Messianic History

[visionary]

Other Church fathers also attest to Polycarp's discipleship under John. Polycarp was Bishop of Smyrna. This is well known. If you have evidence to the contrary then post it.

Just like you would like me to prove that Peter was in Rome as the first Pope??

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Ephesus and Smyrna are VERY close to each other.

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/625/586/62558604_640.jpg

John and Polycarp WERE in the SAME area at the same time. Probably at least 10 years before John died.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Peter actually established the patriarchate of Antioch before he ever set foot in Rome :-0

 

[visionary]

Ephesus and Smyrna are VERY close to each other.

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/625/586/62558604_640.jpg

John and Polycarp WERE in the SAME area at the same time. Probably at least 10 years before John died.

Yet no mention of Polycarp in Ephesus, or John in Smyrna ...Question... why didn't John in his revelation letter, name Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, directly..? Why didn't John name a successor to the position of bishop of Ephesians when he left? John knew that his letter was going to reach the seven churches.. It wouldn't have been hard to say... Hey buddy.... Yeshua told me a message that is for your congregation there in Ephesus and then again to his other buddy Polycarp in Smyrna...after all they were leaders of the congregation.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

John likely knew ALL of the Bishops of the 7 Churches in Asia. So why didn't he name them all? According to tradition, Timothy was first Bishop of Ephesus. Smyrna is less than 50 miles north of Ephesus. John likely had been to all 7 churches in Asia numerous times. Your point makes no sense.


From Polycrates 130AD:
For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest, who shall rise again in the day of the coming of the Lord, when He cometh with glory from heaven and shall raise again all the saints. I speak of Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who is laid to rest at Hierapolis; and his two daughters, who arrived at old age unmarried; his other daughter also, who passed her life under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and reposes at Ephesus; John, moreover, who reclined on the Lord's bosom, and who became a priest wearing the mitre, and a witness and a teacher-he rests at Ephesus. Then there is Polycarp, both bishop and martyr at Smyrna; and Thraseas from Eumenia, both bishop and martyr, who rests at Smyrna. Why should I speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who rests at Laodicea? of the blessed Papirius, moreover? and of Melito the eunuch, who performed all his actions under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and lies at Sardis, awaiting the visitation from heaven, when he shall rise again from the dead?

 

[visionary]

Peter actually established the patriarchate of Antioch before he ever set foot in Rome :-0

no evidence he ever was in Rome. Paul's journey to the city is recorded in great detail (Acts 27 and 28). There is in fact no New Testament evidence, nor any historical proof of any kind, that Peter ever was in Rome. All rests on legend.

But if you insist.. then let's go with that thought.. There is, in the greeting at the end of his first epistle:
The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God's election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark(1 Pet. 5:13, Knox).

Is Babylon a code-word for Rome? Let us then consider the other New Testament citations:

Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion

or how about

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath

or how about

Rev 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations

it doesn't matter which verse you pick, it does not bode well for Babylon

Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice,Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great

so I ask you again, is this the type of place you can picture Peter being the Pope over

Rev 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come

Where is the evidence or the influence of Peter's authority over this congregation in Rome

Rev 18:21 So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence.

For if you claim that Peter is writing from Rome, which he called Babylon, then you would have to accept that it is the common terminology that John uses also in Revelation. Then ask yourself, why would Peter want to be the Pope of that? If you do not accept this, then why are you accepting any other story coming from Rome regarding the "Church Fathers"?

By the way, the story of John boiling in oil is suppose to come from Polycarp.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

no evidence he ever was in Rome. Paul’s journey to the city is recorded in great detail (Acts 27 and 28). There is in fact no New Testament evidence, nor any historical proof of any kind, that Peter ever was in Rome. All rests on legend.

But if you insist.. then let's go with that thought.. There is, in the greeting at the end of his first epistle: “The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13, Knox).

Is Babylon a code-word for Rome? Let us then consider the other New Testament citations:
or how about or how about it doesn't matter which verse you pick, it does not bode well for Babylon so I ask you again, is this the type of place you can picture Peter being the Pope over Where is the evidence or the influence of Peter's authority over this congregation in Rome For if you claim that Peter is writing from Rome, which he called Babylon, then you would have to accept that it is the common terminology that John uses also in Revelation. Then ask yourself, why would Peter want to be the Pope of that? If you do not accept this, then why are you accepting any other story coming from Rome regarding the "Church Fathers"?

By the way, the story of John boiling in oil is suppose to come from Polycarp.

I think you are confused. These are not western church Fathers, although they claim them too since the church was not separated yet, although doctrine was always different. All 7 churches were EASTERN churches. If Peter was or was not the first Bishop of the patriarch in Rome is of no consequence here.

 

[visionary]

I think you are confused. These are not western church Fathers, although they claim them too since the church was not separated yet, although doctrine was always different. All 7 churches were EASTERN churches. If Peter was or was not the first Bishop of the patriarch in Rome is of no consequence here.

