Messianic History

[ContraMundum]

Thank the Lord for those who are Hebrew Catholics, though one point I think worth mentioning is that its not just the RC church which many Hebrew Catholics find their home. For one can also consider those who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine Catholics as well--and with those specific camps, there are some significant differences that many may not be aware of in all cases....as many Eastern Catholic rites are more similar to what occurs within Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy (i.e. Coptic Orthodox, Ethopian Orthodox..with the Ethopian Orthodox church having the most Judaic spirit to it since most of the Ethopians within it retained their Jewish culture to a significant degree). And sadly, as other scholars have noted, many Roman Catholics have never even heard of things such as Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Christianity for that matter.

Nonetheless, they're very beautiful to see in action. This is something I was glad to learn of from the Messianic Jewish Rabbi I work under, as he himself was a student within Eastern Christianity and experienced many times a myraid of expressions within Eastern Christian circles. It is because of this that many aspects of our fellowship (as seen here) incorporate aspects of Eastern Christianity frequently when it comes to teaching and insights. There was a discussion on the issue elsewhere that had many great insights--entitled Can a Hebrew Catholic be comfortable in a Melkite Church? . As another noted there, the Syriac and the Chaldean/Assyrian Churches are likely the most "Semitic" traditions for a number of reasons, with their Liturgies handed down from the time when they really were Hebrew Catholics...specifically, Temple Jewish Catholics. And for other places that've given some EXCELLENT discussion on the issue:

• Byzantine Jewess
• Byzantine 101: Before Visiting an Eastern Catholic Church
• Standing Up To The Great Schism, The Great Divide, and the Great -Divorce--The Groom's Family...

Really good work, Easy! Very good. Well done.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Really good work, Easy! Very good. Well done.

Do you have any connections and close friendships with those who are Eastern Catholics? For what I've noticed, whenever the subject does come up/has been broached by yourself, is that you seem to focus more so on those who are Roman Catholic---and that has always been of interest to me. I was not certain as to whether or not it was due to RC circles being your area of focus/expertise or due to personal issues such as not really favoring Eastern Catholicism as much as the RC and Anglicanism alongside other liturgical circles.

And to be clear, as it concerns the examples of where it seems the focus was upon Roman Catholicism, the places I had in mind were ones such as #1 #6 #26 #30 #45 #130 and others.

 

[ContraMundum]

Do you have any connections and close friendships with those who are Eastern Catholics? For what I've noticed, whenever the subject does come up/has been broached by yourself, is that you seem to focus more so on those who are Roman Catholic---and that has always been of interest to me. I was not certain as to whether or not it was due to RC circles being your area of focus/expertise or due to personal issues such as not really favoring Eastern Catholicism as much as the RC and Anglicanism alongside other liturgical circles.

I don't know many Eastern Catholic parishes in my area, but I have had a couple of meetings with a Melkite Priest who was building a new congregation not far from us. The good thing is that they are not anti-semitic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't know many Eastern Catholic parishes in my area, but I have had a couple of meetings with a Melkite Priest who was building a new congregation not far from us. The good thing is that they are not anti-semitic.

What is the Melkite Priest like who you were working with? Additionally, although you don't know many in your area, have you ever done in-depth review on them as much as RCs or Anglicanism? When did you first come to hear of them?

Glad to know, by the way, that the ones you speak of are not anti-semitic...although its sadly the case that some are.

The entire issue of saying that Eastern Catholics (or, for that matter, Eastern Orthodox) were in any way Anti-Semitic has never really made full sense to me...for although there've been cases of it in certain circles (As the rabbi of my fellowship noted when it came to his experiences), the same thing has occurred even within RC circles and many other aspects of Christendom. And when it comes to the claim of "anti-semitism", it always seems that people may be quick to assume that disagreeing with certain aspects of Jewish culture or Judaic practices (including political actions done in the name of Jewish culture, in regards to the Israeli state) is automatically being against God's people. But one can disagrees with the policies/actions of one area and yet still be in support of a people whom the Lord said he loved ( as discussed more in-depth here in #44 ).

With some of the Eastern Catholic circles I've seen, as many may involve those of Arabic descent, it'd be natural for them to discuss the plight of their people/be sympathetic toward what their own people go through..just as it'd be with those circles which may be more Jewish in orgin and naturally get more so focused on their own people. But thankfully, many Eastern Catholic circles are very much in support of both those who are Jewish and Arabic/other Eastern descent since both Jews and Arabs are blood brothers---and for those who wish to see peace between both groups, its a blessing. Examples coming to mind are those such as Elias Chacour ( seen in #9 and here in regards to Arabs/Israel ), the Melkite Arch Bishop of Galilee who wrote the book entitled Blood Brothers and can be found at "Voices for Palestine"......and there are many others, such as Joseph Raya, who did work with Dr. Martin Luther King (as both a co-laborer and dear friend) and other rabbis working for desegration/fair treatment toward both Jews and Blacks...in addition to the fact that he worked very deeply/closely with Elias Chacour in the work for peace in the Middle East----being a very controversial/radical figure in the church....helping to organize marches/often suffering alongside other blacks... as he was twice beaten badly by the Ku Klux Klan. For a Video clip of Archbishop Raya leading a peaceful protest, 1972-08-14.

