Messianic History

[Alex Tennent]

Very nice words Visionary. Maybe there should be a thread on peoples testimonies, I always like to hear what others have experienced.

 

[BukiRob]

BukiRob I mostly agree with you but would like to add one point. A "MJ" to me is simply any Jew who believes in the Messiah. A "Messianic" is essentially meaning the same thing as a "Christian", one comes from the Greek and one from the Hebrew, and both have come to mean one who believes in and follows Jesus/Yeshua. If a Jew who lives in one city attends a Messianic fellowship then moves to a city with no Messianic fellowship, so then attends a spirit filled church, to me that man is still a Messianic Jew, because his Jewishness certainly doesn't change, he is just attending a fellowship called a "church." So in that sense I believe there were always (Messianic) Jews, because there were probably always those of Jewish lineage who either stayed at home and read the scriptures (believing in the Messiah), or assimilated into a church. That's how I see it anyway. It's similar to how some Jews say that other Jews are no longer Jewish after believing in Yeshua. How can you be less Jewish for following the long promised Jewish Messiah, as foretold by all the Jewish prophets?! I also like the term completed Jew. If we consider what a Jew was in the bible it was somewhat fluid. The term comes first from those of the tribe of Judah, and then to those living in the land of Judea. With most of the other tribes being scattered I think those who were from other tribes (yet still following the lead tribe, Judah) still called themselves Jews. Those from the tribe of Levi (and those today called Levi, Levine, Levinson, etc) are still considered Jewish even though they are not from the tribe of Judah. But of course in those days the tribe of Levi was in the land of Judea. Paul said his lineage was from the tribe of Benjamin, and that he was from a city outside Israel (Tarsus) but he still said he was a Jew (Acts 21:39). Just adding some thoughts to consider!

I guess I cant really agree with you. While it may be true that a Jewish believer can indeed be a part of any "Christian Church" that is a pretty wide difference between that, and a JEWISH Synagogue that believes Yeshua is Messiah.

I see MJ as practice of both Jew and Gentiles who believe Yeshua was/is the promised Messiah and observe the customs of Judaism as closely as practicality allows primarily though the acknowledgement and observances of the Feast days. The observance of the Sabbaths as well as the practices that most any reformed or conservative observant Jew would recognize in their synagogue with the exception of the inclusion of Yeshua as messiah.

You dont get any of that in the gentile church which has for the most part divorced itself completely from its roots.

I consistently get told by well meaning but misinformed/ignorant believers tell me that I am trying to attain salvation though works that pretty much tells you where the gentile church is...

 

[Alex Tennent]

I guess I cant really agree with you. While it may be true that a Jewish believer can indeed be a part of any "Christian Church" that is a pretty wide difference between that, and a JEWISH Synagogue that believes Yeshua is Messiah.

I see MJ as practice of both Jew and Gentiles who believe Yeshua was/is the promised Messiah and observe the customs of Judaism as closely as practicality allows primarily though the acknowledgement and observances of the Feast days. The observance of the Sabbaths as well as the practices that most any reformed or conservative observant Jew would recognize in their synagogue with the exception of the inclusion of Yeshua as messiah.

You dont get any of that in the gentile church which has for the most part divorced itself completely from its roots.

I consistently get told by well meaning but misinformed/ignorant believers tell me that I am trying to attain salvation though works that pretty much tells you where the gentile church is...

BukiRob I sure agree that the Gentile churches have missed out on a lot by not being more aware of the Feasts. The typology involved is so important for all believers today. To me, someone is Messianic if they follow the Messiah and what he actually taught (not the Roman grid handed down). There was a time when most all believers attended the Catholic Church (Catholic means universal). When the Protestants found that much of what the RCC was teaching was not in the scriptures they said "back to the bible" and no longer wanted to be called Catholic, but Christian. When I found the truths that harmonized the gospels and showed that the Christian Communion ritual was not from the first-century Jews I knew there was something not right in the "Christian" church I attended. Not that everyone has to believe everything just right, but when I saw the traditions that came from the RCC were more important than truth from the Messiah I found myself feeling more Jewish, and considered myself Messianic. Although I do not personally follow the feasts to the extent of doing them, I do think it is very important to know them and to understand all the typology they show forth, and what they mean for us today, and how God will fulfill things. For instance we saw the Passover and Pentecost spiritually fulfilled (by Christ our Passover, and the Holy Spirit being poured out on Pentecost) but we have not seen the spiritual fulfillment of Sukkot (Tabernacles, the Ingathering of the fruit, etc..). I certainly don't think anyone keeping the feasts is doing something they shouldn't be, and for Jewish people I think it could be a very powerful reconnecting to their roots. I think Paul and the Messiah would want those who keep the feast and those who don't to see each side as shades of the same group, because we are all members one of another, members of the one spiritual body.

