Messianic History

[Hoshiyya]

I guess I do not see what you are getting at.

Do we believe every word that comes out of Rome?

Do we blindly believe their accusations against people ?

They routinely accused people of sorcery, sabbatarianism, islam, etc.
It is naive to think every person they accuse of such things is actually guilty of it.
Are we naive enough to believe the spurious slander put out by centralist Catholics in the dark ages to slander less centralist Catholics ?

 

[visionary]

Do we believe every word that comes out of Rome?

Do we blindly believe their accusations against people ?

They routinely accused people of sorcery, sabbatarianism, islam, etc.
It is naive to think every person they accuse of such things is actually guilty of it.

Yes, a little discernment and validation in other works does help. Usually there is a consistence in RCC procedures and usually for similar reasons. If they did it to one set of people for one reason, chances are they will repeat procedure on the next group they find doing the same thing.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yes, a little discernment and validation in other works does help. Usually there is a consistence in RCC procedures and usually for the similar reasons. If they did it to one set of people for one reason, chances are they will repeat procedure on the next group they find doing the same thing.

So, are you actually saying "Yes" to my question "do we blindly trust Rome" ?

I'm trying not to read your post that way, but it's unclear.

 

[visionary]

So, are you actually saying "Yes" to my question "do we blindly trust Rome" ?

I'm trying not to read your post that way, but it's unclear.

No, I am saying there is some consistency in RCC behavior through the ages that reveal their intentions and attitudes towards certain things. "Trust" is not a term I would associate with Rome. But the sad fact is that a lot of books were burned during the dark ages that could have been the historical documents that confirmed what I have been trying to find using RCC. Other historical religious documents are not as available, but if I find them I would refer to them first.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The only realistic and functional and mature way to actually - in reality - have a Torah-based government or authority or organization or community, is to have a Rabbinic government/authority/organization/community.

 

[annier]

The only realistic and functional and mature way to actually - in reality - have a Torah-based government or authority or organization or community, is to have a Rabbinic government/authority/organization/community.

Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?
Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system.

 

[visionary]

Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?
Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system.

This reminds me of the whisper game. In a circle of players one starts a sentence whispered in the ear of the one beside them, and each in turn pass the sentence on by whispering in the ear what they heard. So it is with Judaism today. Their understanding needs the originator to whisper it again in their ears.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?
Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system.

"Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?"

Yes, and Tradition reveals how that is - actually, plausibly - done.

"Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system"

A) Being able to identify a person as kohen would be the prerequisite for that. Let's deal with reality and what's realistic. The kohens we have today may be allowed to call themselves that, but couldn't actually prove their descent.

B) The kohanim were never at the head of the judicial system, the king (from the tribe of Judah) was. Moses told us to establish courts, but does not say only Kohanim may judge: indeed, most of the "Judges" (Shoftim) were not from Levi (there was one Judge from each tribe, f.ex Samson was from Dan.)
In addition to the Shoftim we obviously have "regular judges" which would be from any tribe, as far as we know.

Here is the hierarchy, as laid out in Jewish tradition:

1. king
2. high priest
3. prophet

And they all had different areas of authority in any case. Indeed, a father has more authority than the high priest does, when it comes the father's own child, hence "authority" can be relative.

 

[annier]

"Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?"

Yes, and Tradition reveals how that is - actually, plausibly - done.

"Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system"

A) Being able to identify a person as kohen would be the prerequisite for that. Let's deal with reality and what's realistic. The kohens we have today may be allowed to call themselves that, but couldn't actually prove their descent.

B) The kohanim were never at the head of the judicial system, the king (from the tribe of Judah) was. Moses told us to establish courts, but does not say only Kohanim may judge: indeed, most of the "Judges" (Shoftim) were not from Levi (there was one Judge from each tribe, f.ex Samson was from Dan.)
In addition to the Shoftim we obviously have "regular judges" which would be from any tribe, as far as we know.

Here is the hierarchy, as laid out in Jewish tradition:

1. king
2. high priest
3. prophet

And they all had different areas of authority in any case. Indeed, a father has more authority than the high priest does, when it comes the father's own child, hence "authority" can be relative.

The high priest being Chief Justice, does not exclude men from other tribes from being judges, why you assumed that I did is curious? Moses does call for lower courts to officiate, which include heads of all the tribes.
Technically, speaking of law given by God through Moses, a king is not spoken of for a chief justice. Moses did allow for a king, and gave instructions concerning that, but Moses did not set up a king for a governing official. A king was given upon request, but was not given until later, after Moses.
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
1Sa 12:1 And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.
1Sa 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.


I do not see much that is good spoken through Moses concerning a future king?

Moses set the high priest as Chief Justice.
De 17:18 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.7:

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

The Levites were present it seems even in the lower courts. Josephus confirms this.

 

[Hoshiyya]

The high priest being Chief Justice, does not exclude men from other tribes from being judges, why you assumed that I did is curious? Moses does call for lower courts to officiate, which include heads of all the tribes.
Technically, speaking of law given by God through Moses, a king is not spoken of for a chief justice. Moses did allow for a king, and gave instructions concerning that, but Moses did not set up a king for a governing official. A king was given upon request, but was not given until later, after Moses.
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
1Sa 12:1 And Samuel said unto all Israel, Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you.
1Sa 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.


I do not see much that is good spoken through Moses concerning a future king?

Moses set the high priest as Chief Justice.
De 17:18 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.7:

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

The Levites were present it seems even in the lower courts. Josephus confirms this.

I have no idea what case you are trying to make. I'm dealing with reality not theory.