You brought Peter into the conversation...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No I did not...YOU did:

Just like you would like me to prove that Peter was in Rome as the first Pope??

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Just like you would like me to prove that Peter was in Rome as the first Pope??

For some reason you brought Peter and Rome into this conversation...

 

[visionary]

For some reason you brought Peter and Rome into this conversation...

I stand corrected.

 

[visionary]

Rabbi Israel Zolli (1881-1956) was the former Chief Rabbi of Rome who helped save about 4,000 Roman Jews as the Nazis entered Rome in 1943. Posing as a structural engineer, he entered the Vatican and asked Pope Pius XII to protect Rome';s Jews. The pope acquiesced and agreed to make churches, monasteries, convents, and the Vatican itself sanctuaries for them. Prior to his coming to Rome, Zolli served for 35 years as the Chief Rabbi of Trieste.

Following the war, Rav Zolli made a public confession of faith in 1945 and was forced out of his position. When asked if he therefore believed that the Messiah had come, he said:

Yes, positively. I have believed it many years. And now I am so firmly convinced of the truth of it that I can face the whole world and defend my faith with the certainty and solidity of the mountains.

Jewish leaders called him a heretic, excommunicated him, proclaimed a fast for several days in atonement for his treason, and mourned him as one dead.

 

[visionary]

Rabbi Chil Slostowski

A descendant of an illustrious line of great rabbis, Rav Slostowski received s’micha at the age of 17 and become a great gadol serving congregations in Poland, including teaching in the great rabbinical seminary in Lodz. There he became an authority on matters of kashrut. Within a few years he received an invitation from the illustrious former Israeli Chief Rabbi, Rav Abraham Isaac Kook, to go to Israel where he was appointed as Secretary to the Chief Rabbinate of Jerusalem.

After Rav Kook’s death in 1935, he moved to Tel Aviv and taught Talmud in an illustrious yeshiva. Like Rav Lichtenstein, Slostowski had a miraculous encounter while reading the New Testament in Hebrew that convinced him that Yeshua really was the Jewish Messiah. Although he tried to keep his new-found conviction quiet, within two months he could do so no longer, and openly confessed his belief that Yeshua was the Messiah and resigned from his position in Tel Aviv. Soon afterward he was pelted with rocks and hospitalized. But he was undeterred in his faith. He continued to publicly proclaim that Yeshua is the Messiah despite constant persecution.

 

[visionary]

Rabbi Daniel Landsmann

Rabbi Daniel Landsmann (1836-1896) was a Jerusalem tailor and Talmudic scholar who came to faith in Yeshua in 1863. He was almost killed by his own people, angered that someone well educated in Jewish tradition should believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

His perspective on Yeshua began to change when he found upon the street a page in Hebrew torn from a book. He loved what he read, and when he later discovered that it was from the Sermon on the Mount, he began to think differently about Yeshua. When he began to reveal that he believed Yeshua is the Messiah, his wife left him, a fanatical group attempted to wrestle him to the ground and nail spikes into his hands, and another tried to bury him alive.

He finally moved to New York City and, with a wealth of Talmudic knowledge and a humble spirit, moved many other Jews to consider the Messiahship of Yeshua.

 

[visionary]

Rav Ephraim Ben Joseph Eliakim (Chacham Ephraim)

Chacham (a respected title used by Sefardic Jews for great rabbis) Ephraim’s father was a Rabbi in Tiberias, a leading man in the Arabic-speaking Jewish community. Chacham Ephraim himself became esteemed and honored by Jews and Arabs alike and received a leading place in the community, becoming one of the dayanim, overseers of justice, who are specially entrusted with the rights and interests of the individuals of the community. Coincident with these advances he married the daughter of the Chief Rabbi.

Rav Ephraim eventually became friends with Rev. Dr. William Ewing, of the Church of Scotland in Tiberias, who spoke fluent Hebrew. The two men were of almost equal age and soon developed friendly talks about the Talmud and the Bible, but every conversation would eventually lead to claims of Yeshua as the Messiah.

The older Jewish interpretations of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah were known as referring to the King Messiah, and it was not long before Chacham Ephraim recognized the picture of the Suffering Servant “by whose stripes we are healed.” The sufferings of his own people throughout the ages and their desperate outlook touched him deeply.

Guided by his friend he con[bless and do not curse]sidered: “The first temple was destroyed and the nation scattered on account of three great sins committed by Israel, but seventy years later the temple was rebuilt. Then came the second destruc[bless and do not curse]tion, and for over 1,800 years Israel has been without the Holy Temple. What was the cause of this second destruction and of the greater scattering? Idolatry was not the reason. There was no lack of zeal for either the Torah or for the sacrifices. Why has God forsaken us so long?”

Rav Ephraim wept and prayed and struggled with the problems, unwilling to give in. He even asked questions about these things of his fellow rabbis, but they could only give the time-worn, formal answers.

