Messiah and the Covenant

[Frogster]

Let me get this straight...
What you are saying that when God gave His Torah to His people, it was to be a standard of OUTWARD RIGHTEOUSNESS alone?

So you believe that God gave His people His Instructions, so that they can be outwardly obedient, but not necessarily inwardly obedient and spiritually changed?

It's as if you regard the HOLY LAW OF GOD as a simple document, or scroll, or slab of rock~

and not the SPIRITUAL, HOLY and LIVING WORD OF GOD!

(correct me if I'm wrong)

yeah..and peter said the law was a yoke, the fathers could not bear, way before the council meeting in Acts 15...so that was a historical experiential view, given by Peter.




Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.


James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:



Peter..

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Paul..

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.


James...don't trouble the church by putting the full Torah on them.

Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

 

[Frogster]

How presumptuous your are to assume such a foolish thing, that because this forum exist's is proof.

You who are not aware that the New Covenant has been in effect for over 2000 years are being taught by others who are IN the new covenat.

Just because you don't understand, does not mean the New Covenant is not here!!!

HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM THE APOSTLE JOHN -

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you

you do not need that anyone teach you;


IT DOESN'T GET ANY CLEARER THAN THAT!!!!

YOU DO NOT NEED THAT ANYONE TEACH YOU!!!!


CHECKMATE !


The Word of God has discovered your condition!

Repent therefore and be converted! Or you will likewise perish!


JLB

Good post, they were warned in Heb 3:7, 10:15, and 12:25, by the Spirit to be in the new cov, and not grieve grace in 10:29, by going back to torah temple old cov life.

hebrews offers more than ample evidence that the new cov here onw...some like to ignore that, and they also have to then ignore that the remission of sins came.....bad bible study here...


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.[h]

 

[Frogster]

I ask myself...
where in the world are people getting this stuff???

They probably believe that:

38. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39. "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40. "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

This has already come to pass too!

But I think one of the biggest and most ironic proofs that the New Covenant is far from complete..
is the fact that we are 'arguing about the Torah of God'....
the very same Torah that is "supposedly" already written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant.

Do they honestly believe true covenant partakers in the New Covenant would be arguing about the very Law that is written on their hearts, LET ALONE dismiss it!??

"I am part of the New Covenant but, the Law of God that is written on my heart has been abolished!"
or
"I believe the New Covenant is complete, but the Law of God that is written on our hearts, is no longer valid!"

Yet, u think all Christians are in sin, if they eat shrimp scampi. You said so..

So is God writing shrimp sampi laws on gentile hearts?


Abraham was the gosepl of blessing, the law was cursed, note the comparison here, as Paul used Abraham to ward off the law people..


Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

 

[Frogster]

The Law was NEVER given to make ANY man perfect!

Goodness me!
I guess knowing the streets of Israel and knowing the Torah of God are two COMPLETELY different things!

Then why did sin have dominion under law? Rom 6:14.

You wannt talk rom 7 with me too?

Take your pick, we can go Galatians, Rom 6, Rom 7?

I await, you can choose...

 

[Frogster]

I ask myself...
where in the world are people getting this stuff???

They probably believe that:

38. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39. "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40. "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

This has already come to pass too!

But I think one of the biggest and most ironic proofs that the New Covenant is far from complete..
is the fact that we are 'arguing about the Torah of God'....
the very same Torah that is "supposedly" already written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant.

Do they honestly believe true covenant partakers in the New Covenant would be arguing about the very Law that is written on their hearts, LET ALONE dismiss it!??

"I am part of the New Covenant but, the Law of God that is written on my heart has been abolished!"
or
"I believe the New Covenant is complete, but the Law of God that is written on our hearts, is no longer valid!"

The Spirit bore witness, TO THEM THEN..THEN..no more old cov sacrifices, which abolished the old cov, and the priesthood.


Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

[Frogster]

I ask myself...
where in the world are people getting this stuff???

They probably believe that:

38. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39. "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40. "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

This has already come to pass too!

But I think one of the biggest and most ironic proofs that the New Covenant is far from complete..
is the fact that we are 'arguing about the Torah of God'....
the very same Torah that is "supposedly" already written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant.

Do they honestly believe true covenant partakers in the New Covenant would be arguing about the very Law that is written on their hearts, LET ALONE dismiss it!??