The "king" is ultimately Yeshua (incl his forerunners and forefathers like David and Solomon), so clearly the monarchy is a G-d-ordained institution, just as the high priesthood and judgeship. The king necessarily is above the high priest (whose only or primary authority really is in the temple) and the judges (who - obviously - must submit to the anointed king.)

 

[annier]

I have no idea what case you are trying to make.

The point I am making is Moses said nothing about a king for a Judge.

I'm dealing with reality not theory.

Me too. It is far more realistic to know Kohen's today than a descendant of David is it not?

The "king" is ultimately Yeshua (incl his forerunners and forefathers like David and Solomon), so clearly the monarchy is a G-d-ordained institution, just as the high priesthood and judgeship.

One monarchy is commanded by Moses, the other is by covenant made with David.

The king necessarily is above the high priest (whose only or primary authority really is in the temple) and the judges (who - obviously - must submit to the anointed king.)

Where does Moses say this? And how do you determine a descendant of David? It is possible to identify kohen's though.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

This thread has definitely got my attention. I will ask questions later.

Moriah Ruth

 

[visionary]

In the making of The Lost Sephardic Tribes of Latin America, Rabbi Bookman travelled to Loja, Ecuador, at the request of a person he had helped to convert. He was told about residents of Loja, who believed that they were descendants of Sephardic Jews who fled Spain in 1492 during the Inquisition. Upon their arrival in South America, many of these immigrants had assimilated by converting to Christianity. Yet remarkably, in the privacy of their homes, they still practiced certain rituals that were clearly identified with Judaism. For example, they continued to observe the Sabbath and wash the dead before burial. Five centuries later these descendants still own Judaic objects that had been passed down from generation to generation.

Today there are over a half-million people, just in El Oro and Loja who have names of Jewish origin explained Rabbi Bookman. Many of these people speak Ladino, a language that is a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew. Rabbi Bookman, who is interviewed in the film, is a special guest at the screening along with filmmaker Yaron Avitov.

Greater Miami Jewish Federation Community Post: It's Happening In Miami

 

[danny ski]

"Shouldn't a torah based government actually be based on Torah?"

Yes, and Tradition reveals how that is - actually, plausibly - done.

"Which would put the kohens at the head of the judicial system"

A) Being able to identify a person as kohen would be the prerequisite for that. Let's deal with reality and what's realistic. The kohens we have today may be allowed to call themselves that, but couldn't actually prove their descent.

B) The kohanim were never at the head of the judicial system, the king (from the tribe of Judah) was. Moses told us to establish courts, but does not say only Kohanim may judge: indeed, most of the "Judges" (Shoftim) were not from Levi (there was one Judge from each tribe, f.ex Samson was from Dan.)
In addition to the Shoftim we obviously have "regular judges" which would be from any tribe, as far as we know.

Here is the hierarchy, as laid out in Jewish tradition:

1. king
2. high priest
3. prophet

And they all had different areas of authority in any case. Indeed, a father has more authority than the high priest does, when it comes the father's own child, hence "authority" can be relative.

I don't want a king. Torah based society? To what end and how? Choice is the base of my belief. I don't want others imposing their interpretation on my beliefs nor do I want to impose mine on others. There are no kings in the Torah, Moses does not strike me as an autocrat and the latter kings were more a miss than a hit.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I don't want a king. There are no kings in the Torah, Moses does not strike me as an autocrat and the latter kings were more a miss than a hit.

I agree 100%!

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

About this king issue.

God didn't want Israel to have a king. More so an earthly king. When the Israelites desired to have an earthly king God tried to change their minds. However they insisted on a king. Which they did receive. King Saul. He started out being obedient to God however he got off the path. Yet the people still desired a king.

So basically God didn't and still does not want us to have a king, politically speaking. But a Heavenly King, which is Yeshua.

This is my thinking.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Visionary,

I had copied, pasted and printed out the history in 1500's with regards to no Jews or people practicing Judaism under the Roman Catholic church. And if one were to be found doing so they would be excommunicated from the RCC. And if they continued to do so than there would be no help for them. Not even for the poor people.

I read it last night and I was interested. To even think that the RCC had banned all Jewish thought, practices and beliefs. However did they not do this way before that also?

So after reading the article it goes to show how much of the false teachings have sneaked into the body of Yeshua. And still accept to be truth and if one were to believe otherwise than one would be excommunicated from the church.

Any thoughts on this?

Moriah Ruth

 

[Dave-W]

Moriah Ruth: have you heard of the Helsinki Consultation? It is an ongoing discussion group of Messianic Jews (led byRabbi Mark Kinzer) and leaders in the RCC, EOC and a couple of other main line denoms.

helsinkiconsultation - Netherlands

The fifth Helsinki Consultation on Jewish Continuity in the Body of Messiah met June 21-25, 2014, hosted by the Centre for Israel Studies at the Christelijke Hogeschool, Ede, Holland. Jewish scholars from Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, belonging to Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and Messianic traditions, met to deepen their fellowship in faith and reflect on their calling and role as Jewish believers in Jesus within Israel and the Church.

Building on discussions from previous meetings, participants presented papers (available below) focusing on the role of Jewish and Christian tradition in the living out of the Torah in the light of faith in Yeshua (Jesus). As Jewish believers in Yeshua we are challenged to define our relationship to the two traditions we have inherited, which are often seen as mutually exclusive. We addressed different aspects of this complex and multi-faceted subject, and have produced a joint statement (see below).

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Hi Dave,

No I have not heard of the Helsinki Consultation. However I do thank you for the info. I will check it out further when I have time. Blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Hoshiyya]

to the people saying "monarchy is not in Torah" - - -

1) ... have you read the Torah ?

2) Do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king ?