 

[visionary]

Hey Alex.. have you check out this thread to see if there are groups you might consider worthy of further study?

 

[Alex Tennent]

Hey Alex.. have you check out this thread to see if there are groups you might consider worthy of further study?

Visionary, thank you for that. Do you mean I should look further back in this thread we are now talking in (Messianic History), to see other groups that have posted here previously? Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean? And if you have any that you recommend I would be glad to hear. : )

 

[visionary]

Very nice words Visionary. Maybe there should be a thread on peoples testimonies, I always like to hear what others have experienced.

Great Idea...http://www.christianforums.com/threads/amazing-testimony.7715255/

 

[visionary]

Visionary, thank you for that. Do you mean I should look further back in this thread we are now talking in (Messianic History), to see other groups that have posted here previously? Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean? And if you have any that you recommend I would be glad to hear. : )

Yeah.. check out the history of believers that I have posted about on this thread..

 

[anna ~ grace]

Check out the book by Ray Pritz called "Nazarene Jewish Christianity". It is kind of expensive, but may be the most complete text out there covering the original Messianic Jews.

I'm not MJ or Torah observant, but I feel for you guys. I'm a non-Nicene Christian who disagrees with much of the Nicene Creed, and the idea of God being Triune. I feel like the history of both our confessions kind of got villianized, suppressed, lost, and burnt. But the best news is, God's Messiah has never changed. He loves Jew and Gentile, Trinitarian and Subordinationist, and His Words will never pass away.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Check out the book by Ray Pritz called "Nazarene Jewish Christianity". It is kind of expensive, but may be the most complete text out there covering the original Messianic Jews.

I'm not MJ or Torah observant, but I feel for you guys. I'm a non-Nicene Christian who disagrees with much of the Nicene Creed, and the idea of God being Triune. I feel like the history of both our confessions kind of got villianized, suppressed, lost, and burnt. But the best news is, God's Messiah has never changed. He loves Jew and Gentile, Trinitarian and Subordinationist, and His Words will never pass away.

Hello there Gracia,
Thank you for your nice words and welcome to the thread. : )
I am curious if the author you mention says anything about the "Fourteenthers" (i.e. Quartodecimans) in his history? Can you give us a nutshell version of what he believes the early Messianic Jews believed on various doctrines? I'm guessing he believes that the "Trinity" was not from the early Messianic Jews, but what does that author believe on what day the Messiah was crucified on, or what day he was resurrected on?

My book (The Messianic Feast, Moving Beyond the Ritual) has one chapter that also covers this early Messianic Jewish history in what I believe is a very unique way that has not been previously understood (due to Roman beliefs handed down). If you are interested to hear my take on that Messianic history I would be interested to hear your thoughts. You can read that chapter for free at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_SettingTable_1.pdf

Thank you again Gracia, blessings and all the best to you!
Alex

PS when you say "Subordinationist" as opposed to "Trinitarian" are you meaning one God, or that one member of the Trinity (the son) is still a God but is subordinated to the Father? Is that what Ray Pritz is saying, what does he believe the Messianics believed on that?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Hello there Gracia,
Thank you for your nice words and welcome to the thread. : )
I am curious if the author you mention says anything about the "Fourteenthers" (i.e. Quartodecimans) in his history? Can you give us a nutshell version of what he believes the early Messianic Jews believed on various doctrines? I'm guessing he believes that the "Trinity" was not from the early Messianic Jews, but what does that author believe on what day the Messiah was crucified on, or what day he was resurrected on?

My book (The Messianic Feast, Moving Beyond the Ritual) has one chapter that also covers this early Messianic Jewish history in what I believe is a very unique way that has not been previously understood (due to Roman beliefs handed down). If you are interested to hear my take on that Messianic history I would be interested to hear your thoughts. You can read that chapter for free at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_SettingTable_1.pdf

Thank you again Gracia, blessings and all the best to you!
Alex

PS when you say "Subordinationist" as opposed to "Trinitarian" are you meaning one God, or that one member of the Trinity (the son) is still a God but is subordinated to the Father? Is that what Ray Pritz is saying, what does he believe the Messianics believed on that?

