Messianic History

[HannibalFlavius]

Visionary,

I had copied, pasted and printed out the history in 1500's with regards to no Jews or people practicing Judaism under the Roman Catholic church. And if one were to be found doing so they would be excommunicated from the RCC. And if they continued to do so than there would be no help for them. Not even for the poor people.

I read it last night and I was interested. To even think that the RCC had banned all Jewish thought, practices and beliefs. However did they not do this way before that also?

So after reading the article it goes to show how much of the false teachings have sneaked into the body of Yeshua. And still accept to be truth and if one were to believe otherwise than one would be excommunicated from the church.

Any thoughts on this?

Moriah Ruth

They banned Jewish thought 100 years after Jesus died.

During the days of Hadrian, the Greek Orthodox made a deal to reject the feasts of Jesus, Jews exiled and synagogues given to the Greek





If you put yourself in the shoes of a Christian who wants to keep the Passover after the Jewish war, you were seen as a Jew, taxed as a Jew, hated worse than a Jew.


Constantine made his laws, and there are countless of records showing the persecution of anyone who did anything Jewish.


The Holocaust could not have happened without Christianity deeming the ways of God evil.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

to the people saying "monarchy is not in Torah" - - -

1) ... have you read the Torah ?

2) Do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king ?

Yes, I have read and studied the Torah. As a result of my studies, I cannot find a reference to monarchy. Perhaps you can provide reference, if you know of one, found in the Torah?

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Hi Hannibal, it is good to see you again. I pray that all is well with you.

Thank you for that little bit if information. I must admit that I do not know much on church history or who came about in what century or what had transpired down through the centuries. Some things I do know but not all. I am still learning.

What I do find interesting is all these denominations that came from the RCC and the mindset that they all have.

Is there not one group of believers in Yeshua or church that did not come from the RCC mindset?

Moriah Ruth

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yes, I have read and studied the Torah. As a result of my studies, I cannot find a reference to monarchy. Perhaps you can provide reference, if you know of one, found in the Torah?

Wow lol. OK since you are apparently serious:

DEVARIM 17:
14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,”
15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.
16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.”
17 He must not multiply wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests.
19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.


I answered your first question. Samuel goes on to answer you, in the sense that it relates the narrative of God choosing David and his descendants which include my king and ruler, Yeshua.

Is He your king ?

(You didn't answer when I initially asked "do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king" but I suspect I'd like to hear your answer.)

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Wow lol. OK since you are apparently serious:

DEVARIM 17:
14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,”
15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.
16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.”
17 He must not multiply wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests.
19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.


I answered your first question. Samuel goes on to answer you, in the sense that it relates the narrative of God choosing David and his descendants which include my king and ruler, Yeshua.

Is He your king ?

(You didn't answer when I initially asked "do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king" but I suspect I'd like to hear your answer.)

H4431
מלך
melak
mel-ak'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H4427 in the sense of consultation; advice: - counsel.

This is the definition which I believe most accurately describes the function of the Leader of the whole House of Israel. As we see with Moshe, the people came to him for consultation on matters of the Law. As he counseled and advised the people, his father-in-law asked why he was trying to accomplish this task all on his own. So, others were appointed under Moses to assist with judging matters of the Law. The Leader of the House of Israel works closely with the High Priest. (As we see with Moshe and Aharon, as well as with Yehoshua and Eleazar.) I believe mem/lamed/kaph was inaccurately described in translation (to English) as "king". Our western mindset leads us to envision a monarchy, but this description does not accurately match what is found in the Torah. Again, I believe the definition posted above does accurately match the job description of Moses and Joshua when compared to what is written in the Torah. Moses and Joshua can also be described as "Prophet of Israel".


The "kingdom" was to be rent from the hand of Solomon. The ten tribes taken from him retained the name Israel (Jacob) over them and Judah singled out apart from Israel. This was spoken by YHWH to the Prophet, Ahijah, who was from Shiloh.


I identify more with what you'll find in my signature line.

 

[Tishri1]

FYI: 20 posts were split to create a new topic here
http://www.christianforums.com/t7833082/

MOD hat off

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Wow lol. OK since you are apparently serious:

DEVARIM 17:
14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,”
15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.
16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.”
17 He must not multiply wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests.
19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.


I answered your first question. Samuel goes on to answer you, in the sense that it relates the narrative of God choosing David and his descendants which include my king and ruler, Yeshua.

Is He your king ?

(You didn't answer when I initially asked "do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king" but I suspect I'd like to hear your answer.)

H4431
מלך
melak
mel-ak'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H4427 in the sense of consultation; advice: - counsel.

This is the definition which I believe most accurately describes the function of the Leader of the whole House of Israel. As we see with Moshe, the people came to him for consultation on matters of the Law. As he counseled and advised the people, his father-in-law asked why he was trying to accomplish this task all on his own. So, others were appointed under Moses to assist with judging matters of the Law. The Leader of the House of Israel works closely with the High Priest. (As we see with Moshe and Aharon, as well as with Yehoshua and Eleazar.) I believe mem/lamed/kaph was inaccurately described in translation (to English) as "king". Our western mindset leads us to envision a monarchy, but this description does not accurately match what is found in the Torah. Again, I believe the definition posted above does accurately match the job description of Moses and Joshua when compared to what is written in the Torah. Moses and Joshua can also be described as "Prophet of Israel".


The "kingdom" was to be rent from the hand of Solomon. The ten tribes taken from him retained the name Israel (Jacob) over them and Judah singled out apart from Israel. This was spoken by YHWH to the Prophet, Ahijah, who was from Shiloh.


