Messianic History

[Gxg (G²)]

Oh, I wish I could agree. The presentation is very pretty. But it is proprietary, and difficult for someone with poor vision. Perhaps it just escaped me, but I saw now way to download the plain text. And selecting the single page format and zooming in on the text only lasts for one page--when you turn the page, it returns to the default two-page layout with text too small for me to read.

I was under the impression when I used it that turning the page would return the format back to a small font and you'd have to individually zoom in for each page. For myself, it wasn't that difficult (even though it's tedious, to a degree, and I wished it remained the same). I agree that the vision could have been better somewhat and you do have to focus in a bit to read it all...



On a side note, to be clear, did you mean "now way to download" or "no way to download" in your statement? I'm leaning toward the latter one as what you intended, although there can be other reasons as to why the former was used.

But... it IS very attractive, and the programmer desrves kudos for his work so far. It just needs some tweaking in the interface

 

[pat34lee]

Oh, I wish I could agree. The presentation is very pretty. But it is proprietary, and difficult for someone with poor vision. Perhaps it just escaped me, but I saw now way to download the plain text. And selecting the single page format and zooming in on the text only lasts for one page--when you turn the page, it returns to the default two-page layout with text too small for me to read.

But... it IS very attractive, and the programmer desrves kudos for his work so far. It just needs some tweaking in the interface.

If you click on the link in the upper left corner, it takes you to a main page where you can read it in other formats.

Or click here: The History of Jewish Christianity : Hugh J. Schonfield : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[visionary]

Thank the Lord for those who are Hebrew Catholics, though one point I think worth mentioning is that its not just the RC church which many Hebrew Catholics find their home. For one can also consider those who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine Catholics as well--and with those specific camps, there are some significant differences that many may not be aware of in all cases....as many Eastern Catholic rites are more similar to what occurs within Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy (i.e. Coptic Orthodox, Ethopian Orthodox..with the Ethopian Orthodox church having the most Judaic spirit to it since most of the Ethopians within it retained their Jewish culture to a significant degree). And sadly, as other scholars have noted, many Roman Catholics have never even heard of things such as Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Christianity for that matter.

Nonetheless, they're very beautiful to see in action. This is something I was glad to learn of from the Messianic Jewish Rabbi I work under, as he himself was a student within Eastern Christianity and experienced many times a myraid of expressions within Eastern Christian circles. It is because of this that many aspects of our fellowship (as seen here) incorporate aspects of Eastern Christianity frequently when it comes to teaching and insights. There was a discussion on the issue elsewhere that had many great insights--entitled Can a Hebrew Catholic be comfortable in a Melkite Church? . As another noted there, the Syriac and the Chaldean/Assyrian Churches are likely the most "Semitic" traditions for a number of reasons, with their Liturgies handed down from the time when they really were Hebrew Catholics...specifically, Temple Jewish Catholics. And for other places that've given some EXCELLENT discussion on the issue:

• Byzantine Jewess
• Byzantine 101: Before Visiting an Eastern Catholic Church
  
  
  
  
• Standing Up To The Great Schism, The Great Divide, and the Great -Divorce--The Groom's Family...
  
  
  
  
  
  

That is interesting..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That is interesting..

Surprised it was missed earlier

 

[visionary]

Surprised it was missed earlier

I was saying that is interesting... in I do not find the connection to Messianic History in all that catholic history.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I was saying that is interesting... in I do not find the connection to Messianic History in all that catholic history.

That was understood, as you've made clear the issue of how you dislike Catholic history whenever debates/discussions have occurred with other Jews who disagree, be it with Contra Mundum or others. But ultimately, IMHO, one can never escape all things Catholic nor do they need to when really understanding the history.....least of which is that the Bible most use was developed/cannonized by them

 

[visionary]

That was understood, as you've made clear the issue of how you dislike Catholic history whenever debates/discussions have occurred with other Jews who disagree, be it with Contra Mundum or others. But ultimately, IMHO, one can never escape all things Catholic nor do they need to when really understanding the history.....least of which is that the Bible most use was developed/cannonized by them

Which has nothing to do with this thread...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Which has nothing to do with this thread...