Alex, have you ever heard of the Desposyni?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, Alex ~

Shalom, and God bless you! I presume most Messianic Jews would have continued to calculate the feast of the Resurrection of Christ by Jewish as opposed to Empirical Roman / Western reckoning, but can't be sure. I know debates as to when to celebrate Resurrection / Easter were part of Nicea, as Eastern Christians wanted to calculate based on Jewish holidays, whereas others felt it best to calculate based on the first moon, even if this didn't coincide with the Jewish Passover that year. Which is why we're celebrating Easter before the Passover this year, because the Western preference won.

My understanding is that there is One God, the Father, and that Jesus is His Messiah, Servant, Word, and Son. I have no problem saying "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and even confess that these three bear witness together, but can not say that there is One Godhead in three persons, as there is absolutely no Scriptural mandate for this that I can see. However, I do pray to the Father and to the Son, and honor the Son even as I would honor the Father, who alone is God.

I don't have a problem with Trinitarians, but just feel that Western Christianity would have turned out much "nicer" had folks just stayed with One God and One Lord and Son, and kept further speculation to themselves.

Hello there Gracia,
Thank you for your nice words and welcome to the thread. : )
I am curious if the author you mention says anything about the "Fourteenthers" (i.e. Quartodecimans) in his history? Can you give us a nutshell version of what he believes the early Messianic Jews believed on various doctrines? I'm guessing he believes that the "Trinity" was not from the early Messianic Jews, but what does that author believe on what day the Messiah was crucified on, or what day he was resurrected on?

My book (The Messianic Feast, Moving Beyond the Ritual) has one chapter that also covers this early Messianic Jewish history in what I believe is a very unique way that has not been previously understood (due to Roman beliefs handed down). If you are interested to hear my take on that Messianic history I would be interested to hear your thoughts. You can read that chapter for free at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_SettingTable_1.pdf

Thank you again Gracia, blessings and all the best to you!
Alex

PS when you say "Subordinationist" as opposed to "Trinitarian" are you meaning one God, or that one member of the Trinity (the son) is still a God but is subordinated to the Father? Is that what Ray Pritz is saying, what does he believe the Messianics believed on that?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Alex ~

As far as Nazarene Jewish theology / Christology goes, I'm not sure. Catholic observers have described groups of Law-keeping Judeo-Christians in parts of the Mediterranean who believed that Messiah is a creation of the Father and honored in similar ways to how God is honored, so seems likely that they were non-Trinitarians in the classical Western sense.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Hey, Alex ~

Shalom, and God bless you! I presume most Messianic Jews would have continued to calculate the feast of the Resurrection of Christ by Jewish as opposed to Empirical Roman / Western reckoning, but can't be sure. I know debates as to when to celebrate Resurrection / Easter were part of Nicea, as Eastern Christians wanted to calculate based on Jewish holidays, whereas others felt it best to calculate based on the first moon, even if this didn't coincide with the Jewish Passover that year. Which is why we're celebrating Easter before the Passover this year, because the Western preference won.

The Eastern Churches celebrate Pascha on the Sunday (actually Saturday after sunset) after Passover (this year is May 1st).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Alex ~

As far as Nazarene Jewish theology / Christology goes, I'm not sure. Catholic observers have described groups of Law-keeping Judeo-Christians in parts of the Mediterranean who believed that Messiah is a creation of the Father and honored in similar ways to how God is honored, so seems likely that they were non-Trinitarians in the classical Western sense.

We know that Messiah existed eternally with the Father before His Incarnation.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Hey, Alex ~

Shalom, and God bless you! I presume most Messianic Jews would have continued to calculate the feast of the Resurrection of Christ by Jewish as opposed to Empirical Roman / Western reckoning, but can't be sure. I know debates as to when to celebrate Resurrection / Easter were part of Nicea, as Eastern Christians wanted to calculate based on Jewish holidays, whereas others felt it best to calculate based on the first moon, even if this didn't coincide with the Jewish Passover that year. Which is why we're celebrating Easter before the Passover this year, because the Western preference won.