In regards to Eastern Christianity, as it concerns personal experience, I was blessed to be able to witness ministry occurring amongst those in Eastern circles who were very open toward Jewish culture. Some of this was shared more in-depth when the rabbi of my fellowship took some of the memebers to go visit an Eastern church he went to years ago/developed relationships with---as seen here in the thread entitled Enjoying Bishop Angaelos & Going to my First Coptic Church Experience ( #13 / #37 ). Truly an amazing/wonderful experience I'll never forget, especially seeing the many ways that Jews and Arabs/Egyptians were able to get along wonderfully together in Messiah

 

[Gxg (G²)]

God is good....

 

[GuardianShua]

Isaiah 2:6
You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Isaiah 2:6
You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.

Curious as to what this was in reference to...and I pray it's not with the purpose of saying all in the East are either superstitious or for divination, as not were in that camp and the scriptures NEVER say that all things Eastern (including people ) were not of Him. With Isaiah 2:6-9, the context is one in which the people were following the practices of the Assyrian Empire (II Kings 16:7). "Divination like the Philistines" meant claiming to know and control the future by the power of demons or by interpreting omens. These practices were forbidden by God (see Leviticus 19:26, Deuteronomy 18:10-14). The Philistines worshipped Dagon, Ashtoreth, and Baal-Zebub. During the more sinful periods of their history, the people of Israel worshiped these pagan gods alng with Yahweh, and even gave them Hebrew names.

That being said, again, it was never the case that the Lord EVER condemned all things from the East in all times, cultures and contexts. Moreover, as it stands, there were Jewish people within that side of the world just as they were in the West, North and South. One excellent article you could look up is entitled Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism, in regards to seeing some of the history behind the Jewish connections with Eastern culture.

But for scriptural examples, the Biblical example of Job comes immediately to mind:

Job 1:3/Job 1

Prologue

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

​

There are some who note how Job himself, when considering Biblical literature, was most likely an Arab...and one excellent book on the issue can be found under the name of "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel" (as seen here and here). Of course, some others believe that Job was an Oriental/East Asian.....and for more, one can go online/look up the article entitled The Image of the Oriental: Western and Byzantine Perceptions and the other here at Cyclopaedia of biblical, theological, and ecclesiastical literature - Google Books Result (concerning how Job's tomb is still shown to many Oriental tourists). Also, in the event you (or others) may be interested, there are some excellent articles on the subject of Asian Jews...specifically, those who are Chinese Jews. For more info, one can go online and investigate under the following:

• "Chinese Jews" ( )

• "China's Jews | Bible Discovered" ( )

• "Are There Really Jews in China?: An Update" ( )

• "Chinese of Arab and Persian descent--ColorQ's Color Club" ( )

• "ORIENTAL ORIGINS IN THE BIBLE: A Bible study guide which reveals the origins of the Oriental people according to the Bible." ()

Indeed, its the case that people will so often associate Jewish identity with white European Jews that the rest of the Jewish world, and the very origin of the Jewish people, are forgotten. For the ancient Hebrews came out of North AFRICA (Egypt) into West Asia (Israel). The vast majority of the world's Jewish population lived in North Africa and West Asia during the Middle Ages....and the major centers of Jewish learning were once in Africa and Asia. 3rd Century BCE Alexandria (in Egypt), with its high Jewish population, was "the greatest city in the Jewish world". Between the 3rd and 5th centuries CE, the Jewish academies of Babylon (in present day Iraq) established the system of Biblical commentary that came to used by the entire Jewish world, with the Babylonian Talmud remaining an integral part of Jewish scholarship even in modern times.

And yet the achievements and expanse of African and Asian Jewry are largely invisible to the rest of the world, even to fellow Asians and Africans


For more information, on the issue of Jews of differing cultures/ethnicities, there's actually a wonderful ministry seeking to deal with such...as one can go online/look up a ministry by the name of Be’chol Lashon .meaning "In Every Tongue"--which is a research and community- building initiative created by the Institute for Jewish & Community Research to support a Jewish people that is more racially, ethnically, and culturally inclusive, both in the United States and around the world. And it goes into exceptional detail concerning the many struggles for those who were of MIXED ancestry (i.e. Gentile/Jewish) and yet, due to stereotypes, they were considered not really "Jewish".



On others from the East:

Isaiah 41/Isaiah 41:1-3 /Isaiah 41

The Helper of Israel

1 “Be silent before me, you islands!
Let the nations renew their strength!
Let them come forward and speak;
let us meet together at the place of judgment.

2 “Who has stirred up one from the east,
calling him in righteousness to his service[a]?
He hands nations over to him
and subdues kings before him.
He turns them to dust with his sword,
to windblown chaff with his bow.
3 He pursues them and moves on unscathed,
by a path his feet have not traveled before.
4 Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—with the first of them
and with the last—I am he.”
5 The islands have seen it and fear;
the ends of the earth tremble.
They approach and come forward;
6 they help each other
and say to their companions, “Be strong!”
7 The metalworker encourages the goldsmith,
and the one who smooths with the hammer
spurs on the one who strikes the anvil.
One says of the welding, “It is good.”
The other nails down the idol so it will not topple. 8 “But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, ‘You are my servant’;
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:10-12 / Matthew 8

Luke 13:29
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:28-30 / Luke 13
​

Plenty of beautiful things about the East

 

[ContraMundum]

What is the Melkite Priest like who you were working with? Additionally, although you don't know many in your area, have you ever done in-depth review on them as much as RCs or Anglicanism? When did you first come to hear of them?

The priest was a pretty nice guy, Lebanese and he had a very Middle-Eastern way of talking....if you offered to pay for the coffee, he was all "nooooooononono-no! I pay for the coffee my honored friend" and so forth. Great sense of humor. I am going to give him a call now that you have brought him to my remembrance.