Still he struggled, con[bless and do not curse]vinced that some terrible sin had been the cause of the wrath of HaShem against his people. Then there dawned upon him the secret of it all— “sinat chinam – hatred without a cause” (Yoma 9b), and a still, small voice expostulated within him, “Cease to hate Me. Love Me and I will give you peace.”

The struggle was over. Chacham Ephraim found a peace that was unbroken until his dying day. What followed was a time of fierce persecution, where he lost everything, including his wife and family. Chacham Ephraim wandered to different cities and eventually settled in Jerusalem where he worked as a manual laborer, and in the evenings would meant with prominent individuals who would come secretly to talk with him. He also led studies in the Bible for other Jewish and Arab believers. He died in August of 1930 and was buried in Jerusalem.

 

[Yoseft]

I am enjoying reading this thread. Thank you Visionary.

There is much information to ponder.

Shalom
Yosef

New Member that loves all things from a Jewish view
that aligns with HIS Word.

 

[Yoseft]

A convert would not be messianic unless they continued to keep the Torah and observe the feasts of YHWH.

Looking up the three names led me to this page:

I do not want to derail or necro post to an older post.:o

Just sharing... if I may

"observe the feasts of YHWH"

In my area, there are many churches, that is a good thing.

But as I see signs outside some of them yesterday Friday 4 Oct, fall festivals signs that have a smiling large pig on them, that have counter halloween gatherings, that they call fall festival, my guts twist within me.

If the non-Messianic, non-feast observing churches that would find it a horror to do so, has a gathering / congregation of saved gospel believers, that observes valentines day, counter halloween time, easter, christmas
that can not be found in the Word, if they would search history accurately, why is it such a sin to them to honor the prepetual Feast days? It surley must be better than fall festival as an example.
I am in a city, none of these members are farmers.

Sorry back to your Excellent Messianic History thread.

I just needed to vent. Please bear with me.

Hope I still have few punches on my new guy card left.

 

[danny ski]

Rabbi Israel Zolli (1881-1956) was the former Chief Rabbi of Rome who helped save about 4,000 Roman Jews as the Nazis entered Rome in 1943. Posing as a structural engineer, he entered the Vatican and asked Pope Pius XII to protect Rome’s Jews. The pope acquiesced and agreed to make churches, monasteries, convents, and the Vatican itself sanctuaries for them. Prior to his coming to Rome, Zolli served for 35 years as the Chief Rabbi of Trieste.

Following the war, Rav Zolli made a public confession of faith in 1945 and was forced out of his position. When asked if he therefore believed that the Messiah had come, he said:

“Yes, positively. I have believed it many years. And now I am so firmly convinced of the truth of it that I can face the whole world and defend my faith with the certainty and solidity of the mountains.”

Jewish leaders called him a heretic, excommunicated him, proclaimed a fast for several days in atonement for his “treason,” and mourned him as one dead.

Ex Rabbi Zolli was not rejected by his fellow Jews because he converted to Roman Catholicism. He was not reinstated to his former position after the war because of his lack of leadership during the occupation. Without malice, just want to add, if you want to claim a Jew who converted to Catholicism as part of MJ history, you will never be taken seriously.

 

[visionary]

Ex Rabbi Zolli was not rejected by his fellow Jews because he converted to Roman Catholicism. He was not reinstated to his former position after the war because of his lack of leadership during the occupation. Without malice, just want to add, if you want to claim a Jew who converted to Catholicism as part of MJ history, you will never be taken seriously.

True..... I agree.

 

[Yoseft]

True..... I agree.

At my work I had to go see the Senior Manager that could have fired me
on the spot.

We had a new "temp" co-worker who shared that she was Jewish, and
had recently converted to Catholicism.

It is my job, as Senior Tech to mentor new possible techs.
I had to show her all over the building, and when we went into the server room, I just
felt so compled to share with her.

I shared that I was Messianic and about our congregation.
I shared that if she wanted to find the truth of the Messiah, the Catholic Church was not the best path to go.

She seemed to take it in ok, and that was that, after I gave her directions to our Congregation location.

She never came, and I never pursued it.

She was not the best at her new job, and was honestly not very good as a candidate for the position.

When she was not hired 6 weeks later, she made a complaint that I was the problem, and because
she did not come to my Congregation, that is why she was not hired.

I will never forget, that when I was called in the Senior Manager's office, I honestly did not know why
I was being called in.

But 1 minute before I arrived to knock on his door, the Glory and the beautiful precious anointing of
the Ruach Hakodesh fell on me. As I entered the office, and the senior manager explained why I was
in there, and wanted an answer, the Gospel spoken by Yeshua occured. Matthew 10:19
But when they bring you to trial, do not worry about what to say or how to say it; when the time
comes, you will be given what you should say.

Truthfully to this day, I do not remember what came out of my mouth for an answer. It was the
Ruach Hakodesh who spoke through me, and I was dismissed with a warning, and that was it.

Glory to Ha Shem!!!!!