Messianic History

[Truthfrees]

I'm not sure what you're saying Hoshiyya.

Are you saying the Judaism the Apostles taught and practised wasn't Messianic Judaism? Judaism that included Yeshua as Messiah?

What were they practising then?

Are you disagreeing with the label "MJ", or the existence of Messianics that practised Judaism?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'm not sure what you're saying Hoshiyya.

Are you saying the Judaism the Apostles taught and practised wasn't Messianic Judaism? Judaism that included Yeshua as Messiah?

What were they practising then?

Are you disagreeing with the label "MJ", or the existence of Messianics that practised Judaism?

I din't mention the apostles or Yeshua.

I am saying that alot of what has been presented as "messianic history" in threads like these are spurious and speculative things, fantastical stories about a golden age of MJ lasting for a thousand years in Iraq for example and then disappearing without leaving a trace. Like the Nephites and Lamanites of Mormonism, ie chimeras of the mind's creation.

MJ as we know it today arose less than 100 years ago, in the Western world. It is probably the closest thing to the religion of Yeshua, besides Judaism itself, but is obviously a product of its time as well.
It is my religion, because I think it is the closest I can get to the teachings of Yeshua. But the full truth will never be known until we see him. I'm sure we will all need to revise a few things. I'm sure we all have flaws, maybe even major flaws, in our understanding.

I don't think MJ needs lies (a fictional "golden age" in the past, suppressed and undiscoverable today, like with the Nephites' history) to support it. A house built on fiction is bound to fall. To impute onto MJ a history it does not have is ... dangerous and stupid.

Wish we didn't have the need to look for our history. I wish our history was as obvious and undisputable as Jewish or Chinese or British history. But it is not. And making things up, inventing history, does no good.

 

[visionary]

There is no gaps of where followers that did not fit this description with these two qualities.. keeping the commandments and having the faith in Yeshua as the Messiah. ...

These are the saints.. These are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua.

We do not have a void history for 1800 years where there were none who did not fit that description. God has always had a remnant who faithfully are the fulfillment of His Words.

 

[visionary]

History is written by the victors because they have destroyed everything else. .. In that victor often portray the group they slaughter by the very things they hated about them.. and this is often where and why we know they existed ..

 

[JeffTheLearner]

You can read the accounts at this link here and muster up a good amount of info: Early Church Fathers - Additional Works in English Translation unavailable elsewhere online

...sad to say but 400 years of brutal persecutions from Roman, and Eastern tyrants did a very thorough job at removing much evidence of what was originally taught along with removing evidence of their institutions, also read The Martyrs Mirror (if you skim over the rants against infant baptism and re baptizing its not a bad book for finding info sources leading to rabbit trails for info)

I say Maricon of Sinope prevaled and his "Christians" won over Rome as Orthodoxy ...many writings of the remaining assembly heads were worried greatly that his doctrines won over the people of Rome. But even the Apostles were worried that the assemblies were being infiltrated and invaded in their days. I don't think the gentile assemblies did much better than the Jewish nation. It did not take long for many great compromises in foundational doctrines and practice to be sold off in hopes of evading Roman persecution. Before then you seen an assembly that was not patriotic to Rome, void of a zeal in nationalism ...but 400 years later the doctrines of the assemblies twisted Rome into a kingdom of heaven on earth. Apparently they abandoned Messiahs words warning that you can't gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles ...but it is what it is. We have The Word so the blueprints remain, if only we could abandon the ways of men and exalt Yahs ways.

 

[visionary]

Rabbi Shimon ben Tzemach Duran (1361-1444), known as the Rashbatz. He did not view the institution of Christianity positively. Rather, he wrote his views about Yeshua as part of a polemic against Christianity. One of his main arguments against Christianity was that they did not even understand their own teacher or his first disciples. Why should he become a Christian…n and forsake the Torah, when Yeshua and his disciples (including Paul) were Jews who kept it faithfully.The Rashbatz not only demonstrates a remarkable knowledge of the New Testament, but his willingness to see it in Jewish terms gives him the ability to understand the Apostolic Writings In a way that many Christians cannot. Read more about him here....

