Messianic History

[yonah_mishael]

The big question- will the Messiah have Twitter?

If he comes from Israel, the answer is yes! Unless he lives in Meah Shearim!

 

[Dave-W]

The big question- will the Messiah have Twitter?

What makes you think that the Messiah would be a twit? Sounds insulting to me.

 

[ContraMundum]

What makes you think that the Messiah would be a twit? Sounds insulting to me.

That would be bad grammar on your part then. Tweet, not twit would be the right word here.

Ask your kids....they'll set you straight on this jargon.

 

[Desert Rose]

The big question- will the Messiah have Twitter?

And if he is still in carpeting and uses it to grow business - he will be posting in Chinese

 

[Truthfrees]

This is such an awesome find, thanks to ron4shua who lead me to it while discussing another aspect. The very fact that it was mentioned by the early believers lends itself to the practice of multiple mikvahs.
Maybe we all should "mikvah" pray in every cleaning practice we do whether in shower, tub or any body of water. Giving all the glory to God in devotion that extends to another area and aspect of our life... cleanliness.

Estimated 40-137 AD Rabbi Akba is the one attributed to being a leading contributor to the Mishnah and Midrash Halakha. He is referred to in the Talmud as "Rosh la-Chachamim" (Head of all the Sages). He believed Bar Kokba to be the Messiah. He accordingly limited the Messianic age to forty years, as being within the scope of a man's life. Akba has been said to have taken an very active role in the Bar Kokba revolt of 132-136 AD with his disciples numbering 12,000 (Gen. R. lxi. 3), 24,000 (Yeb. 62b), and 48,000 (Ned. 50a). The Bar Kokhba revolt was a rebellion of the Jews of Judea Province, led by Simon bar Kokhba, against the Roman Empire. He suffered martyrdom on account of his transgression of Hadrian's edicts against the practice and the teaching of the Jewish religion. Jewish sources relate that he was subjected to a Roman torture where his skin was flayed with iron combs.

Now why would this man be important to Messianic Judaism? One.. He is very influential in writings, in his powerful position, and what he does with it towards the new fledgling group of Messianic followers of Yeshua. For those not familiar with the schism that separated Messianic Judaism from the rest of Judaism, this Bar Kokhba revolt was it. Yeshua followers were not going to side with this false messiah and join the rebellion. It was at that point it became clear to the Bar Kokhba revolters that "if you are not for us then you are against us".

Let me back up a moment and explain something. "Rabbi" means teacher and as Yonah pointed out "My Master". The concept of "Rabbi" is central to the Talmud's idea of eternal life. Without a "Rabbi", one cannot possibly acquire eternal life, according to Talmud. Talmud declares that all Rabbis are infallible. Akiba's Talmud also declares that Yeshua is but one of 70 rabbis, and He must go along with what the majority says.

But that was not how it started. In around 40 AD the Pharisees, who were at this stage not opposed to the movement, had a wait and see attitude. This is typified by the statement of Rabban Gamaliel, Nassi or head of the Sanhedrin, a great leader of the Pharisees and thus the majority of the Jewish people in

After the destruction of the Temple, only two "Judaisms" survived, the Pharisees and the Nazarenes. The followers of the Pharisaic halacha (Jewish Law, literally "The Way To Walk") gathered under the leadership of Yokhahan Ben-Zakkai and reorganized the Sanhedrin. In Jerusalem, the followers of the Nazarene developed their own halacha and gathered under the leadership of Simeon, who replaced Ya’acov HaTzaddik ("James the Just"), brother of Yeshua, in 63 CE.

The infighting among the Jews over which Messiah culminated the complete split during the revolt. Maccoby's Revolution in Judea gives the inital view that the Nazarenes were labeled as heretics in 90 C.E. His later book, The Mythmaker revises this date to the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt.

Thus a new Jewish sect arose known as the Nazarenes under the leadership of....James, based on the belief in Yeshua's continued Messiahship. The Pharisees did not regard this sect as heretical. Indeed, the Nazarenes were regarded as being within the Pharisee party until about 90 [C.E.].
- (Revolution in Judea, p168)

In about 90 [CE] the Nazarenes were finally expelled from the Jewish Synagogue and became a heretical group in Judaism as well as Gentile Christianity.

