Messianic History

[jcpro]

We have Hebrew Christians on this area of the forum who consider themselves to be Messianics.. It is like this.. if you are leaving Judaism as a Jew and find Jesus, even a catholic version, to be your savior, can you call yourself a Messianic Jew. Messianic meaning you believer Jesus is your messiah, and Jew because of your bloodline. Or should I delete that Jew because he didn't keep his Judaism when he became a catholic?

I thought MJ existed by certain rules. Roman Catholics generally don't consider themeselves attached to Judaism in any way. In Eastern Europe, where I came from, even the idea of Jewish Jesus was controversial. Personally I know a couple of converts and none of them can be called Messianic. They're Jews by birth, but they have completely forsaken their heritage and religion. I thought MJ was Torah observant Christians. No?

 

[visionary]

So should I delete those Jews who have forsaken Judaism for a "Jesus"

 

[jcpro]

So should I delete those Jews who have forsaken Judaism for a "Jesus"

No. They should be classified in their proper denomination. A Jewish born Catholic could be considered a Messianic, but he/she does not belong in the MJ's denomination or Judaism for that matter(unless that individual decides to leave the Church behind). He/she is a Catholic.

 

[visionary]

No. They should be classified in their proper denomination. A Jewish born Catholic could be considered a Messianic, but he/she does not belong in the MJ's denomination or Judaism for that matter(unless that individual decides to leave the Church behind). He/she is a Catholic.

I agree with you but it was a hard battle here on the forum over this very issue and hence the answer was a subforum for those who are not Judaism Messianic faith.

 

[GuardianShua]

I agree with you but it was a hard battle here on the forum over this very issue and hence the answer was a subforum for those who are not Judaism Messianic faith.

I think you meant: a subforum for those who are Judaism Messianic faith.

 

[jcpro]

I agree with you but it was a hard battle here on the forum over this very issue and hence the answer was a subforum for those who are not Judaism Messianic faith.

It really is a non issue. It's just common sense. A convert who leaves Judaism behind becomes Hebrew Muslim or Buddist or whatever, but he can't be both.

 

[visionary]

I think you meant: a subforum for those who are Judaism Messianic faith.

Noo... Hebrew Christians are Jews who have taken on the faith without Judaism

 

[GuardianShua]

Noo... Hebrew Christians are Jews who have taken on the faith without Judaism

The disciples were Jews of Judaism. The first converts were called converts to Judaism before they were called Christians. Hundreds of years later the disciples were called Judaizers. The New Covenant does not exclude Judaism as its origins and beliefs. What I have said is in our bibles and history. True Christianity is the fulfillment of the Judaic faith.

 

[visionary]

The disciples were Jews of Judaism. The first converts were called converts to Judaism before they were called Christians. Hundreds of years later the disciples were called Judaizers. The New Covenant does not exclude Judaism as its origins and beliefs. What I have said is in our bibles and history. True Christianity is the fulfillment of the Judaic faith.

So... then I will clarify those Jews who accepted for Jesus without Judaism.

 

[GuardianShua]

So... then I will delete all those Jews who abandon their Judaism for Jesus.

God will not abandon any of those of the Old Covenant that are His. But we now have a New Covenant to go by. The "true" Christians did not abandon Judaism. Simply put, the New Covenant brought about some changes.

 

[visionary]

God will not abandon any of those of the Old Covenant that are His. But we now have a New Covenant to go by. The "true" Christians did not abandon Judaism. Simply put, the New Covenant brought about some changes.

In this thread we are trying to collect all the history of the faith, not the branches that the Lord would/will break off. If a Jew brings to the table the richness of the Hebrew language and understanding to those who profess faith in Jesus, it that a help or a hindrance to spiritual understanding?

 

[jcpro]

If a Jew brings to the table the richness of the Hebrew language and understanding to those who profess faith in Jesus, it that a help or a hindrance to spiritual understanding?

I don't know about that, but I do know that conversion away from Judaism does not translate well to subsquent generations. It simply dies. We have examples of forced mass converions in Portugal, Spain and the Middle East. In each of these cases Judaism did not survived the process. Whatever Jews bring to the table seem of little value compared to what is lost from the Jewish table.

 

[GuardianShua]

In this thread we are trying to collect all the history of the faith, not the branches that the Lord would/will break off. If a Jew brings to the table the richness of the Hebrew language and understanding to those who profess faith in Jesus, it that a help or a hindrance to spiritual understanding?