Not really, as there's NO escaping the fact that MESSIANIC Jews were involved in that process--if indeed discussing history of Messiaics. Contra noted that earlier thankfully as well as in other discussions when showing the development of Jews within Catholic circles ( as seen in #16 , #18, #21 , #133, #140 and#218 ). For history is history, just as it is when discussing Messianic culture in other camps...and it really doesn't address the history of other Jews/Messianic believers when it comes to Catholic Hebrews/their contributions being missed. But again, people are free to disagree. I side with Contra, personally....

 

[visionary]

Not really, as there's NO escaping the fact that MESSIANIC Jews were involved in that process--if indeed discussing history of Messiaics. Contra noted that earlier thankfully as well as in other discussions when showing the development of Jews within Catholic circles ( as seen in #16 , #18, #21 , #133, #140 and#218 ). For history is history, just as it is when discussing Messianic culture in other camps...and it really doesn't address the history of other Jews/Messianic believers when it comes to Catholic Hebrews/their contributions being missed. But again, people are free to disagree. I side with Contra, personally....

It is like this... you have one group walking the faith in Torah and Yeshua.. This thread is about following those who walk in faith in Torah and Yeshua... The contributions where encouragements or discouragements were given to this body of people were noted...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is like this... you have one group walking the faith in Torah and Yeshua.....

This thread is about following those who walk in faith in Torah and Yeshua...

One must show logically/credibly where it's only one group walking faith in Torah/Yeshua. As Contra and others have often noted, it's supporting pressuposition by assuming anything dealing with "Catholic" must somehow equate to those not walking in Torah. And ALOT of disagreements on that are superficial the majority of the time, often reflective of what many Protestants say when assuming only those within their camp reflect the Messiah...but it's not historical. People walk according to Torah/Yeshua in a myriad of camps and have always done so for centuries since the early church...and one cannot discuss history/Torah while avoiding that. It'd be akin to what often happens when others say that those of Jewish descent who're within Indigineous/"First Nations" groups aren't living according to "Torah" (in their view) because they don't live as they'd expect of themselves...or others saying that Ethopian Jews within the Ethopian Orthodox Church don't live according to Torah simply because they enjoy Orthoodxy--even though they still have the Judaic spirit/the bloodline and the practices of Festivals/Shabbat and the Ark of the Covenant.

The contributions where encouragements or discouragements were given to this body of people were noted

Cool.

 

[visionary]

One must show logically/credibly where it's only one group walking faith in Torah/Yeshua. As Contra and others have often noted, it's supporting pressuposition by assuming anything dealing with "Catholic" must somehow equate to those not walking in Torah. And ALOT of disagreements on that are superficial the majority of the time, often reflective of what many Protestants say when assuming only those within their camp reflect the Messiah...but it's not historical.

Cool.

really... that is worth discussing in another thread...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

really... that is worth discussing in another thread...

It's history, vis. Unless you can change up the OP and thus have it where every discussion/post discussing Jews in Orthodoxy or Catholicism or Protestants movements you noted ( here and here in simple examples ) are not supposed to be in the thread. One cannot mention (as you did earlier) folks like the "Jew who became the bishop of the West Syrian Jacobite church ( ABU’L FARAJ, Gregory ) or bring up the "Jewess of the Russian Orthodox persuasion (BEHR-SIGEL, Elizabeth )" as mentioned in #190 and say other Jews within Eastern Christianity (i.e. Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, etc) are not in the history of Messianic since even the West Syrians see the Jews in Catholicism in nearly the same way on several points, both groups considering the other as loving Torah and seeing their Jewish heritage honored before the Messiah. If Catholics are not within Messianic, thus are the West Syrian Jacobites and Russian Orthodox as well as others...as they're all interrelated/connected. Sister Gracia Singh mentioned the issue as well here in #164

As Contra noted, history is history and Messianics are involved in Catholic circles just as they've been in other camps brought throughout the thread thus far. One cannot change the subject of the OP when aspects of that subject disagree with what one likes. If you don't like it, one can just ignore it (as I commented on it months ago/left it alone after Contra and I discussed the subject)---but no need saying it's not "Messianic" when most Messianics disagree on the aspect of history.