"I am part of the New Covenant but, the Law of God that is written on my heart has been abolished!"
or
"I believe the New Covenant is complete, but the Law of God that is written on our hearts, is no longer valid!"

You gotta tell us if all the festival laws, and food laws are written on our hearts? Because all the Jewish new cov Christians in Antioch, were not living Torah...factoid!

 

[Frogster]

Gentiles were never evan given the sabbath, it was to israel...the calendar here, moons, feasts, etc, sabbath, not for gentiles, they were jewish ceremonies...


2 Chron 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the Lord my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the Lord our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation;
they do not know his rules.Praise the Lord!

 

[Frogster]

The Law commands men to go to Jerusalem to appear before Him and His Presence ... The Law commands the tithe you mentioned, not exactly to be spent in Jerusalem, but before Him and His Presence, where He decided to place His Name (Shem). His Shem dwelled between the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant (2 Sam 6:2). We neither have the Temple, nor the Ark of His Presence today, so these particular laws cannot be properly fulfilled. If the Temple, the Ark, and His Presence was in Jerusalem today, I would indeed be planning living arrangements near Jerusalem.

If her husband comes contradicting what he and his father has said before, then it is not her true husband. Everything new the husband says must agree with what came before.

And how did Yehoshua walk with His Father?

Walk? Even the jews have to walk in the steps of Abraham pre circumcision...


Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised

 

[ananda]

But I disagree with you about where it is that the Lord placed His name. He did not place His name between the cherubim of the ark. He placed His name in Jerusalem.

Then we disagree. "Then David and all Israel went to Baalah of Judah (also called Kiriath-jearim) to bring back the Ark of Elohim, which bears the name of YHWH who is enthroned between the cherubim." (1Chr 13:6). The Name of YHWH was specifically enthroned on the Ark. Yes, His Name was placed in Jerusalem in the sense that the Temple was there (1Ki 8:29, 1Ki 8:43, 2Ch 6:20, etc.), and in the Temple in the sense that the Ark was there. Jerusalem, however, was not the only place which held His Name. The Ark was carried about by the Israelites during their time in the wilderness, along with the Tabernacle, and wherever the Ark was, that was where the Name of YHWH dwelled. That was where the Israelites celebrated. Not just Jerusalem (Ex 20:24). YHWH has been known to withdraw His Name from Jerusalem as well (2Ki 23:27)

But details aside, just because the Lord does not dwell in a temple in Jeruasalem does not mean you cannot obey the commandment to go to Jerusalem, and bring your tithes and eat it in Jerusalem as commanded in Deuteronomy 14:22-29.

His Name is not present at this time in Jerusalem; there is no Temple, and the Ark is missing.

He was led by the Spirit. (Matthew 4:1, Luke 4:14) He did works by the Spirit (Matthew 12:28) He knew men's thoughts by the Spirit (Mark 2:8) He preached by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Then we disagree. "Then David and all Israel went to Baalah of Judah (also called Kiriath-jearim) to bring back the Ark of Elohim, which bears the name of YHWH who is enthroned between the cherubim." (1Chr 13:6). The Name of YHWH was specifically enthroned on the Ark. Yes, His Name was placed in Jerusalem in the sense that the Temple was there (1Ki 8:29, 1Ki 8:43, 2Ch 6:20, etc.), and in the Temple in the sense that the Ark was there. Jerusalem, however, was not the only place which held His Name. The Ark was carried about by the Israelites during their time in the wilderness, along with the Tabernacle, and wherever the Ark was, that was where the Name of YHWH dwelled. That was where the Israelites celebrated. Not just Jerusalem (Ex 20:24). YHWH has been known to withdraw His Name from Jerusalem as well (2Ki 23:27)

His Name is not present at this time in Jerusalem; there is no Temple, and the Ark is missing.

I think I understand, so please read this slowly and carefully and tell me if I have it right.

So your argument is that the commandment was not actually to appear in Jerusalem, but to appear before the Lord's presence, in the place where he put His name, which you argue was between the cherubim of the ark, where ever the ark might be.

Have I got that right?

So your judgment is, you are not required to go up to Jerusalem for the feasts, because the ark, and therefore His presence, and his name, are not there. In fact, it's not actually possible to obey the festival commandments because the ark isn't there, and therefore you can't appear in His presence.