As an example, the broken off branches were the Hellenist. It was the Hellenist who had Yahshua put to death. That High Priest in that day was a Hellenist. That is what made the synagogue a synagogue of Satan. With the passing of the disciples Christianity became two camps; the Catholics, and the Judaizers.
Or a person may say: Universal believers and Judaism.
Catholic, The term catholic (Greek katholikos, “universal,” from katholou, “in general”) It was first used in the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans. In that day it was also known that Catha is from the Etruscan root cath-, meaning "the sun." Catha was a sun goddess. Mother mary - Google Search

 

[GuardianShua]

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Smyrnaeans Christians kept the Sabbath while Rome was adding Sunday...

History - Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Smyrnaean Orthodox)

Interesting read..

 

[GuardianShua]

And then there is the woman of Revelation 17. She rides a beast (nation) that has 7 hills. Two women, and one is a deceiver

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't know about that, but I do know that conversion away from Judaism does not translate well to subsquent generations. It simply dies. We have examples of forced mass converions in Portugal, Spain and the Middle East. In each of these cases Judaism did not survived the process. Whatever Jews bring to the table seem of little value compared to what is lost from the Jewish table.

Interesting point, but the last sentence I think is a little negative. If you think big picture, the effect that Judaism has had on the world is immense (laws, belief in the one creator God etc), and (I believe) in that sense it has been truly fulfilled in the Messiah's Covenant.

You are right, however, that certain external aspects of yiddishkeit do not survive once people leave the community- but I hate to say it, that says more about thought and information control in the community than anything else, if you ask me.

 

[ContraMundum]

I thought MJ existed by certain rules. Roman Catholics generally don't consider themeselves attached to Judaism in any way.

Actually, it is quite the opposite. AHC Home

Not to mention some of the most outstanding works on the Jewish root of Christianity have been written by RC scholars.

In Eastern Europe, where I came from, even the idea of Jewish Jesus was controversial.

That says more about the prejudice of those people than the beliefs of the Christian faith.

Personally I know a couple of converts and none of them can be called Messianic. They're Jews by birth, but they have completely forsaken their heritage and religion.

That is their own personal choice.

 

[FredVB]

In this thread we are trying to collect all the history of the faith, not the branches that the Lord would/will break off. If a Jew brings to the table the richness of the Hebrew language and understanding to those who profess faith in Jesus, it that a help or a hindrance to spiritual understanding?

The great gift to faith in Jesus that Judaism brings is the Bible itself. More of Jewish understanding can help insofar as it clarifies understanding of things in the Bible, including understanding from the Hebrew language.

As conversion to Christianity is discussed, I believe we can see that only with Christianity is there complete consistency for Judaism, as far as holding to the Bible. Other religions depart too greatly from biblical faith for true integration.

We might also remember that Jews include not only those born Jewish, but also converts to Judaism. Should it ever happen that such converts further converted to Christianity (as I believe it did happen at some time, at least in new testament times), they would still be Jewish Christians, and it would be very reasonable for them to still hold to the practices that would lead to considering them Messianic Jews.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Roman Catholics generally don't consider themeselves attached to Judaism in any way.

Actually, it is quite the opposite. AHC Home

Not to mention some of the most outstanding works on the Jewish root of Christianity have been written by RC scholars.
.

Thank the Lord for those who are Hebrew Catholics, though one point I think worth mentioning is that its not just the RC church which many Hebrew Catholics find their home. For one can also consider those who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine Catholics as well--and with those specific camps, there are some significant differences that many may not be aware of in all cases....as many Eastern Catholic rites are more similar to what occurs within Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy (i.e. Coptic Orthodox, Ethopian Orthodox..with the Ethopian Orthodox church having the most Judaic spirit to it since most of the Ethopians within it retained their Jewish culture to a significant degree). And sadly, as other scholars have noted, many Roman Catholics have never even heard of things such as Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Christianity for that matter.

Nonetheless, they're very beautiful to see in action. This is something I was glad to learn of from the Messianic Jewish Rabbi I work under, as he himself was a student within Eastern Christianity and experienced many times a myraid of expressions within Eastern Christian circles. It is because of this that many aspects of our fellowship (as seen here) incorporate aspects of Eastern Christianity frequently when it comes to teaching and insights. There was a discussion on the issue elsewhere that had many great insights--entitled Can a Hebrew Catholic be comfortable in a Melkite Church? . As another noted there, the Syriac and the Chaldean/Assyrian Churches are likely the most "Semitic" traditions for a number of reasons, with their Liturgies handed down from the time when they really were Hebrew Catholics...specifically, Temple Jewish Catholics. And for other places that've given some EXCELLENT discussion on the issue:

• Byzantine Jewess
• Byzantine 101: Before Visiting an Eastern Catholic Church
  
  
  
  
• Standing Up To The Great Schism, The Great Divide, and the Great -Divorce--The Groom's Family...