But I do think it's a good discussion for more development later

 

[visionary]

It's history, vis. Unless you can change up the OP and thus have it where every discussion/post discussing Jews in Orthodoxy or Catholicism or Protestants movements you noted ( here and here in simple examples ) are not supposed to be in the thread. One cannot mention (as you did earlier) folks like the "Jew who became the bishop of the West Syrian Jacobite church ( ABU’L FARAJ, Gregory ) or bring up the "Jewess of the Russian Orthodox persuasion (BEHR-SIGEL, Elizabeth )" as mentioned in #190 and say other Jews within Eastern Christianity (i.e. Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, etc) are not in the history of Messianic since even the West Syrians see the Jews in Catholicism in nearly the same way on several points, both groups considering the other as loving Torah and seeing their Jewish heritage honored before the Messiah. If Catholics are not within Messianic, thus are the West Syrian Jacobites and Russian Orthodox as well as others...as they're all interrelated/connected. Sister Gracia Singh mentioned the issue as well here in #164

As Contra noted, history is history and Messianics are involved in Catholic circles just as they've been in other camps brought throughout the thread thus far. One cannot change the subject of the OP when aspects of that subject disagree with what one likes. If you don't like it, one can just ignore it (as I commented on it months ago/left it alone after Contra and I discussed the subject)---but no need saying it's not "Messianic" when most Messianics disagree on the aspect of history.

But I do think it's a good discussion for more development later

I found nothing in your post to relate to anything you mentioned above.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I found nothing in your post to relate to anything you mentioned above.

If already have the assumption that anything Catholic is disconnected from the very Jewish Messianics you brought up, be it the West Syrian Jacobite church ( ABU’L FARAJ, Gregory ) or the "Jewess of the Russian Orthodox persuasion (BEHR-SIGEL, Elizabeth )" as mentioned in #190 and a host of others that also work with Jews in Catholic circles/understand their Jewish heritage to be reflected in Messiah within Catholicism, then one really doesn't grasp Catholicism---and it may be beneficial to do better research.

But as said before, Brother ContraMundum already noted the issue earlier in the thread thankfully as well as in other discussions when showing the development of Jews within Catholic circles ( as seen in #16 , #18, #21 , #133, #140 and#218 )--and Sister Gracia Singh mentioned the issue as well here in #164, concerning Jews in Catholic circles.

Another branch of the Messianic Jewish faith flourished in South-West India for about 1400 years, in the Malayali-speaking state of Kerala.

Jews and Hindus already living in the area were evangelized by St. Thomas, and their customs, worship, and identity was uniquely Judeo-Christian.

NSC NETWORK – Lifestyle of Kerala Syrian Christians

NSC NETWORK – Some of the traditions and rituals among the Syrian Christians of Kerala

These Christians called themselves "Nasrani" or roughly "Nazarenes", worshipped in Aramaic, celebrated the Eastern Syriac liturgy on Saturday, kept kosher, and had Jewish names like Yakob, Simon, Thoma, Yohanan, etc.

Later contact with Portuguese missionaries greatly disrupted their traditions and practices, as many were converted into the Catholic Church, while others sought help from and joined the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Today, the St. Thomas Christians are Assyrian Chruch of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

Thank you for this contribution to the thread..

Anyone remotely knowledgeable with the St.Thomas Christians and the Jews involved is that they don't automatically divorce Jewishness from Catholicism since they are similar at multiple points, with divergences on specific points. They are within the world of Eastern Christianity (as is those who are Eastern Catholic Jews) and have noted that for centuries.


Thus, saying Jews in Catholic circles are not apart of Messianic history doesn't line up with what has already been shared... It's not hard to understand, v, when you're willing to acknowledge it. If you cannot go back/see where others were brought up by yourself or where you already agreed with others (as Sister Gracia Singh) who brought up Jews in Catholic circles, either one is overlooking something...or not willing to look. Either way, it's all good

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Another branch of the Messianic Jewish faith flourished in South-West India for about 1400 years, in the Malayali-speaking state of Kerala.

Jews and Hindus already living in the area were evangelized by St. Thomas, and their customs, worship, and identity was uniquely Judeo-Christian.