I have never really studied the Melkites or any of the other Eastern Catholics in any depth. I consider them good people though. They work very hard for their communities and have massive parishes when they do get going.

Glad to know, by the way, that the ones you speak of are not anti-semitic...although its sadly the case that some are.

Yep. Unfortunately people bring their prejudices to church and I have met some very anti-semitic folks from the other side of the Danube.

The entire issue of saying that Eastern Catholics (or, for that matter, Eastern Orthodox) were in any way Anti-Semitic has never really made full sense to me...for although there've been cases of it in certain circles (As the rabbi of my fellowship noted when it came to his experiences), the same thing has occurred even within RC circles and many other aspects of Christendom. And when it comes to the claim of "anti-semitism", it always seems that people may be quick to assume that disagreeing with certain aspects of Jewish culture or Judaic practices (including political actions done in the name of Jewish culture, in regards to the Israeli state) is automatically being against God's people. But one can disagrees with the policies/actions of one area and yet still be in support of a people whom the Lord said he loved ( as discussed more in-depth here in #44 ).

Good point, but to be honest, sometimes we are to blame. When we over-react to things and cry "persecution" or "anti-semite" we do ourselves no good for our reputation. People tend to like equality, and think that sometimes they perceive that we ask for more favoritism. This is one reason why I sometimes cringe when it comes to the ADL. I often think we need to be wary or over-reaction but act strongly when it is truly necessary.

With some of the Eastern Catholic circles I've seen, as many may involve those of Arabic descent, it'd be natural for them to discuss the plight of their people/be sympathetic toward what their own people go through..just as it'd be with those circles which may be more Jewish in orgin and naturally get more so focused on their own people.

Right. It's to be expected. This is why the Muslims use Arab nationalism to recruit converts from among the Christians. They know that there is an inward urge to find one's identity in one's nationality or ethnicity, rather than in Christ as the NT teaches.

But thankfully, many Eastern Catholic circles are very much in support of both those who are Jewish and Arabic/other Eastern descent since both Jews and Arabs are blood brothers---and for those who wish to see peace between both groups, its a blessing. Examples coming to mind are those such as Elias Chacour ( seen in #9 and here in regards to Arabs/Israel ), the Melkite Arch Bishop of Galilee who wrote the book entitled Blood Brothers and can be found at "Voices for Palestine"......and there are many others, such as Joseph Raya, who did work with Dr. Martin Luther King (as both a co-laborer and dear friend) and other rabbis working for desegration/fair treatment toward both Jews and Blacks...in addition to the fact that he worked very deeply/closely with Elias Chacour in the work for peace in the Middle East----being a very controversial/radical figure in the church....helping to organize marches/often suffering alongside other blacks... as he was twice beaten badly by the Ku Klux Klan. For a Video clip of Archbishop Raya leading a peaceful protest, 1972-08-14.

In regards to Eastern Christianity, as it concerns personal experience, I was blessed to be able to witness ministry occurring amongst those in Eastern circles who were very open toward Jewish culture. Some of this was shared more in-depth when the rabbi of my fellowship took some of the memebers to go visit an Eastern church he went to years ago/developed relationships with---as seen here in the thread entitled Enjoying Bishop Angaelos & Going to my First Coptic Church Experience ( #13 / #37 ). Truly an amazing/wonderful experience I'll never forget, especially seeing the many ways that Jews and Arabs/Egyptians were able to get along wonderfully together in Messiah

Great post and interesting info brother. Thanks for this!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The priest was a pretty nice guy, Lebanese and he had a very Middle-Eastern way of talking....if you offered to pay for the coffee, he was all "nooooooononono-no! I pay for the coffee my honored friend" and so forth. Great sense of humor. I am going to give him a call now that you have brought him to my remembrance.

Good to know what he's like. The concept of hospitality is truly one of the most amazing aspects of Middle-Eastern culture---with much of it coming from the mindset of being honorable and showing hospitality is one of the main ones one can honor someone, as opposed to bringing shame upon themselves. Let me know how the call/interaction goes once you get in contact with him

I have never really studied the Melkites or any of the other Eastern Catholics in any depth. I consider them good people though. They work very hard for their communities and have massive parishes when they do get going.

The ways that they are well established and multiply quickly always astounds me.

Yep. Unfortunately people bring their prejudices to church and I have met some very anti-semitic folks from the other side of the Danube.

Indeed. Unfortunately, as it turns out, there are many who have just as much anti-semitic tones from within the Jewish camp...though more so in the sense of Philio-Semitism (as discussed here and here and here) when it comes to virtual deification of all things Jewish, to the point where humanity/the ability to make mistakes is not even considered--and by default, any or all actions are justified while all cultures disagreeing with them are villified in the worse light. The issue of what often occurs between Jews and Arabs comes to mind immediately....and on that issue, things can get sticky and one can see its not always so simple. In exampke, when it comes to Palestinian Arabs, what's interesting to consider is how many Palestinian Arabs are mixed with Jewish blood. Some of the battles seem to be very sticky in light of how many battles are raging on when it comes to discussing Palestinians and Jews---and yet, for many saying "Well, the land is for JEWS ONLY!!!" or "God loves Jews, He hates Arabs!!!!!", what amazes me is that SO FEW seem willing to deal with the realities of how many Palestinians were of Jewish descent....and, for that matter, how many of Arab-Jewish descent have ALWAYS been in existence. Many of them had backgrounds similar to Samaritans, where there was a mixture of blood/culture----with many living in the land and having a Jewish connection while also tied to Non-Jewish culture. For those Jews who lived with Palestinians and had peace with them, it can be awkward for them since they don't see all Palestinians as in error. However, they may not take as much heat as those who are considered to be "half-breeds" .... mistreated and still are villified Jewish people as well as Arabs.