https://lawofmessiah.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/rashbatz-and-the-new-testament/

 

[FredVB]

Indeed what this Rashbatz wrote is right, and the Christianity that he saw around him was with the opinions of those believers altered from what Christianity was originally, which is shown from what can be found in the new testament of the Bible. But there is nothing from this that shows he became a believer in Yeshua, as Christ, the Messiah. He didn't, did he? His basis to not come to that faith was then the opinions of those professing as Christians around him in his time, without acknowledging faith should be had in what was found in that new testament, and with prophetic fulfillment that was needed for the Torah, writings, and what was said from prophets in the Bible, though it was understood that believers in that period when starting from Yeshua's time teaching and leading disciples on lived in the way he saw he should.

 

[visionary]

Indeed what this Rashbatz wrote is right, and the Christianity that he saw around him was with the opinions of those believers altered from what Christianity was originally, which is shown from what can be found in the new testament of the Bible. But there is nothing from this that shows he became a believer in Yeshua, as Christ, the Messiah. He didn't, did he? His basis to not come to that faith was then the opinions of those professing as Christians around him in his time, without acknowledging faith should be had in what was found in that new testament, and with prophetic fulfillment that was needed for the Torah, writings, and what was said from prophets in the Bible, though it was understood that believers in that period when starting from Yeshua's time teaching and leading disciples on lived in the way he saw he should.

We have no reports of him ever leaving the faith of Judaism.

 

[The Lone Ranger]

Rabbi Shimon ben Tzemach Duran (1361-1444), known as the Rashbatz. He did not view the institution of Christianity positively. Rather, he wrote his views about Yeshua as part of a polemic against Christianity. One of his main arguments against Christianity was that they did not even understand their own teacher or his first disciples. Why should he become a Christian…n and forsake the Torah, when Yeshua and his disciples (including Paul) were Jews who kept it faithfully.The Rashbatz not only demonstrates a remarkable knowledge of the New Testament, but his willingness to see it in Jewish terms gives him the ability to understand the Apostolic Writings In a way that many Christians cannot. Read more about him here....

https://lawofmessiah.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/rashbatz-and-the-new-testament/

I think, so far, that there was alot of corruption inside the Temple, and many Jews did not want to participate in Temple activities because of the sinful corruption. Much like we see in the RCC, with molestation, and such...

 

[yonah_mishael]

After the destruction of the Temple, only two "Judaisms" survived: the Pharisees and the Nazarenes. In Yahweh, the followers of the Pharisaic halacha (Jewish Law, literally "The Way To Walk") gathered under the leadership of Yokhahan Ben-Zakkai and reorganized the Sanhedrin. In Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), the followers of the Nazarene halacha gathered under the leadership of Simeon, who replaced Ya’acov HaTzaddik ("James the Just"), brother of Yahshua, in 63 CE.

I think you mean that the Sanhedrin was reconvened in Yavneh, not in Yahweh.

Additionally, I'd love to see any historical evidence aside from conjecture regarding the progressive of leadership in the early Jerusalem congregation.

 

[AbbaLove]

I think you mean that the Sanhedrin was reconvened in Yavneh, not in Yahweh.

Additionally, I'd love to see any historical evidence aside from conjecture regarding the progressive of leadership in the early Jerusalem congregation.

Are you suggesting that the Jewish Council at Jamnia was not sanctioned/sanctified by Yahweh?

The great Rabbi's at the council at Yavneh in 90 AD. transformed the Yom Kippur sacrificial service. They proclaimed that ritual prayer and the performance of good deeds was enough to replace the sacrifices.

The rabbis shifted the religious life from the temple to the synagogues and instituted the "three T's":

1. “Tefilah,” (prayer),
2. “Teshuvah,” (repentance) and
3. “Tzedakah” (charity) as a means of atonement to replace animal sacrifices.

Interesting Commentary: http://www.academia.edu/6811953/The...Old_Testament_Canon_and_New_Testament_Studies

 

[Hoshiyya]

He's suggesting Yavneh is spelled Yavneh. There's no city called Yahweh.

Of course, you were fully aware of that, AbbaLove, so I can only wonder what lies behind your "question".