NSC NETWORK – Lifestyle of Kerala Syrian Christians

NSC NETWORK – Some of the traditions and rituals among the Syrian Christians of Kerala

These Christians called themselves "Nasrani" or roughly "Nazarenes", worshipped in Aramaic, celebrated the Eastern Syriac liturgy on Saturday, kept kosher, and had Jewish names like Yakob, Simon, Thoma, Yohanan, etc.

Later contact with Portuguese missionaries greatly disrupted their traditions and practices, as many were converted into the Catholic Church, while others sought help from and joined the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Today, the St. Thomas Christians are Assyrian Chruch of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

With what you mentioned with Indian Jews, it's interesting to see how their contribution to India’s economy, society and government have been recognized by various historians, writers and the government. And as it is, what's intriguing is witnessing how Indian Jews have never suffered anti-semitism India.....and there's already extensive amounts of Indians that've converted over to Judaism....from Christianity. There was one video I saw on the issue that may be of benefit, called Indian (Mumbai) Doctor converts to Judaism and now live in Kiryat Arba

All of that's interesting, seeing how both CHRISTIANITY and JUDAISM are Monotheistic/believing in One God (something others often say are reasons for why Hindu Terrorists attack the believers in India)--and yet, the Jewish system is what seems to get more acceptance across the wall.​

And of course, one has to be careful even in saying that Christians do not necessarily have acceptance in some instances.....for there has LONG been a strong Christian Prescence in India---especially as it concerns Eastern Christianity (St.Thomas) and those India Christians that've been long established...just like the Indian Jews there...all having to deal with the effects of the Hindu Caste System of power/influence.​

For more info, some articles one can investigate---one can go online/look up the following:​

• The Jews of India: A Place of Refuge, Peace and Prosperity by C. Kerr
• Rey Chow
• Ancient Christians in India | Under-Told Stories
• April 24, 2009 ~ Ancient Christians in India | Religion & Ethics NEWSWEEKLY ...

Also, one can always go to Youtube to find out more on the issue. For some videos one can investigate

Ancient Christians In India ​

Sadia Shepard and the Lost Jews of India-Artstreet Miami ​

Indian Christians - One of world's ancient Christian community - Syrian Christians of Kerala - 1 ​

Indian Christians - One of world's ancient Christian community - Syrian Christians of Kerala - 2 ​

Be'chol Lashon in India ​

Additionally

India celebrates Hanukkah​

Many have been extremely mistreated due to the background they come from....and seeing how many Jews treat one another, it seems like nothing more than the reality of happened with the Jews and Samaritans....seeing that there was a deep hatred that existed between the Jews and the Samaritans. The Jews saw themselves as pure descendents of Abraham, while the Samaritans were a mixed race produced when THE Jews from the northern kingdom intermarried with other peoples imported from other nations by the King of Assyria after the exile in order to keep peace (II Kings 17:24). The Jews in the southern kingdom considered Samaratins to be “IMPURE”RACIALLY/refused to recieve help from, even during the rebuilding/return from EXILE. Thus the pure Jews hated this mixed race because they felt that their fellow Jews who had intermarried had betrayed their people/nation…….and the Samaratins had set up an alternate center for worship on Mount Gerizim to parallel the temple at Jerusalem, but it had been destroyed 150 YEARS earlie ( II Kings 17/, Ezra 4 , Nehemiah 2 , Nehemiah 4, etc).

As time went on, relations between the 2 groups got progressively worse, even into Jesus's day..and hence, the reason why Jesus chose to have a Samaritan be the hero of his parable, as he would have been the person least suspected by a Jew to be worthy/capable of anything, Luke 10:27 )…..and moreover, the reason why JESUS HIMSELF WAS INTENTIONAL ABOUT MINISTERING TO Samaritans....like Jesus when he interacted with others like the Samaritan Woman (John 4 )---and going places that were often "forbidden" as with Samaritan territory ( Luke 9:51-53 / Luke 9 )


And so it is with many who Indian Jews----as many who serve the Lord may not feel like they're accepted ...yet they know Yeshua has taken time to invest in them just as much as He will with other Jews. And even with those Jews who've not yet accepted the Messiah as Lord/Savior, it can be difficult enough for a Jewish person to simply come to faith/accept what is said of Yeshua to be true.