For more:

Arab Jews - Young, Jewish, and Left Excerpt ​

Jews in Iran - Australian TV - 1/2 ​

Jews in Iran - Australian TV - 2/​

The Case of Palestinian Jews ​

As teacher/scholar Tony Malouf (of Lebonese descent) said in his book entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel", one doesn't have to "hate/curse an Arab in order to love a Jew"--and it often seems that in the process of trying to avoid anything anti-semitic, people often end up adopting an Anti-Arab stance in the process that's just as deadly...for just because something is Pro-Semitic doesn't mean its truly Pro-Yeshua (who condemned many attitudes tolerated by his own people and praised things in groups outside of His people. Outside of the fact that Brother Tony is an amazing individual and has had his work referenced in many places that do work with reconcilliation activities, Tony's book was rather insightful when it came to addresing the aformentioned issues---and in light of how a Messianic Jew recommended his work, I take that seriously For more on Tony's work and the varying perspectives of others who may be similar in thought, one can go here

And as it concerns both Arabs and Jews existing within Eastern Christianity, for more examples, one can go here/investigate the following:

• ← Peoplehood I
• Peoplehood II
• A Jewish-Arab Mission? | The Groom's Family
• Another Israeli Orthodox Church | The Groom's Family

Good point, but to be honest, sometimes we are to blame. When we over-react to things and cry "persecution" or "anti-semite" we do ourselves no good for our reputation. People tend to like equality, and think that sometimes they perceive that we ask for more favoritism. This is one reason why I sometimes cringe when it comes to the ADL. I often think we need to be wary or over-reaction but act strongly when it is truly necessary.

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) people are definately an interesting bunch...and likewise, some of the things they do (though admirable) are often tainted by some of the ways they seem to go to extremes on other things.....for it is indeed over-correction--and as it concerns analogies, over-corrections in driving is something that can cause a person to wreck their car just as much as speeding or slamming the breaks at the wrong time.

Ecclesiastes 10:1
As dead flies give perfume a bad smell, so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor.

​

Right. It's to be expected. This is why the Muslims use Arab nationalism to recruit converts from among the Christians.

In regards to Arab Nationalism and Muslims, the same also goes for those who are within Judaism and use Jewish nationalism to get recruits from amongst Jewish Christians/Christians in general.....even though there are both Jews and Arabs who look at both and say "No one side is truly on the Lord's side, so why would I approve of either fully as if one side has it all right??!"

They know that there is an inward urge to find one's identity in one's nationality or ethnicity, rather than in Christ as the NT teaches.

Nationalism should be found secondary to identity to Christ...in which there is neither Jew nor Greek. Doesn't mean that one's ethnic heritage isn't important and shouldn't be respected (As that was still the case in Acts 6 and other places where it was to be considered, especially Revelations 5:9 and Rev 7:9 with God taking men from EVERY TRIBE/TONGUE..)...but it does mean that it is always considered of less importance than one's status as a believer

That said, it seems that both Jews and Non-Jews are guilty of forgetting this and it can cause trouble where there needs to be none.

Great post and interesting info brother. Thanks for this

Although I'm not certain as to which specific part it was that you were speaking in reference to that you felt was interesting, I'm glad to know it blessed ya

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The priest was a pretty nice guy, Lebanese and he had a very Middle-Eastern way of talking....if you offered to pay for the coffee, he was all "nooooooononono-no! I pay for the coffee my honored friend" and so forth. Great sense of humor. I am going to give him a call now that you have brought him to my remembrance.

Lebanon has an amazing history, especially in regards to those who are Jewish..as it concerns the culture of the Lebanese Jews. There was an excellent read on the issue that I wish many would investigate, entitled The Jews of Lebanon: between coexistence and conflict....--as their history is truly a sad one to consider in light of the reasons why many left their homes...and I pray more would be willing to examine it

Jews of Lebanon
the jews of lebanon יהודי לבנון
Lebanon's silent community

​

Would be interesting if the Middle-Eastern priest and you were able to dialouge on the issue sometime and see what his perspective may be...​

 

[GuardianShua]

Isaiah 2:6
You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.

In the news today.
Buddhist monks, Muslim imams, Orthodox patriarchs and Yoruba leaders have flocked with Pope Benedict XVI to the Umbrian hilltown of Assisi to make an interfaith call for peace and insist that religion must never be used as a pretext for war.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the news today.
Buddhist monks, Muslim imams, Orthodox patriarchs and Yoruba leaders have flocked with Pope Benedict XVI to the Umbrian hilltown of Assisi to make an interfaith call for peace and insist that religion must never be used as a pretext for war.

For the full story on that, one can go here.


For another that goes into more depth/detail on the matter:

Traditional Catholics condemned the meeting — just as they did in 1986 — saying it was blasphemy for the pope to invite leaders of “false” religions to pray to their Gods for peace. The Society of St. Pius X, a breakaway traditionalist group that Benedict has been working to bring back into Rome’s fold, said it would be celebrating 1,000 Masses to atone for the damage done by the event and urged the pope to use it to urge others to convert to Catholicism.


The pope did no such thing.


But Benedict too objected to the 1986 event and didn’t go, disapproving of members of different faiths praying in the presence of one another. His 25th anniversary edition stripped away all communal public prayer in an attempt to remove any whiff of syncretism, or the combining of different beliefs and practices.