From the Encyclopaedia Judaica article "Amidah" (italics by me for emphasis. Note that it was not directed against Gentile-Christians, but Jewish ones, i.e., Nazarenes or Nozerim)

The view, voiced already in some late talmudic sources (e.g., Ber. 28b), that Birkat ha-Minim (benediction 12), introduced in Jabneh by Samuel ha-Katan, at the request of Rabban Gamaliel II, was the added benediction is, therefore, not correct. Nor is there sufficient foundation for the theory that prior to the introduction of this latter benediction the total number was only 17. The sources (e.g., Tosef., Ber. 3:25, et al.) clearly indicate that Samuel did not add a new benediction to those existing up to then, but added either a new point or enlarged on the meaning of a previously known benediction, as Shel Paroshin ("concerning the dissidents") or Shel Resha'im ("concerning the wicked"). He did this by applying it specifically to Jewish heretics. It is generally assumed that this new formulation was meant to force the Judeo-Christians out of the Jewish community; in the Genizah version, the word Nozerim ("Christians") actually occurs. Medieval Christian censorship viewed this paragraph as a malediction directed against all Christians; this accounts for the many changes and "corrections" that were introduced into it.

Further information comes from the Encyclopaedia Judaica article "Birkat Ha-Minim" by Meir Ydit (quoted fully, italics by me for emphasis)

BIRKAT HA-MINIM (Heb. [...], "benediction concerning heretics"), the 12th benediction of the weekday Amidah. This benediction, which varies in wording among the different rites, invokes divine wrath upon "slanderers," "wickedness," "Thine enemies," and the "kingdom of arrogance," and adores [G-d], "who breakest the enemies and humblest the arrogant [sectarians]." Prevailing scholarly opinion, based upon Ecclesiasticus 36:7, holds that this prayer originated during the Syrian-Hellenistic oppression in the time of the Second Temple, and that it was directed against those Jews who collaborated with the enemy. At that time, the prayer was known as the "Benediction to Him Who humbles the arrogant." A century later the imprecation was directed against the Sadducees, and it was designated as the "Benediction concerning the Sadducees." Under Rabban Gamaliel II (first century C.E.) this prayer was invoked against the Judeo-Christian and Gnostic sects and other heretics who were called by the general term min (plural minim). To avoid any suspicion of heresy, the hazzan had to be certain to recite this prayer in public worship. If he omitted it by error, he had to return and recite it, although such a regulation does not apply to any other benediction (Tanh. B., Lev. 2a).

Although some scholars hold that there were only 17 benedictions prior to the inclusion of this prayer into the Amidah, others contend that Birkat ha-Minim was the 19th.

The formulation of this prayer is ascribed to Samuel ha-Katan, who revised its text after it had fallen into oblivion (Ber. 28b). The many different historical situations in which this prayer was used are reflected in the variant readings still extant. The text has been further confused as a result of censorship during the Middle Ages. In geonic times, this prayer was invoked against poshe'im ("sinners") or, as Maimonides read it, against apikoresim ("heretics"), whereas in the Mahzor Salonika and in the Roman Mahzor it refers to meshummadim ("the apostates"). This term was further changed into ve-la-poshe'im, which later became ve-la-malshinim ("slanderers"). In some versions other expressions were substituted for the word minim: e.g., "all doers of iniquity," regardless of origin and nationality. The Sephardi ritual retained minim. Instead of the passage "and all the enemies of Thy people," as in older versions, the modified Ashkenazi and Roman rites read: "and they all." The phrase malkhut zadon ("kingdom of arrogance") by which the Roman Empire was meant, was changed by Amram b. Sheshna (Amram Gaon) into "the arrogant," as in most rites. The concluding phrase "who breakest the enemies and humblest the arrogant" (Siddur Amram Ga'on) was replaced in some versions, by: "who breakest the evildoers" (Siddur Sa'adyah Ga'on and Maimonides). From the historical evidence, it is clear that this prayer was never meant to be directed against non-Jews in general, but rather against Jewish heretics and gentile persecutors of the Jews. Nevertheless Jews were often accused of including a special imprecation against Christians in their statutory prayers. In modern times, the text has further been adjusted and many prayer books substitute the impersonal "slander" and "evil" for "slanderers" and "evil doers." In several Reform rites, the prayer has been modified or omitted.

