you, if you like - but all of the dictionaries say the same thing even without having to demonstrate it.

So how does one determine which language is being spoken of? Is this a problem in the Greek? What I mean is, because they didn't see a difference in the languages? Like Eenglish and the King's English? Or American English vs UK English?

 

[ContraMundum]

Don't recall the reference off hand but IIRC, Acts' telling of Paul's conversion says that Yeshua called and spoke to him in Hebrew. Just 1 minor instance but it's there....

And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' Acts 26:14

I hate to say it but that doesn't conclusively prove Jesus spoke the Hebrew language of the OT. There's lots of linguistic evidence to show that Paul is using this term as a way to tell King Agrippa that Jesus spoke the common tongue of the Hebrew people as it was spoken at that time (Aramaic/Chaldee). Day-to-day He almost certainly spoke Aramaic and probably some Greek.

The point is that now He speaks any language He wants, to all people, through His Word and the Spirit, so its really not all that important to know what He spoke then, although it might be interesting.

 

[rsduncan]

I have to agree. The more I hang around this forum the more I see that a lot of people- Jew and Gentile alike- have a very romanticized view of the "Jewishness" of Jesus and His teachings. It's only after a certain maturity in faith arrives that people can let go of the whole ethnicity of God and His plan and embrace a working, healthy and holy relationship with Him.

What I have noticed is that the obsession with all things Jewish and Judaic really reduces Christianity down to a series of propositions and theologies- just like any denominational process. It changes Christianity into a subject for debate and the search of the perfect set of Messianic religious dogmas and trappings. But, when I read the NT, I see that Christianity was primarily intended to put endless religious debate over laws, interpretations and religious practices on its head. It is about a life lived in loving God and neighbor through action, led by the Holy Spirit, whose indwelling changes everything and makes all this religious stuff rather useless.

In religious forms of Christianity, like Catholicism, Anglicanism etc, we start up using traditions as a help to serving God but we end up serving the traditions instead. I see this happening full-throttle in the Hebrew roots/MJ movement as well. The more emphasis we see on "keeping God's appointed times" or using Hebrew words or whatever, the more we see people serving tradition and religion and the less we see of people living a life led in obedience to the things taught on the Sermon on the Mount. The Spirit-filled life takes a back seat to the abstinence of driving a car on Saturday, or feeding the poor or meeting wounded people on the steet with nothing but the Gospel of salvation. Lighting candles or wearing tzitzis or celebrating New Year does not fulfill the Law of Christ. While there is nothing wrong with religious observances we always seem to end up serving them and not the other way around. It's part of human nature and the desire to save oneself or guide one's own spiritual walk through our own efforts.

I just hope and pray that all this religious ritual/laws stuff does not take control of the MJ denominations like it did with many other forms of Christianity. It's really up to this generation of MJs to make a change.

So you are basically warning us against rendering the commandments of G-d to none-effect by traditions???

 

[anisavta]

I know Kaddish is Aramaic. Anyone know if Alenu or Amidah was origionally in Hebrew or Aramaic?

 

[yonah_mishael]

So how does one determine which language is being spoken of? Is this a problem in the Greek? What I mean is, because they didn't see a difference in the languages? Like Eenglish and the King's English? Or American English vs UK English?

They are two different languages, but the Greeks didn't care about either one, and given that Hebrew was basically dead as a spoken language, they just called the Jewish version of Aramaic by the same name - the language spoken by the Hebrew people.

You can tell which one is referred to only when a word is transliterated (such as "Golgotha," which is Aramaic and not Hebrew). All of the place names you mentioned above are Aramaic words, not Hebrew words.

Additionally, it can be assumed that the posting above Jesus' cross was in Aramaic, not in Hebrew - so that people could read it. The people did not generally speak or read Hebrew as a fluent language.

 

[xDenax]

It's my understanding that there is no conversion to the Messianic faith.
One simply accepts it's beliefs. That the basic tenets of Christianity and the
Messianic faith are the same, the difference is in observing or not observing the Torah.
Perhaps I'm wrong?

That has been my understanding too. Have they started going to a mikveh now? Do the MJ congregations have a mikveh?

 

[yonah_mishael]

And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' Acts 26:14

I hate to say it but that doesn't conclusively prove Jesus spoke the Hebrew language of the OT. There's lots of linguistic evidence to show that Paul is using this term as a way to tell King Agrippa that Jesus spoke the common tongue of the Hebrew people as it was spoken at that time (Aramaic/Chaldee). Day-to-day He almost certainly spoke Aramaic and probably some Greek.

The point is that now He speaks any language He wants, to all people, through His Word and the Spirit, so its really not all that important to know what He spoke then, although it might be interesting.

Exactly.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I know Kaddish is Aramaic. Anyone know if Alenu or Amidah was origionally in Hebrew or Aramaic?

Aleinu and Amidah were always in Hebrew.

Kaddish is in Aramaic because it was not part of the prayer service itself but served as a division between sections of the prayer service, and it was to be understood by the people.

 

[ChavaK]

Have they started going to a mikveh now? Do the MJ congregations have a mikveh?

On a different Messianic site I read where they go to mikveh, but not for
the traditional reasons Jews do. Rather it seems to be a form of baptism.

 

[yonah_mishael]

So, again, I haven't seen anything at any point to indicate that Jesus spoke Hebrew. Originally, I also thought that, until I learned more about the situation in Israel at that time. If there could be anything that actually showed transliterated Hebrew put into Jesus' mouth, then I would buy it. Rather, every time it quotes Jesus saying something ἑβραϊστί, the words are Aramaic. There isn't an exception in the New Testament, which seems to be telling.

 

[yonah_mishael]

On a different Messianic site I read where they go to mikveh, but not for
the traditional reasons Jews do. Rather it seems to be a form of baptism.

Do they build there own or go to Jewish mikvaot?

 

[ChavaK]

Do they build there own or go to Jewish mikvaot?

They aren't allowed to use the Jewish mikvehs and they
don't have their own. It seems they are using rivers. Could be a bit chilly
in the winter!

 

[ContraMundum]

So you are basically warning us against rendering the commandments of G-d to none-effect by traditions???

Well picked up!

 

[ContraMundum]

That has been my understanding too. Have they started going to a mikveh now? Do the MJ congregations have a mikveh?

In the NT baptism is the "mikveh" of conversion. (Yonah will note the usage of the Greek in Titus 3:5 for his own interest!)

However, membership in a denominational congregation may require more than just being baptized.

 

[yedida]

No. The Greek term ἑβραϊστί means both "in Hebrew" and "in Aramaic." It's the same word. I can demonstrate that to you, if you like - but all of the dictionaries say the same thing even without having to demonstrate it.

So much for Eng. translations!!

 

[yedida]

They are two different languages, but the Greeks didn't care about either one, and given that Hebrew was basically dead as a spoken language, they just called the Jewish version of Aramaic by the same name - the language spoken by the Hebrew people.

You can tell which one is referred to only when a word is transliterated (such as "Golgotha," which is Aramaic and not Hebrew). All of the place names you mentioned above are Aramaic words, not Hebrew words.

Additionally, it can be assumed that the posting above Jesus' cross was in Aramaic, not in Hebrew - so that people could read it. The people did not generally speak or read Hebrew as a fluent language.

Simple when you explain it, but I'd have never thought of that on my own. You're much needed here, my friend.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yonah will note the usage of the Greek in Titus 3:5 for his own interest!

Thanks for that.