In his remarks, the German-born Benedict noted that in the 25 years since the landmark peace day, the Berlin Wall had crumbled without bloodshed and the world was without any great new wars. But he said nations are still full of discord and that religion is now frequently being used to justify violence.


“We know that terrorism is often religiously motivated and that the specifically religious character of the attacks is proposed as a justification for the reckless cruelty that considers itself entitled to discard the rules of morality for the sake of the intended ‘good,’” he said.


But the pope said it was wrong to demand that faith disappear from daily life to somehow rid the world of a religious pretext for violence. He argued that the absence of God from people’s daily lives was even more dangerous, since it deprived men and women of any moral criteria to judge their actions.

“The horrors of the concentration camps reveal with utter clarity the consequences of God’s absence,” said Benedict, who as a young German was forced to join the Hitler Youth.


A leading Islamic scholar, A. Hasyim Muzadi, also lamented that a misunderstanding of religion was often to blame for the onset of violence, when followers only have a “partial understanding” of their faith.

“A mistake in understanding religious comprehension no doubt has caused a misapplication of the religion itself,” he said.



Benedict’s relations with Muslims got off to a rocky start when in 2006 he delivered a now-infamous speech in which he quoted a Medieval text that characterized some of Muhammad’s teachings as “evil and inhuman,” particularly “his command to spread by the sword the faith.”



Amid post-Sept. 11 tensions, Benedict later said he regretted that the comments offended Muslims and he has sought ever since to mend ties with moderate Islam.

The Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, the head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and one of the first speakers at the peace meeting, said the delegates weren’t gathered there to come to a “minimum common ground of belief.”



Rather, he said, the meeting would show the world that through their distinctiveness, different faiths provide the wisdom to draw upon “in the struggle against the foolishness of a world still obsessed with fear and suspicion, still in love with the idea of a security based on active hostility, and still capable of tolerating or ignoring massive loss of life among the poorest through war and disease.”






​

The article noted Pope Benedict expressing great sorrow for all of the violence done in the name of Christianity (as many Christians have also echoed when it comes to the teachings of Yeshua). Moreover, as the article noted, never was it the case that Benedict said at any point that all religions are equal. What he made clear was that abuse of the Christian faith leading to violence was never what the Lord had in mind----and being a Christian doesn't mean one looks for whatever reason they can to fight against others, such as many do when saying that they cannot work with unbelievers on ANY points, be it in addressing homelessness or ending human trafficking, saving childen from pornagraphy or helping with advances in techonology and many other things. The scenario in Luke 10:25-39 wasn't based on the beaten up man agreeing with the views of the Samaritan as a basis of looking out for his well-being. Rather, there was an issue which required help/aid and common concern...and thus, things got done. All men are made in the Image of God and thus, all need to be respected/work on many things.

There's nothing wrong with Interfaith diaolouge since its a great opportunity for representing Christ/evangelism--and for more, one can go here. If you've ever heard of scholar/professor Philip Jenkins, who's a wonderful man of God, he noted much in his book "The Lost History of Christianity" as it concerns the ways believers operated in Eastern contexts and how they made a significant difference in spreading the Gospel. For more, one can go either here to #62 or here to Armarium Magnum: The Lost History of Christianity by Philip Jenkins


On Pope Benedict, minus the fact that the same occurrences have happened with people of the West, South and North in differing times and with differing groups (including CHRISTIANS), Are you saying that believers should be for war physically/attack others? For there are plenty of believers who believe in interfaith dialouge and see nothing at odds Biblically with wanting to ensure that ALL groups have peace. Its why Christians throughout the ages have worked with those who may not be saved to find ways that all can benefit. Its why people vote on laws on a host of issues in which their neighbor can be benefited...and its why many have noted that one cannot be a believer and be quick to wage war physically on others.

Luke 6:27-36/Matthew 5:44-46 comes immediately to mind, in regards to sons of God being those who do good to those who may wrong them..as God rains on both the JUST and the UNJUST. And King Solomon's example stands out, seeing how His wisdom caused others not of Israel to listen (1 Kings 4:29-34 ) and he worked with them in commerce/trade and dialouge, including the Queen of Sheba ( II Chronicles 9, I Kings 10 ). For others:

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.



Romans 12:17-19 /


17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.



Titus 3

Saved in Order to Do Good

1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.


1 Peter 2:17
Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.



Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning and Encouragement ] Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

1 Peter 2:12
Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

1 Kings 5:12
When Hiram king of Tyre heard that Solomon had been anointed king to succeed his father David, he sent his envoys to Solomon, because he had always been on friendly terms with David. 2 Solomon sent back this message to Hiram:

3 “You know that because of the wars waged against my father David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God until the LORD put his enemies under his feet. 4 But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side, and there is no adversary or disaster. 5 I intend, therefore, to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God, as the LORD told my father David, when he said, ‘Your son whom I will put on the throne in your place will build the temple for my Name.’
​

6 “So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”

7 When Hiram heard Solomon’s message, he was greatly pleased and said, “Praise be to the LORD today, for he has given David a wise son to rule over this great nation.”

8 So Hiram sent word to Solomon:

“I have received the message you sent me and will do all you want in providing the cedar and juniper logs. 9 My men will haul them down from Lebanon to the Mediterranean Sea, and I will float them as rafts by sea to the place you specify. There I will separate them and you can take them away. And you are to grant my wish by providing food for my royal household.”
​

10 In this way Hiram kept Solomon supplied with all the cedar and juniper logs he wanted, 11 and Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand cors[b] of wheat as food for his household, in addition to twenty thousand baths[c][d] of pressed olive oil. Solomon continued to do this for Hiram year after year.

