Messianic History

[visionary]

The Eastern Churches celebrate Pascha on the Sunday (actually Saturday after sunset) after Passover (this year is May 1st).

or is it April 1st?.. Ooooppps!.. that's RRC this year.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

or is it April 1st?.. Ooooppps!.. that's RRC this year.

Yes, Church of rome and their daughters the protestants will celebrate "easter" on March 27th.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Eastern Churches always celebrate Pascha on Yom HaBikkurim (the Sunday after Passover). We start counting the omer for Pentecost on that day.

 

[Dave-W]

Shalom, Brother! On the Holy Spirit, I just say that the Spirit comes from the Father and the Son, and helps us to follow the Son.

That phrase was a major part in the split 1000 years ago between the Eastern and Western churches.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,"

Note the "and the Son" is missing from the scripture.

 

[Dave-W]

The Eastern Churches always celebrate Pascha on Yom HaBikkurim (the Sunday after Passover). We start counting the omer for Pentecost on that day.

Ah - you use the Karaite calculation. So do I.

 

[anna ~ grace]

True. But for me, when Christ breathes on His disciples and says "receive the Holy Spirit", this seems to indicate that the Spirit of God comes from the Father and the Son. Galatians 4:6 also seems to indicate that the Spirit comes from God and His Messiah. To me, at least. If whatever the Father has He has given His Son, Scripture seems to indicate that the Father has given His Son His Spirit and the capacity to grant His Spirit to believers, too.

That phrase was a major part in the split 1000 years ago between the Eastern and Western churches.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,"

Note the "and the Son" is missing from the scripture.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That phrase was a major part in the split 1000 years ago between the Eastern and Western churches.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,"

Note the "and the Son" is missing from the scripture.

Yes, that is the roman "filioque" addition

 

[Alex Tennent]

That is not a "Roman" belief LOL! It is right in Scripture!

HaDerekh what you had written said: "We know that Messiah existed eternally with the Father before His Incarnation."

I certainly don't see that in the history of those who, like Moses, King David, and the Jewish prophets, believed in a coming Messiah. King David spoke of a coming Messiah, but he did not say he existed somewhere then. He also spoke of the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha Kodesh) but he certainly didn't think that was a second God, or one third of God, or he would have tols us so:

NAS Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me.

The great prophet Isaiah gives us the following statement from God, where God says there is no God besides Himself, He does not say there is no God besides "us":


NAS Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

And if there is a second eternal God called Messiah, when did God form him, since God says there will be no other God before Him or after:

NAS Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

And why would the Messiah (who you seem to believe was one of the Gods?) say that his Father was the only true God:


NAS John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

 

[Alex Tennent]

The Eastern Churches always celebrate Pascha on Yom HaBikkurim (the Sunday after Passover).

Yes, this is all covered in my chapter on the Jewish Disconnect. The question is who gave Rome the power to change the God given dates for the Passover? This all came about through Constantine as he wanted the Jewish understandings (and Jews themselves) to all be seen as evil. He wanted Roman beliefs to become prominent and to accomplish that he needed so sever everything from the Jewish foundation. This is why he stated a change in dates for the Pascha, that it never be celebrated on the same day as with those "bad" Jewish people who were not accepting the Roman beliefs (like Ashtoroth/Easter).

 

[Alex Tennent]

Yes, Church of rome and their daughters the protestants

Their daughters?!!! Ouch!!!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

HaDerekh what you had written said: "We know that Messiah existed eternally with the Father before His Incarnation."

I certainly don't see that in the history of those who, like Moses, King David, and the Jewish prophets, believed in a coming Messiah. King David spoke of a coming Messiah, but he did not say he existed somewhere then. He also spoke of the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha Kodesh) but he certainly didn't think that was a second God, or one third of God, or he would have tols us so:

NAS Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me.

The great prophet Isaiah gives us the following statement from God, where God says there is no God besides Himself, He does not say there is no God besides "us":


NAS Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

And if there is a second eternal God called Messiah, when did God form him, since God says there will be no other God before Him or after:

NAS Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

And why would the Messiah (who you seem to believe was one of the Gods?) say that his Father was the only true God:


NAS John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

Wow, really? Read John...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God..."
John 1:1-2, 15

"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man... He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:13, 31

"But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent." John 5:36-38

"... not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father... Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?" John 6:46, 62

"You know me, and you know where I come from. But I have not come of my own accord. He who sent me is true, and him you do not know. I know him, for I come from him, and he sent me." John 7:28-29

"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." John 8:23

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, this is all covered in my chapter on the Jewish Disconnect. The question is who gave Rome the power to change the God given dates for the Passover? This all came about through Constantine as he wanted the Jewish understandings (and Jews themselves) to all be seen as evil. He wanted Roman beliefs to become prominent and to accomplish that he needed so sever everything from the Jewish foundation. This is why he stated a change in dates for the Pascha, that it never be celebrated on the same day as with those "bad" Jewish people who were not accepting the Roman beliefs (like Ashtoroth/Easter).