 

[Lulav]

He's suggesting Yavneh is spelled Yavneh. There's no city called Yahweh.

Of course, you were fully aware of that, AbbaLove, so I can only wonder what lies behind your "question".

Me too.

Also the English change to using 'j' over 'y'.

 

[AbbaLove]

"After the destruction of the Temple, only two "Judaisms" survived: the Pharisees and the Nazarenes. In Yahweh, the followers of the Pharisaic halacha (Jewish Law, literally "The Way To Walk") gathered under the leadership of Yokhahan Ben-Zakkai and reorganized the Sanhedrin. In Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), the followers of the Nazarene halacha gathered under the leadership of Simeon, who replaced Ya’acov HaTzaddik ("James the Just"), brother of Yahshua, in 63 CE."
(posted by Vis)​

There's no city called Yahweh. Of course, you were fully aware of that, AbbaLove, so I can only wonder what lies behind your "question".

I interrupted Vis' post as is ... meaning that the Jewish followers of Pharisaic halacha put their trust in Yahweh; whereas, the Jewish followers of Nazarene halacha put their faith in Mashiach Yahshua. Some see Yahshua HaMashiach as Yah; while others see Him as the Son of Yah. Likewise, Some prefer using the word "trust" while others prefer the word "faith" ... trust seems to be the preferred word in the OT; whereas faith seems to be the preferred word in the NT, for example ...

Proverbs 3: 5-6 (KJV)
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Hebrews 11:6 (CJB)
And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV )
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


In the eleventh chapter of Hebrews, Paul's discourse is about faith/trust. In the Complete Jewish Bible trust is used ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=CJB
Whereas in other translations (aka Christian) faith is used.

The difference between putting your trust in Yahweh and putting your faith in Yahshua in some respects is like the difference between Pharisaic halacha (trust in Yahweh) and Nazarene halacha (faith in Yahshua).

Note: If we are going to disect Vis' post we need to consider the possibility that she copied it word for word from another link. Or is it possible that Vis now prefers Yahshua to Yeshua or Y'shua?

 

[Shimshon]

Note: If we are going to disect Vis' post we need to consider the possibility that she copied it word for word from another link. Or is it possible that Vis now prefers Yahshua to Yeshua or Y'shua?

Yes, I've noticed myself that she copy and pastes a lot of things without any link to indicate the source. I've learned to copy the section in question and search in Google for it and you'll usually find it online.

 

[The Lone Ranger]

I like Jehova, over Yeshua. What happenned to Yehoshua?

 

[AbbaLove]

I like Jehova, over Yeshua. What happenned to Yehoshua?

Was that a typo (Jehova)? What about Yehovah?

 

[The Lone Ranger]

Was that a typo (Jehova)? What about Yehovah?

Well, you see Y(J)ehova is my God. HE is so awesome! Chris Tomlin sings a song called Indescribable that matches HIM fairly........ I wonder if he is related to Lilly Tomlin?

 

[Alex Tennent]

Greetings to all here! I had posted this information on another thread and was requested by Visionary to add it in here. One huge aspect of Messianic history that has been handed down falsely by Rome was the Quartodecimanian history. For 1700 years or so, Rome portrayed that these people were strange heretics, when in reality they were the Messianic fellowships most closely aligned to the true roots (i.e. the Jewish prophets, the Messiah and the apostles, Eph 2:20). They had carried down the truths from the first-century believers and did not want to go along with the new Roman concepts (that Mary was God's mother, and that they should drop any remembrance of Passover and instead celebrate Easter/Astarte, etc). So these Jewish Messianic believers were branded as heretics by Rome. For anyone that might like to read that chapter it can be found below. It is titled "The Jewish Disconnect and the Fourteenthers." The term “Fourteenthers” is what Quartodeciman means in English. If you read most commentaries today under this term it will say they were “heretics.” However in reality, they were the Messianic believers who continued to keep the 14th day Passover as a special event, knowing that the Messiah had finished the work on this day. This chapter shows that history for the first time in the proper light: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_SettingTable_1.pdf

 

[visionary]

Thank you