My understanding is that there is One God, the Father, and that Jesus is His Messiah, Servant, Word, and Son. I have no problem saying "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and even confess that these three bear witness together, but can not say that there is One Godhead in three persons, as there is absolutely no Scriptural mandate for this that I can see. However, I do pray to the Father and to the Son, and honor the Son even as I would honor the Father, who alone is God.

I don't have a problem with Trinitarians, but just feel that Western Christianity would have turned out much "nicer" had folks just stayed with One God and One Lord and Son, and kept further speculation to themselves.

Shalom Gracia and thank you! That is very nice that you know all that pre Nicean history, and also your belief as to the Trinity vs one God and Father. I think I pretty much agree with what you said. The only thing I would see differently is equal honor for the Father and Son. Although I see that the Messiah deserves huge honor and great respect, even he said his father was greater than he was, and as you say God is God alone. But I think we see things very similar on all this. I am also guessing that you see "Holy Spirit" as Ruach Ha Kodesh (meaning Spirit the Holy) as just being another way to refer to the Father, and not a third member of a Roman Trinity?
God bless you dear one!
Alex

 

[Alex Tennent]

We know that Messiah existed eternally with the Father before His Incarnation.

HaDerekh I think this thread is mainly speaking of Messianic history, not the Roman beliefs?

Also I had not heard of the word "Desposyni" but just looked it up as meaning those from Christs family (his brothers and sisters). What were you thinking along this line?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, Alex ~

Shalom, Brother! On the Holy Spirit, I just say that the Spirit comes from the Father and the Son, and helps us to follow the Son. I don't describe the Spirit as a third "person" who we need to pray to, praise, invoke, or honor. The Spirit acts as more of an internalized GPS system for following Christ, praying, and recognizing and repenting of sin. Like, no one thinks of their own spirit as an independently living being inside of them, but as essentially their own self. That's basically how I understand the Spirit of God.

Shalom Gracia and thank you! That is very nice that you know all that pre Nicean history, and also your belief as to the Trinity vs one God and Father. I think I pretty much agree with what you said. The only thing I would see differently is equal honor for the Father and Son. Although I see that the Messiah deserves huge honor and great respect, even he said his father was greater than he was, and as you say God is God alone. But I think we see things very similar on all this. I am also guessing that you see "Holy Spirit" as Ruach Ha Kodesh (meaning Spirit the Holy) as just being another way to refer to the Father, and not a third member of a Roman Trinity?
God bless you dear one!
Alex

Shalom Gracia and thank you! That is very nice that you know all that pre Nicean history, and also your belief as to the Trinity vs one God and Father. I think I pretty much agree with what you said. The only thing I would see differently is equal honor for the Father and Son. Although I see that the Messiah deserves huge honor and great respect, even he said his father was greater than he was, and as you say God is God alone. But I think we see things very similar on all this. I am also guessing that you see "Holy Spirit" as Ruach Ha Kodesh (meaning Spirit the Holy) as just being another way to refer to the Father, and not a third member of a Roman Trinity?
God bless you dear one!
Alex

 

[anna ~ grace]

Hey, Sir. The controversy is whether or not Messiah was created by the Father, prior to the Father creating all things through Him. I would tend to lean towards "no" on this, but if one thinks of Messiah's proceeding forth from the Father as His being "created", one might be able to stretch that definition a bit. Based on what Catholics describe of the beliefs of some groups possibly linked to the original Nazarenes, at least some seemed to regard Messiah as a creation, the first creation, of God the Father. But what this meant to them is perhaps impossible to know.

We know that Messiah existed eternally with the Father before His Incarnation.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Hey, Alex ~

Shalom, Brother! On the Holy Spirit, I just say that the Spirit comes from the Father and the Son, and helps us to follow the Son. I don't describe the Spirit as a third "person" who we need to pray to, praise, invoke, or honor. The Spirit acts as more of an internalized GPS system for following Christ, praying, and recognizing and repenting of sin. Like, no one thinks of their own spirit as an independently living being inside of them, but as essentially their own self. That's basically how I understand the Spirit of God.

Hi Gracia! Sounds like a good explanation to me! Keep up the good work sister, you are a positive force for the Lord and His truth. Lord bless you!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

HaDerekh I think this thread is mainly speaking of Messianic history, not the Roman beliefs?

Also I had not heard of the word "Desposyni" but just looked it up as meaning those from Christs family (his brothers and sisters). What were you thinking along this line?

That is not a "Roman" belief LOL! It is right in Scripture!