The LORD gave Solomon wisdom, just as he had promised him. There were peaceful relations between Hiram and Solomon, and the two of them made a treaty.
1 Kings 5:11-13
​

Even the people of God in the OT had the same battles when it came to the ways in which the Lord told them to be truthful and yet seek the peace of others who were NOT saved.

Jeremiah 29

4 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” 8
​

And there are also the examples of people like Joseph--working to save others in Egypt/working with Egyptians (as discussed here in #4 )---or Esther in Persia, Nehemiah as a cup-bearer to a Pagan king whom he worked for, Daniel who worked with the King of Babylon and many others. If focusing on Isaiah 2:6 to make it out as if "clasping hands with pagans" mean God condemned people having relationships with them, the Word doesn't seem to show that fully. Isaiah 2:6 has nothing to do with others seeking to find ways in which they can live together. And as said before, it has nothing to do in any way with condemning all things (or people ) of the East.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We have Hebrew Christians on this area of the forum who consider themselves to be Messianics.. It is like this.. if you are leaving Judaism as a Jew and find Jesus, even a catholic version, to be your savior, can you call yourself a Messianic Jew. Messianic meaning you believer Jesus is your messiah, and Jew because of your bloodline. Or should I delete that Jew because he didn't keep his Judaism when he became a catholic?

There are an entire range of ways one can keep their Jewish heritage and yet be involved in camps throughout Christendom....and it is always insightful to see the stories of what occurred with other Jews who often noted so. In example, there is a Bulgarian parish that you might wanna check out/email in Boston, where both priests, Fr Patrick Tischel and Fr Michael Kon, are Jews.

here is the link to the parish in Boston:

• Holy Resurrection Orthodox Church - Allston, MA | Home

Additionally, there's an amazing conversion story I was blessed to come across...in regards to the son of an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, who became an Eastern Orthodox priest. His name is Fr James Bernstein, author fo the book "Surprised by Christ." I especially enjoyed learning of the book "Surprised by Christ", as there was an excellent podcast concerning interviewing the author and why he is as he is ( As seen here and here).
On some of the resources I was able to investigate that were really good for processing:

• Flow of Consciousness: Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Orthodox Judaism to Orthodox Christianity ...

The read is excellent since a book such as this would be an important step in showing 1) that the Orthodox Church retains and values the memory of its Jewish heritage, and 2) that those of Jewish heritage have a respected voice within the Church. Many Jews have found their place (in their views) in camps outside of the formation of the Modern-Day Messianic Jewish movement since they felt that they didn't need to be apart of it in order to be Messianic. In one book I was blessed to read, it discussed the ways in which Orthodoxoy reflected the era of Temple Worship and how early Jewish Christians would've been able to easily relate to the physical symbolism that often goes into Orthodox worship----and this is something that happened frequently throughout the centuries even though others aren't really aware of it as much.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When we over-react to things and cry "persecution" or "anti-semite" we do ourselves no good for our reputation. People tend to like equality, and think that sometimes they perceive that we ask for more favoritism. This is one reason why I sometimes cringe when it comes to the ADL. I often think we need to be wary or over-reaction but act strongly when it is truly necessary.

It'd be interesting if the ADL went through many of the occurrences that took place with Jewish groups being harmed and realizing how it either went in reverse at times...or was miscommunicated as such without really giving credit to when Semitic people were actually having attempts made to help them by the people they may've tried to seperate from at all levels. ....with that causing reactions. In line with that, I remember when you made a thread on the issue (or got involved, I believe) as it concerns discussing the issue of persecution toward Jews throughout history---and how much of it is not fully complete, especially in regards to figures like Martin Luther ( As seen #5 #41 #47 84 ). Many thanks for pointing those things out, as it does make a world of difference when it comes to having full understanding of events and seeing how much people are human.

 

[visionary]

These are just some quotes from the church fathers, I found on wiki. You can get the sources here.

Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

That is from
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus

Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion is also known as 'Against Heresies'

I've found this too you might want.

The Ebionites were not originally heretics. Their characteristic was the more or less strict insistence upon the observance of the Jewish law; a matter of cultus, therefore, not of theology, separated them from Gentile Christians. Among the early Jewish Christians existed all shades of opinion, in regard to the relation of the law and the Gospel, from the freest recognition of the uncircumcised Gentile Christian to the bitterest insistence upon the necessity for salvation of full observance of the Jewish law by Gentile as well as by Jewish Christians.

With the latter Paul himself had to contend, and as time went on, and Christianity spread more and more among the Gentiles, the breach only became wider. In the time of Justin there were two opposite tendencies among such Christians as still observed the Jewish law: some wished to impose it upon all Christians; others confined it to themselves. Upon the latter Justin looks with charity; but the former he condemns as schismatics (see Dial. c. Trypho. 47).
Read the whole thing in the side bar on this page. It is copyrighted, but you can put a link to it in your thread with an introduction about what it says.

Thanks Lulav.

 

[visionary]

Thanks for sharing as you did.

Concerning the many who often try to make it out as if Paul was dismissive of the Torah/its principles and the lessons from the OT that he often quoted from, I'm reminded of what occurred with what the Ebionites went through. For the Evyonim (Ebionites) at one point adopted the same interpretation of Paul as many modern Christians....but they realized that such an interpretation was contradictory to the Torah, and chose to reject his writings, rather than seek a perspective that would allow them reconcile his writings with the Torah.