Jewish Church (the Nazarenes) retained its Jewish identity, functioning as the remnant of Israel in the midst of the Jewish community. By the 7th century, though, Jewish Christianity basicly disappeared.

Nazarenes

There is Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such Messianic Jewish community life existed. Ya-akov (James) wrote to the "twelve tribes scattered among the nations" (James 1:1), giving advice on their community life that he assumed was made up mainly of Jewish followers of Yeshua.

In two places in the Book of Acts, James reveals his emphasis on Messianic Jewish community life. In Acts 21:20, he introduces his expectation that Jews should live as Jews.

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: 'You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.'" (Acts 21:20)

This concept implies that these thousands of believers were identifying with other Jewish believers in community life, in congregational life. In contrast, in Acts 15:19-21, James tells us that Gentiles should not be pressured to live as Jews, though they are permitted to investigate Jewish life if they so desire.

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." (Acts 15:19-21)

Messianic Jewish Movement

Here is a little more information on James the Just. Somehow, perhaps because of his strict observance of the Law, the Pharisees thought they could get James to discourage the people from believing in Yeshua. They asked him to stand at the pinnacle of the temple on Passover and speak. This could easily be the same pinnacle that Satan took Yeshua during the time of temptation. Apparently, James agreed.

They brought him to the top of the temple, and they shouted to him from below:

"Oh, righteous one, in whom we are able to place great confidence; the people are led astray after Yeshua, the crucified one. So declare to us, what is this way, Yeshua?"

Obviously, this wasn't a very wise thing for them to do. James was ready to take full advantage of such a wonderful opportunity as this!

His words are memorable. "Why do you ask me about Yeshua, the Son of Man? He sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and he will soon come on the clouds of heaven!"

The Pharisees were horrified, but the people were not. The began shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David!"

The Pharisees, realizing the awful mistake they'd made, began crying out, "Oh! Oh! The righteous one is also in error!"

You can probably guess that this had little effect on the crowd. So the next obvious thing to do was to push him down from the temple, letting the people know exactly what happens to those who dare to believe in Yeshua.

They climbed the temple as the people shouted, reached the top, and threw James from the pinnacle of the temple. It didn't kill him. He rose to his knees and began to pray for them. "I beg of you, Lord God our Father, forgive them! They do not know what they are doing."

This would not do! The Pharisees on the ground began to stone him as he prayed, while those from the roof rushed down to join the execution.

One of the priests, however, a son of the Rechabites mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet (ch. 35), shouted, "Stop! What are you doing! The righteous one is praying for you."

But it was too late, a club used for beating washed clothes bashed the back of his head and he died.

 

[visionary]

After the destruction of the Temple, only two "Judaisms" survived: the Pharisees and the Nazarenes. In Yahweh, the followers of the Pharisaic halacha (Jewish Law, literally "The Way To Walk") gathered under the leadership of Yokhahan Ben-Zakkai and reorganized the Sanhedrin. In Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), the followers of the Nazarene halacha gathered under the leadership of Simeon, who replaced Yakacov HaTzaddik ("James the Just"), brother of Yahshua, in 63 CE.

 

[visionary]

We know a little about the Nazarenes from Jewish Rabbinic writings, but the more important description of them, although negative, can be found in the writings of the Early "Church Fathers." You see, just as now, the Nazarenes were misunderstood and hated by both the "Church" and Pharisaic Judaism. The fourth century "Church Father" Jerome, described the Nazarenes as "those who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the Old Law" (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14).

 

[visionary]

Another fourth century Church Father, Epiphanius, gave a more detailed description of how the Netzarim were viewed:

"We shall now especially consider heretics who... call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews; for they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings... so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and to the customs of the Jews, except they believe in [Messiah]... They preach that there is but one [Elohim], and his son [Yahshua the Messiah]. But they are very learned in the Hebrew language; for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites, such as circumcision, the Sabbath, and other ceremonies." (Epiphanius; Panarion 29; translated from the Greek).