Really, Its always sad to see the ways in which we can box others in/not appreciate differing ways of expression and culture. Thanks for bringing up what you did, though

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is interesting to note that the first Hebrew congregation of the modern era was very well received by the Church at large, and this paved the way for the modern Messianic movement, which has been a generally good development in the church.
.

The way the Lord works in bringing things to fruition is amazing

 

[visionary]

Jewish Church (the Nazarenes) retained its Jewish identity, functioning as the remnant of Israel in the midst of the Jewish community. By the 7th century, though, Jewish Christianity basicly disappeared.

Nazarenes

 

[visionary]

In honor of St. Patrick's Day... I would like to present a non RCC version of the man and his faith which included keeping the Sabbath and the feasts...

"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labor. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." (James C. Moffatt, D. D.,The Church in Scotland, Philadelphia: 1882, p.140)

"In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." (W.T. Skene, Adamnan Life of St. Columba, 1874, p.96)

As noted above, the Christianity which first reached France and Britian was of the school of the apostle John, who ruled the churches in Asia Minor. Colonists from Asia Minor laid the foundations of the pre-Patrick church. They brought with them the doctrine which they received of John, Paul, Philip, and the other apostles of the Lord, which included not only the observance of the seventh day Sabbath, but also the commemoration of Christ's death upon the 14th of Abib--Passover!

"It is probable that the primitive Christians kept the Pasch on the 14th of Nisan as determined by the Jewish authorities, and regarded it as the anniversary of the crucifixion. ...The churches of the Roman province of Asia...followed the older custom, keeping the Pasch on the 14th of Nisan, whatever the day of the week." (James F. Kenney, The Sources for the Early History of Ireland, Vol.1, pp.211, 212; Columbia University Press, New York, 1929)

"...they ignorantly refuse to observe our Easter [Pascha] on which Christ was sacrificed, arguing that it should be observed with the Hebrew Passover on the fourteenth of the moon." (Bede, Historia Ecclesiastica, II, 19 wherein Bede quoted "Pope" John's words concerning the Celtic brethren)

Other doctrines that Patrick, Columba, and the Celtic assemblies held included the observation of the other Festivals of the Eternal (Lev.23), the belief in the mortality of man and the hope of the resurrection (vs. immortality of the soul and going to heaven, hell, and/or purgatory); the distinction between clean and unclean animals; "improvised" prayers (from the heart, rather than merely from the lip with repetitions); that Christ Jesus is our only Mediator--as opposed to various "saints," Mary, angels, etc.; and that redemption and atonement comes through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ alone--separate from works and heeding commandments/doctrines of men (see The Celtic Church in Britian by Leslie Hardinge, as well as Truth Triumphant by B.G. Wilkinson, for documentation).

"The Roman Catholics have proudly and exclusively claimed St. Patrick, and most Protestants have ignorantly or indifferently allowed their claim...But he was no Romanist. His life and evangelical Church of the 5th century ought to be better known." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Vol. VII, p.776; article: Patrick, St.)

"Saint Patrick" and the Early Celtic Church: Sunday-Keeping Catholics or Sabbath-observant Christians?

 

[Avodat]

Parts of Scotland still maintain the Saturday Sabbath - but it is under great attack by secularists.

 

[FredVB]

Thanks for the submission of information for looking at Celtic Church history, I will want to be studying this now, and will look at resources for it to learn more about it.

The heirs and the converts to the covenant to Israel seeking obedience to its commandments from Yahweh are Jews. Followers of Jesus Christ, whether called by that name or what corresponds to it, i.e. as Yeshua, with faith in him are Christians, those with faith in him for salvation are saved. Many through history are both Jews and Christians, this occurs in various cultures. There is no good reason to say Jewish Christians can only be from one culture or religious environment. If Messianic refers to Jewish Christian, than it can include those of any culture. There is the additional occurrence of gentile believers who take on Jewish practices, an additional thing that is not required of those who are not Jewish in becoming believers in Christ, other than conforming to the morality from revelation from God in the old testament according to the teachings of Christ, the apostles whom he appointed, and certainly the epistle sent for addressing this from the apostolic council in Jerusalem with the leading of the Spirit of God and sent according to Acts 15.