Passover and Yom HaBikkarim are on different days, how can you celebrate them on the same day? You need to study the calendars used...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Their daughters?!!! Ouch!!!

Rome itself was the first protestant in 1054...then out of mother Rome, daughters were born from the reformation to this very day...1000s of offspring...

 

[pat34lee]

Rome itself was the first protestant in 1054...then out of mother Rome, daughters were born from the reformation to this very day...1000s of offspring...

And upon her forehead was the name written: MYSTERY, BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Wow, really? Read John...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God..."
John 1:1-2, 15

"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man... He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all." John 3:13, 31

"But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent." John 5:36-38

"... not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father... Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?" John 6:46, 62

"You know me, and you know where I come from. But I have not come of my own accord. He who sent me is true, and him you do not know. I know him, for I come from him, and he sent me." John 7:28-29

"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." John 8:23

"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

Yes HaDerekh, those are some very good scriptures too. But they must be understood from within the Jewish idioms and understandings in their day, not from the Roman grid that came hundreds of years later. Rome had various Gods and families of Gods. Their Caesars were often considered as Gods, so in their mind Jesus could not be anything less than one of the Gods. But the problem with that is that the Jews clearly understood there was one God, so they were not going to buy into the Roman concepts. Especially since Yeshua himself said his Father was the only true God (apparently you believe he was wrong here?--- i.e. in in John 17:3). Wouldn't you at least admit that the Jewish Messianic believers never believed in the Roman concept that God had a mother? Do you really believe they thought Mary was God's mother?

 

[Alex Tennent]

Rome itself was the first protestant in 1054...then out of mother Rome, daughters were born from the reformation to this very day...1000s of offspring...

But the Messianic Jewish believers existed long before the Roman Church came along, so is Rome their daughter!???

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes HaDerekh, those are some very good scriptures too. But they must be understood from within the Jewish idioms and understandings in their day, not from the Roman grid that came hundreds of years later. Rome had various Gods and families of Gods. Their Caesars were often considered as Gods, so in their mind Jesus could not be anything less than one of the Gods. But the problem with that is that the Jews clearly understood there was one God, so they were not going to buy into the Roman concepts. Especially since Yeshua himself said his Father was the only true God (apparently you believe he was wrong here?--- i.e. in in John 17:3). Wouldn't you at least admit that the Jewish Messianic believers never believed in the Roman concept that God had a mother? Do you really believe they thought Mary was God's mother?

So do you NOT believe Yeshua was pre-existent with The Father before the Incarnation? So you are non-Trinitarian I assume? Mary was not "God's" mother, but Yeshua being God, she bore Him in her womb, so in essence she was His mother. He just did not just appear one day, he was born from Mary. We could get into a heavy theological discussion if you want to...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But the Messianic Jewish believers existed long before the Roman Church came along, so is Rome their daughter!???

What did they have to do with Rome? How could Rome be their daughter? The assimilation of Jewish believers would be more in the Eastern churches, but Roman Jews would have likely assimilated into Rome. There were lots of other gnostic sects back then too without any rooting to any Apostolic Bishopric.

 

[Alex Tennent]

So do you NOT believe Yeshua was pre-existent with The Father before the Incarnation? So you are non-Trinitarian I assume? Mary was not "God's" mother

So Mary is not God's mother, but she is "the Mother of God?"

And to answer your question, no, Yeshua did not "pre-exist." You either exist, or you do not exist, but you do not pre-exist.

But let me ask you two simple questions:

If "Jesus God" was up in heaven, or out there pre ixisting somewhere, Why does God the Father say there was no God beside him, He knows not any:

NAS Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
KJV Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

And why then does "Jesus God" specifically tell us that his Father is the only true God, if Jesus God is also a true God?

NAS John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

Ok, those are two very clear straightforward questions, please answer them directly and clearly, and then I will answer two questions from you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So Mary is not God's mother, but she is "the Mother of God?"

And to answer your question, no, Yeshua did not "pre-exist." You either exist, or you do not exist, but you do not pre-exist.

But let me ask you two simple questions:

If "Jesus God" was up in heaven, or out there pre ixisting somewhere, Why does God the Father say there was no God beside him, He knows not any:

NAS Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
KJV Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

And why then does "Jesus God" specifically tell us that his Father is the only true God, if Jesus God is also a true God?

NAS John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

Ok, those are two very clear straightforward questions, please answer them directly and clearly, and then I will answer two questions from you.

Absolutely you do if you are God! He is before time and outside of time. God has no mother because he has no creation. However, Yeshua was born, so He would have a mother, and being both God and Man (I know you do not believe this), Mary was the "God Bearer", because she bore God in her womb (that is what Theotokos means). Also, Yeshua being both God and Man, being born of Mary, she would be His mother. Yes there are no other gods besides the One True God, and Yeshua is part of that Echad with His Father.