 

[visionary]

Jewish Community and the Netzarim, and in 90 C.E. "Samuel the Lesser" was commissioned to add to the synagogue prayers of the emerging Temple-less Rabbinic Judaism what came to be called the Birkat haMinim to the Eighteen Benedictions of the Amidah. The Talmud records the event this way:

Our Rabbis taught: Simeon ha-Pakuli arranged the eighteen benedictions in order before Rabban Gamaliel in Yavneh. Said Rabban Gamaliel to the Sages: "Can any one among you frame a benediction relating to the Minim [sectarians]?" Samuel the Lesser arose and composed it. (b.Berakot 29a).

The Birkat haMinim as it appears today reads: And for slanderers let there be no hope, and let all wickedness perish as in a moment; let all thine enemies be speedily cut off, and the dominion of arrogance do you uproot and crush, cast down and humble speedily in our days. Blessed are you, YHVH, who breakest the enemies and humbles the arrogant. But an old copy of the Birkat haMinim found at the Cairo Genizah reads:

For the renegades let there be no hope, and may the arrogant kingdom soon be rooted out in our days, and the Netzarim and the Minim perish as in a moment and be blotted out from the book of life and with the righteous may they not be inscribed. Blessed are you, YHVH, who humbles the arrogant. This benediction was in the form of a curse on the Netzarim, which obviously had the effect of casting them out of the synagogues (Jn. 16:2) since Nazarenes who attended would be expected to recite a curse upon themselves. As Epiphanius records in the fourth century:

Not only do Jewish people have a hatred of [Netzarim]; they even stand up at dawn, at midday, and toward evening, three times a day when they recite their prayers in the synagogues, and curse and anathemize them. Three times a day they say, "Elohim curse the Nazarenes." For they harbor an extra grudge against them, if you please, because despite their Jewishness, they proclaim that [Yahshua] is [Messiah]...(Epiphanius Panarion 29). Nazarene Judaism

 

[visionary]

There is one book that survived burnings, banishment, and condemnation... http://www.scribd.com/doc/40919621/Apollonius-the-Nazarene#scribd Apollonius-the-Nazarene.

I question this one. I thought I should include it because there may be some value to the history of the first and second century religious, theological, and political history.

 

[Hoshiyya]

There basically is no messianic history.

It's like Sami history. It's so well hidden it is like it might as well not exist. You can only find it by setting out specifically to find it and looking very very closely. Whereas for example you cannot go a day without being reminded of the history of Rome or Britain. You can hear about India without going out looking for India. But "Messianics" ?

You would never know they existed if it weren't for some recently sprung-up websites.

 

[visionary]

There basically is no messianic history.

It's like Sami history. It's so well hidden it is like it might as well not exist. You can only find it by setting out specifically to find it and looking very very closely. Whereas for example you cannot go a day without being reminded of the history of Rome or Britain. You can hear about India without going out looking for India. But "Messianics" ?

You would never know they existed if it weren't for some recently sprung-up websites.

Well squashed,,.... writtings from them have been burned,and they have persecution, chased, hated, and vilified for centuries, ... but remnants remain if you look for them.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Well squashed,,.... writtings from them have been burned,and they have persecution, chased, hated, and vilified for centuries, ... but remnants remain if you look for them.

That's my point. For whatever reason, they are not there.

Either there was nothing to squash, or it got squashed. The point is that at the end of the day, you cannot stumble over it accidentally like you do with certain other major cultures. It's like Nephites. You only find proof of Nephites if you specifically LOOK for it...

We CANNOT be Mormons. The Mormons have a lot of proof for Nephites ... in their mind. "The proof is all there, but it got squashed!"

 

[visionary]

That's my point. For whatever reason, they are not there.

Either there was nothing to squash, or it got squashed. The point is that at the end of the day, you cannot stumble over it accidentally like you do with certain other major cultures. It's like Nephites. You only find proof of Nephites if you specifically LOOK for it...

We CANNOT be Mormons. The Mormons have a lot of proof for Nephites ... in their mind. "The proof is all there, but it got squashed!"