To be clear, I think it should be noted that there were, of course, many variations of the Ebionites....though one of the more well-known variations claimed that Christ was merely a man (as the Ebionites say)---and that all Gentiles had to be circumcised/Keep the Sabbath in order to qualify for salvation. That, of course, went counter to the attitude that Christ had for the Gentiles when it came to them in their salvation. Luke 4 and his praising the Widow in Sidon as well as Naaman the Syrian are some of the greatest examples....and the same for Matthew 15 with his praising the Gentile lady who had a demon-possessed daughter and whom He noted as having great faith. Luke 7:1-10 and Matthew 8:5-13 also comes to mind with the Roman centurion who followed Christ.....a GOD-Fearer who loved the Jewish people but was not a full convert to Judaism...and one whom Christ said had more faith than any in all of Israel.

Though there were others who chose to try and find ways in which they could harmonize/renconcile his teaching with the Torah, there were indeed many who rejected it outright without any logical basis.

For more on the Ebionites, some sources that've been a blessing can be found under the following titles:

"Ebionites and Nazirites « Messianic Jewish Musings "
"JewishEncyclopedia.com - EBIONITES"
Nazarenes/Ebionites - A Christian Thinktank



"Heresy or Reasonable Theology? The Ebionites: Part 2"
Ebionites: diversity of the early Christianity - a knol by Zia Shah
One could argue that the Ebionites Sect advocating keeping all aspects of the Law was essentially a logical development from the Judaizers of Paul’s day in some of their mentalities, as seen in how they felt it was mandatory for ALL to keep the entire Mosaic law with special attention to circumcision and the Sabbath, and revered Jerusalem as if it were the abode of God. Their failure was to realize that all this pointed to something better, for Christ Himself spoke about the true worship in saying that neither on Mount Gerazim nor in Jerusalem is God to be worshipped, as in a locality, for God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth (John 4:20-24). And the apostles noted frequently how the Judaizers themselves did not truly know what Christ was talking on


It is always amazing when considering how the Ebionites choose to use only the Gospel of Matthew (despite how it went counter to their very claims/credibility), and choose to reject Paul as an apostate from the Law (Eusebius iii.27)....


Nevertheless, they were amazing people on a host of other levels....especially as it concerns their asectism, intentional choosing of living in poverty and their high regard for the Law. In some ways, they'd be similar to what occurred with the Essenes....



As much as the Ebionites tried to say that Paul was simply making up another religion without support when it came to his views on the Law, I think that they often misunderstood many things. For often, Paul made commentary that lined up EXACTLY with Christ's....and for many Jews, this was always an issue...except for the Apostles
2 Peter 3:15
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
What the Ebionites did often is similar to what others do whenever they try to make it out as if Pauline letters can be trusted less than what Jesus said---seeing how much the man went OUT of his way to quote Jesus directly in whatever it was He stated.....and the same thing goes for the other epistles not written by Paul. There was often no inconsistency between what Paul wrote and what Christ wrote...and one of the reasons why is because Christ made clear to Paul that the Lord had chosen him to reach out to the Gentiles.

This is made clear in Galatians 1:17-21 and Galatians 2:1-2, as it concerns the chronology of Saul's life as reported by Luke in the book of Acts...

To be clear, what's said further from here is in line with what David Stern said in his Jewish Bible Commentary. Procedding...

Paul made clear that His message was directly from Christ in Galatians 1:12, seeing that he was an observant Jew (Galatians 1:13-14) and had a special conversion experience....being confirmed in His ministry by the other apostles who had been with Jesus and knew intimately what the Lord talked about. Paul previously had been one of the most religious Jews of His day, scrupulously keeping the Law and relentlessly persecuting Christians (see Acts 9:1-2). Before His conversion he had been even more zealous for the Law than the Judaizers were whom He came against in the book of Galatians.. He was sincere in his zeal---but he was wrong....and when he met Jesus, His entire life was changed and he dedicated all of his energies toward building the Christian church.


As it concerns the rest of his life, on his way to Damascus (Acts 9:3-19), he came to faith and ended up staying there with the Messianic Jewish believers briefly, evangelisng in the synagouges (Acts 9:20-22). He immediately went off to Arabia ....and he was gone for a limit of about three years. Afterward, he returned to Damascus where he continued evangelising Jewish people until some of them hacthed murder plot, so that he had to escape by being lowered over the city wall in a basket (Acts 9:23-25, II Corinthians 11:30-35). Only then did Paul go up to Jerusalem (Acts 9:26-30) but just for two weeks. Paul wrote how he went to make Peter's acquaintance...but did not see any of the other emissaries/disciples except James, the brother of Christ. Of course, Barnabas was noted from leading Paul to the other emissaries in Acts 9:27 and techincally it was that Paul was introduced to all or most of the emissaries but spent no extended amount of time with them recieving instruction or discussing his version of the Good News......which was key for the Gentiles in their acceptance, as Christ intended.

Next he went to Syria and Cilicia, specifically to Tarsus (Acts 9:30) where he remained for a number of years until Barnabass brought him to be his assistant in Antioch (Acts 11:25-26). After some time, they both went to Jerusalem with the Anthoch congregation's contribution for the relief of the Judean Brothers (Acts 11:29-30, Acts 12:25) so that Paul's second visit here was only after foutteen years (Galatians 2:1)....and during this visit, He and Barnabas (Galatians 2:1) reached an agreement with the Jerusalem leaders on principles on Gentile Evangelism, as described in Galatians 2:2-10, After this, he and Barnabas evangelized the Gentiles (Acts 13:2 and Acts 14:1-23) and Paul wrote them thie letter from Antioch either during the "some time" of Acts 14:29 or after the events of Acts 15:1-2. At the time that the letter of Galatians was written, the Jerusalem Conference (Acts 15:3-29) had not yet happened..so that its more specific directives concerning how the Gospel was to be presented to Gentiles were announced to the Galatians by Paul only at a later time.