I identify more with what you'll find in my signature line.

 

[FredVB]

What in the description of the king that Israel might come to have could have meant any other person than a king? All of that might only apply distinctly to a king. And Yahweh was to be uniquely their king, but knowing the demand for a human king of this earth that they would come to make, it was in God's plan to use that, first appointing a promising leader for their perceiving what having such a king meant, and with his failure to remain obedient faithfully to Yahweh, appointing another with a heart for God and the ways of God, using this man with his faithfulness to bring the descent having it lead to the Messiah who was promised, that along with redemption through this God will truly reign fully.

 

[yonah_mishael]

מֶ֫לֶךְ mélech means “king.” I don’t know why anyone would want to suggest otherwise. Perhaps it means something else in Aramaic as a verbal root, or perhaps there is some other noun associated with this root in Aramaic (since what you quoted here is Aramaic [Chaldee] and not Hebrew; and I’m sure that the word מַלְכָּא malka means “king” in Aramaic, too), but in Hebrew the word for “counsel” is from the word עֵצָה etsa and has nothing to do with the מ.ל.ך m-l-k root. A counselor is called יוֹעֵץ yo’ets in Hebrew.

 

[Hoshiyya]

H4431
מלך
melak
mel-ak'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H4427 in the sense of consultation; advice: - counsel.

This is the definition which I believe most accurately describes the function of the Leader of the whole House of Israel. As we see with Moshe, the people came to him for consultation on matters of the Law. As he counseled and advised the people, his father-in-law asked why he was trying to accomplish this task all on his own. So, others were appointed under Moses to assist with judging matters of the Law. The Leader of the House of Israel works closely with the High Priest. (As we see with Moshe and Aharon, as well as with Yehoshua and Eleazar.) I believe mem/lamed/kaph was inaccurately described in translation (to English) as "king". Our western mindset leads us to envision a monarchy, but this description does not accurately match what is found in the Torah. Again, I believe the definition posted above does accurately match the job description of Moses and Joshua when compared to what is written in the Torah. Moses and Joshua can also be described as "Prophet of Israel".


The "kingdom" was to be rent from the hand of Solomon. The ten tribes taken from him retained the name Israel (Jacob) over them and Judah singled out apart from Israel. This was spoken by YHWH to the Prophet, Ahijah, who was from Shiloh.


I identify more with what you'll find in my signature line.

I didn't mean to, and don't want, to sound snarky Sev, it's just that I literally cannot accept that a person is unable to see that monarchy is in the Torah.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I didn't mean to, and don't want, to sound snarky Sev, it's just that I literally cannot accept that a person is unable to see that monarchy is in the Torah.

That's okay.

I hope you were able to see my point of view the same as I can see your point of view.

 

[danny ski]

to the people saying "monarchy is not in Torah" - - -

1) ... have you read the Torah ?

2) Do you NOT accept Yeshua as your king ?

There are no kings in the Torah, there is no monarchy in the Torah. The prophecy regarding people wanting a king and rules for such individual are in the Torah. Asking for a king is rejection of G-d. As G-d is the only king Israel needs.

 

[yonah_mishael]

There are no kings in the Torah, there is no monarchy in the Torah. The prophecy regarding people wanting a king and rules for such individual are in the Torah. Asking for a king is rejection of G-d. As G-d is the only king Israel needs.

Do not religious Jews pray daily for the coming of the Messiah? Is it not one of the Rambam's principles that we should believe that the Messiah is coming? Is the Messiah anything other than the king descended from David? Does Israel reject God by praying for the arrival of the Messiah?

 

[pat34lee]

Do not religious Jews pray daily for the coming of the Messiah? Is it not one of the Rambam's principles that we should believe that the Messiah is coming? Is the Messiah anything other than the king descended from David? Does Israel reject God by praying for the arrival of the Messiah?

The Messiah is much more than a king.

 

[danny ski]

Do not religious Jews pray daily for the coming of the Messiah? Is it not one of the Rambam's principles that we should believe that the Messiah is coming? Is the Messiah anything other than the king descended from David? Does Israel reject God by praying for the arrival of the Messiah?

I think it's shortsighted nostalgia born out of desperation.

 

[ContraMundum]

There are no kings in the Torah, there is no monarchy in the Torah. The prophecy regarding people wanting a king and rules for such individual are in the Torah. Asking for a king is rejection of G-d. As G-d is the only king Israel needs.

Deu 17:14, 15 "When you come to the land that the LORD your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, 'I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,' you may indeed set a king over you whom the LORD your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother."


...and yet God used Kings mightily for His purposes. Interesting how He does that.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think it's shortsighted nostalgia born out of desperation.

You don't pray for Moshiach?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

There are no kings in the Torah, there is no monarchy in the Torah. The prophecy regarding people wanting a king and rules for such individual are in the Torah. Asking for a king is rejection of G-d. As G-d is the only king Israel needs.

Excellent.

 

[danny ski]

You don't pray for Moshiach?

Only the one with checks and balances, and term limits.

 

[FredVB]

Yahweh is uniquely the king. Yahweh does not need checks and balances, in any case, being the ultimate provision for checks and balances for any appointed from God. The Messiah, who did come, was from God and there were those believing he was the one and were expecting to have him become the victorious king. And there were prophecies and promises from centuries before in the scriptures for this. When David was king it was not with all of Israel rejecting Yahweh God. Messiah is a king, and much more than a king, or even king of kings. Most certainly when Messiah is established as king, it is not going to be any rejection of God. Rather Yahweh is still king and even more so then. God's ways will be established with this. This is with God's rule indeed coming to be much more established, with more of those remaining then to submit to that.