Do I understand that correctly?

Now here's the problem. The ark, and therefore the Lord's presence, and his name, was not in Jerusalem when Jesus went up to the city to keep the feasts.

So Jesus was not obeying the Law when he went to Jerusalem to keep the feasts. Indeed, it was actually not possible for Jesus to obey the festival commandments because the ark wasn't there, therefore he couldn't appear in God's presence ... according to the way you interpret the Law.

Do you really want to defend that position?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Frogster]

Then we disagree. "Then David and all Israel went to Baalah of Judah (also called Kiriath-jearim) to bring back the Ark of Elohim, which bears the name of YHWH who is enthroned between the cherubim." (1Chr 13:6). The Name of YHWH was specifically enthroned on the Ark. Yes, His Name was placed in Jerusalem in the sense that the Temple was there (1Ki 8:29, 1Ki 8:43, 2Ch 6:20, etc.), and in the Temple in the sense that the Ark was there. Jerusalem, however, was not the only place which held His Name. The Ark was carried about by the Israelites during their time in the wilderness, along with the Tabernacle, and wherever the Ark was, that was where the Name of YHWH dwelled. That was where the Israelites celebrated. Not just Jerusalem (Ex 20:24). YHWH has been known to withdraw His Name from Jerusalem as well (2Ki 23:27)

His Name is not present at this time in Jerusalem; there is no Temple, and the Ark is missing.

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

How elemental to freeze a segment of history, of course he did, but then took the whole law judged sinful creation to the cross, then we are freed from it.....


Just read gal 4;2, UNTIL..the date set by the father. WHEN THE FULLNESS OF TIME CAME...all chronolgical terms here that show it was temporary.


Read Gal 3;19, UNTIL....UNTIL ..the seed....

No more tutor.....

 

[Frogster]

Then we disagree. "Then David and all Israel went to Baalah of Judah (also called Kiriath-jearim) to bring back the Ark of Elohim, which bears the name of YHWH who is enthroned between the cherubim." (1Chr 13:6). The Name of YHWH was specifically enthroned on the Ark. Yes, His Name was placed in Jerusalem in the sense that the Temple was there (1Ki 8:29, 1Ki 8:43, 2Ch 6:20, etc.), and in the Temple in the sense that the Ark was there. Jerusalem, however, was not the only place which held His Name. The Ark was carried about by the Israelites during their time in the wilderness, along with the Tabernacle, and wherever the Ark was, that was where the Name of YHWH dwelled. That was where the Israelites celebrated. Not just Jerusalem (Ex 20:24). YHWH has been known to withdraw His Name from Jerusalem as well (2Ki 23:27)

His Name is not present at this time in Jerusalem; there is no Temple, and the Ark is missing.

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.



UNTIL.....

 

[Frogster]

Then we disagree. "Then David and all Israel went to Baalah of Judah (also called Kiriath-jearim) to bring back the Ark of Elohim, which bears the name of YHWH who is enthroned between the cherubim." (1Chr 13:6). The Name of YHWH was specifically enthroned on the Ark. Yes, His Name was placed in Jerusalem in the sense that the Temple was there (1Ki 8:29, 1Ki 8:43, 2Ch 6:20, etc.), and in the Temple in the sense that the Ark was there. Jerusalem, however, was not the only place which held His Name. The Ark was carried about by the Israelites during their time in the wilderness, along with the Tabernacle, and wherever the Ark was, that was where the Name of YHWH dwelled. That was where the Israelites celebrated. Not just Jerusalem (Ex 20:24). YHWH has been known to withdraw His Name from Jerusalem as well (2Ki 23:27)

His Name is not present at this time in Jerusalem; there is no Temple, and the Ark is missing.

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

If the Jews are not true sons of Abraham by law, then why would Gentiles be? Teaching about Abraham by the Spirit, through Paul, totally strikes down the MJ doctrine. No offense, just a fact.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

 

[Frogster]

jer 3:16 And when you have multiplied and been fruitful in the land, in those days, declares the Lord, they shall no more say, “The ark of the covenant of the Lord.” It shall not come to mind or be remembered or missed; it shall not be made again.

 

[Frogster]

Total waste of time, when the gentiles got under the jewish calendar...