What Jesus did through the ministry of Paul was to show how Christianity is truly transcultural Judaism. For during the time Paul spent in Arabia, away from the company of others and guided by the Holy Spirit, Paul put together the outline of how the Gospel, hitherto confined within an ethnically Jewish framework, could be made independent of Jewish culture and thus fully available not only to Jews....but also to Gentiles without their having to convert to Judaism (Galatians 2:2, Galatians 2:6-9, Galatians 5:2-4, etc). Paul must had seen at once that the Pharisaic Judaism that he had learned fom Rabbi Gamliel (Acts 22:3) had been shaken by the coming of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah. But it must have taken him considerable time to think about the various specific issues------the nature of atonement and forgiveness, the authority of the written and Oral Torah, the meaning of the Messianic Prophecies, the role and future of the Jewish people, the preeminent requirement of trust for salvation, the role of ethics, and other essential theological matters---and to formulate and refine his views to what they were when he wrote the letters. As soon as he experienced God's call to be an emissary to the Gentiles, he must have realized that His need was not to be instructed in the Gospel as it had been presented to the Jews.....but to think and meditate privately on its implications for Gentiles. No one could guide him in this, for he would be pionerring...but his training as a Jewish scholar by Gamliliel uniquely equiped him to investigate these matters in a fundamental way.

The development of Paul's faith would have been a simpler process had the acceptance of Jesus been for him, as it was for some of his fellow Jews, merely adding to traditional Judaism the belief that Jesus is indeed the long-awaited Messiah. And it would have been simpler if the acceptance of Jesus had been for him what it doubtless was to many Gentiles he led to trust, namely, the acceptance of a new religion that displaced former pagan values and practices. To Paul, the revelation of Jesus as the Son of God emant neither of these, but a radical reexamination of all his former beliefs, which issuwed in a conception of religion that differed from the other emissaries. Messianic Judaism perhaps even more than theirs differed from then-current Non-Messianic Judaism. Only prolonged thought could enable him to see just how much of the old was to be abandoned, how much revised, how much retained unchanged. So although he wasted no time before plunging enthusiastcally into evangelizing (Acts 9:20, Acts 9:22-28), his real work was developing the implications of the Messiah's coming in the light of his deep knowledge of Judaism and in the light of God's call on him to communicate this Jewish truth to the non-Jewish world.

Thus, Paul's example was the perfect example of what Jesus was talking about when he said the following in Matthew 13:52:


Matthew 13:50-5251 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.
“Yes,” they replied.

52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”




From his vast treasure of Jewish knowledge, his many years in the Gentile world, and his personal experience with the Messiah Paul developed the foundations of the transcultural Judaism which came to be known as Christianity.....


Some of what Paul noted is actually very much in harmony with what Christ taught--and much of that can be better understood if understanding the times which Jesus lived in. For many scholars have often noted how Jesus was most likely a Pharisee---an issue that wouldn't have been a problem in light of the variations of Pharisees that existed in the days of Christ. For they were divided into at least three schools: the disciples of Shammai, Hillel, and Gamaliel. These schools were especially concerned about the proper administration of the temple. The school of Shammai, who represented the more conservative wing of the group, were dominant before the destruction of the temple in A.D 70 (Mishnah, Shabbat 1.4). But Hillel, representing a more liberal interpretation of the Jewish scriptures, had moved from Babylon to Jerusalem about a generation before Jesus, and gained influences as well. Jesus historically quoted often from this school---with many of his teachings going counter to those of the school of Shammai, the school which often composed the group of Pharisees he came against....especially as it concerns how to treat Gentiles.....and it is because of this that Jesus often came to blows with the type of Pharisees he did. For he was not with the camp saying the Gentiles had to adopt all Jewish customs. His parable of the Good Samaritan is evidence of that since the main hero is one whom Jews would've hated at the time.

Borrowed from another thread on another subject ... which was graciously offered up to be included in this thread.. for the connections to the Essenes and the Way of the first century... Thank you Easy... though I couldn't get the links to work.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Borrowed from another thread on another subject ... which was graciously offered up to be included in this thread.. for the connections to the Essenes and the Way of the first century... Thank you Easy... though I couldn't get the links to work.

Glad to know it blessed you.

On a side note, odd that the links from that post don't work, as I've been able to quote others in their postings and anything written can be included/taken elsewhere. Of course, there really isn't a problem in regards to reference since there is the option of highlighting the post #--as seen here in the one you quoted from me in #91 ..and the same with the one you quoted from Lulav's post/the links she included in her own, as seen here in #159

Shalom

 

[visionary]

History of Jewish Faith in Yeshua

 

[Gxg (G²)]

History of Jewish Faith in Yeshua

Cool to see how the resource is in book format

 

[mishkan]

Cool to see how the resource is in book format

Oh, I wish I could agree. The presentation is very pretty. But it is proprietary, and difficult for someone with poor vision. Perhaps it just escaped me, but I saw now way to download the plain text. And selecting the single page format and zooming in on the text only lasts for one page--when you turn the page, it returns to the default two-page layout with text too small for me to read.

But... it IS very attractive, and the programmer desrves kudos for his work so far. It just needs some tweaking in the interface.