Given that this thread which is dedicated to the lives of those who were obedient to God and had the faith of Yeshua/Jesus throughout history are gathered and posted here. I would say that there is actually a lot of evidence of their existence.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Given that this thread which is dedicated to the lives of those who were obedient to God and had the faith of Yeshua/Jesus throughout history are gathered and posted here. I would say that there is actually a lot of evidence of their existence.

I've looked at some things in this thread, and a LOT of it is spurious or meaningless.

But you are missing the point I made in my last two posts.

The evidence for, say, Hinduism existing is not exactly difficult to find.

But Messianic Judaism is ... well, many people would even dispute it ever really existed, something you are UNABLE to do with say Hinduism or Christianity.

Go back 100 years in time. You could easily know Hinduism existed.

But if it wasn't for recently sprung-up websites, nobody would know anything about MJ and its supposed history.

It's so well hidden it is like it might as well not exist, and some of the things presented as historical may well turn out to not be historical.

" I would say that there is actually a lot of evidence of their existence."

And you may be right, but that's the EXACT way a Mormon would phrase it if talking about Nephites and Lamanites and Jaredites.

With Islam or Christianity or whatever, you don't need to "provide evidence that they existed". Their historicity and existence is already self-evident.

 

[Hoshiyya]

It seems to be a matter of "how to interpret" history to fit a certain narrative, rather than an objective treatment of the multifaceted reality of things.

Of course MJ had a thousand-year illustrious history in Iraq, or in some other country you've never visited !

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but we are so willing to believe, we "want to believe", so how can we be objective ?

 

[visionary]

This argument you present is not the purpose of this thread. You have stated what you believe. I am of the faith that God has always His people who are exactly what He is looking for even if they are few and far between.

 

[ContraMundum]

That's my point. For whatever reason, they are not there.

Either there was nothing to squash, or it got squashed. The point is that at the end of the day, you cannot stumble over it accidentally like you do with certain other major cultures. It's like Nephites. You only find proof of Nephites if you specifically LOOK for it...

We CANNOT be Mormons. The Mormons have a lot of proof for Nephites ... in their mind. "The proof is all there, but it got squashed!"

Absolutely brilliant. Best post from you ever, bro.

The "The Hidden Pilgrim Church" is the line of argument used by cults and sects right throughout the modern era. In order to make it fly, centuries of writings need to be ignored (and vilified- including their authors no matter how saintly) and instead there must an argument from silence with little or no evidence to support it. That's why a lot of people call if the "Myth of the Pilgrim Church".

I think it's good to respect what's actually found, but to argue from silence (eg- "our truth was lost") begs further investigation. Usually, as you say, a lot of the "threads of truth" are spurious or meaningless or I would add open to debate and interpretation.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I just think it is important to take into perspective that more people have heard of Scientology or Candomble or Raelism, or identify as Jedi, than have heard of or identify with the religion of Yeshua (MJ).

 

[Hoshiyya]

Absolutely brilliant. Best post from you ever, bro.

The "The Hidden Pilgrim Church" is the line of argument used by cults and sects right throughout the modern era. In order to make it fly, centuries of writings need to be ignored (and vilified- including their authors no matter how saintly) and instead there must an argument from silence with little or no evidence to support it. That's why a lot of people call if the "Myth of the Pilgrim Church".

I think it's good to respect what's actually found, but to argue from silence (eg- "our truth was lost") begs further investigation. Usually, as you say, a lot of the "threads of truth" are spurious or meaningless or I would add open to debate and interpretation.

Thank you for the feedback.
Maybe even a slow clock like me can tell time correctly once in a while ?

I think the popularity and the age of a religion/ideology are supremely important.

Sometimes I get mistakenly interpreted as "populist", but really, the renown of, or popular awareness of something is important. I personally would prefer to belong to one of the "5 world religions", and hence I'd like MJ to be more similar to Judaism, which is a well-known and recognized thing. Or in other words, I'd like MJ to be a well-known thing, and an ancient thing, something with a real and undeniable history, and not just something that basically popped up less than 100 years ago.

We are able to discredit modern religions like Scientology partially because of their youth. But like Mormons, we project our religion down through history and we don't always have meaningful evidence for this perspective.