Galatians 4:10-11 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

 

[ananda]

Now here's the problem. The ark, and therefore the Lord's presence, and his name, was not in Jerusalem when Jesus went up to the city to keep the feasts. So Jesus was not obeying the Law when he went to Jerusalem to keep the feasts. Indeed, it was actually not possible for Jesus to obey the festival commandments because the ark wasn't there, therefore he couldn't appear in God's presence ... according to the way you interpret the Law. Do you really want to defend that position?

I am of the position that the Ark was in Jerusalem during Messiah's time, hidden in a secret cave under the bedrock of the Holy of Holies during the time of the Second Temple, to keep it safe from foreign control during the occupation of Jerusalem and Israel. After the destruction of the Second Temple, YHWH took it to Heaven (Rev 11:19) .

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

 

[Frogster]

I am of the position that the Ark was in Jerusalem during Messiah's time, hidden in a secret cave under the bedrock of the Holy of Holies during the time of the Second Temple, to keep it safe from foreign control during the occupation of Jerusalem and Israel. After the destruction of the Second Temple, YHWH took it to Heaven (Rev 11:19) .

Do you believe Messiah followed Torah perfectly?

do you believe the Jewish Christians in the Antioch church, followed Torah perfectly?

they did not, want proof?

 

[Pilgrimer]

I am of the position that the Ark was in Jerusalem during Messiah's time, hidden in a secret cave under the bedrock of the Holy of Holies during the time of the Second Temple, to keep it safe from foreign control during the occupation of Jerusalem and Israel.

So you're basing your obedience to the Law on the very traditions that Jesus said made void the Law? This tradition did after all come from R. Yehudah who said in the Talmud that the ark was buried beneath the wood chamber. So you don't have to go to Jerusalem to keep the feasts based on this tradition?

After the destruction of the Second Temple, YHWH took it to Heaven (Rev 11:19) .

I disagree Netzarim. The ark of the Old Covenant rested in the Old Covenant Temple on earth. It's the ark of the New Covenant that rests in the New Covenant Temple in heaven. And the New Covenant ark which God raised up to heaven is Jesus.

You genuinely don't see Jesus in any of these Old Testament types, do you? Which means I suppose you don't view the Old Testament as foreshadowing the Gospel?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. Yes, I believe Jesus obeyed every commandment of the Law. So I think it is a bit presumptuous to argue that obedience to some of the commandments constitutes "following Jesus."

 

[Frogster]

So you're basing your obedience to the Law on the very traditions that Jesus said made void the Law? This tradition did after all come from R. Yehudah who said in the Talmud that the ark was buried beneath the wood chamber. So you don't have to go to Jerusalem to keep the feasts based on this tradition?



I disagree Netzarim. The ark of the Old Covenant rested in the Old Covenant Temple on earth. It's the ark of the New Covenant that rests in the New Covenant Temple in heaven. And the New Covenant ark which God raised up to heaven is Jesus.

You genuinely don't see Jesus in any of these Old Testament types, do you? Which means I suppose you don't view the Old Testament as foreshadowing the Gospel?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. Yes, I believe Jesus obeyed every commandment of the Law. So I think it is a bit presumptuous to argue that obedience to some of the commandments constitutes "following Jesus."[/SIZE]

true, like Christians are mandated to do circumcision on the 8th day, and to bring a passover lamb to a temple that is not there.

 

[ananda]

So you're basing your obedience to the Law on the very traditions that Jesus said made void the Law? This tradition did after all come from R. Yehudah who said in the Talmud that the ark was buried beneath the wood chamber. So you don't have to go to Jerusalem to keep the feasts based on this tradition?

Your claim that the ark was not present during Messiah's time is also based on tradition. There is no way to know for certain either way. What I do know is that Temple services were held during Messiah's time, and the Ark is necessary to properly fulfill all the ritual functions of the moedim. Thus, I conclude and believe that the Ark was present then. You're free to believe otherwise.

Yes, I believe Jesus obeyed every commandment of the Law. So I think it is a bit presumptuous to argue that obedience to some of the commandments constitutes "following Jesus."

Yes, I follow some of the commandments, all the ones I can do today as I understand them, to the best of my ability. Which ones do you follow? Or, perhaps, since you believe that the Law is done away with and fulfilled in Messiah, is it sinful to follow any part of the Law?