Messiah and the Covenant

[ananda]

If they are one, if they are the same, without the "and," but with the "is," then we are in agreement!

So, how do you express 1) love for Elohim, and 2) love for your neighbor?

 

[ananda]

Those two verses are 17 verses apart, and where vv.15-22 are a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Messiah is not referring to the end of the world here, he is referring to observance of the Sabbath at the end of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

... if this is so, why would you arbitrarily end the reference at verse 22?

The Word of God states that the Sabbath was a shadow of the reality we now have in Christ (Col 2:16-17), where we rest from all works to earn favor with God.

If Sabbath ended at the cross, then Joseph of Arimathaea and the Galilean women must have sinned when they observed the Sabbath day after the death of Messiah on the cross: "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." Lk 23:56, Mk 16:1.

So must have the early believers in Asia Minor also sinned, when they observed Sabbath: "the Sabbath or Saturday (for so the word sabbatum is constantly used in the writings of the fathers, when speaking of it as it relates to Christians) was held by them in great veneration, and especially in the Eastern parts [Asia Minor] honoured with all the public solemnities of religion. For which we are to know, that the gospel in those parts mainly prevailing amongst the Jews, they being generally the first converts to the Christian faith, they still retained a mighty reverence for the Mosaic institutions, and especially for the sabbath, as that which had been appointed by God himself, (as the memorial of his rest from the week of creation,) settled by their great master Moses, and celebrated by their ancestors for so many ages, as the solemn day of their public worship, and were therefore very loth that it should be wholly antiquated and laid aside. For this reason it seemed good to the prudence of those times, (as in others of the Jewish rites, so in this,) to indulge the humour of that people, and to keep the sabbath as a day for religious offices. Hence they usually had most parts of the divine service performed upon that day; they met together for public prayers, for reading the scriptures, celebration of the sacraments, and such like duties. This is plain, not only from some passages in Ignatius and Clemens's Constitutions, but from writers of more unquestionable credit and authority. Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, tells us, that they assembled on Saturdays, not that they were infected with Judaism, but only to worship Jesus Christ, the Lord of the sabbath" (William Cave, Primitive Christianity)

The Apostle John was the elder overseeing the Asia Minor churches at the time. John's prominent disciple, Polycarp, observed Sabbath, and protested Rome's substitution of Sunday for Sabbath.

 

[tzadik]

Your scripture concerning the Sabbath is invalid!

The Sabbath is a shadow, the reality is Christ, who is our rest!

The New Covenant in His blood is for all the nations of the earth.

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

When the new Temple is built, will you participate in the sacrifice of animals?

The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem


JLB

Sobering what the world is coming too eh?

God says “REMEMBER the Sabbath”.
‘Christianity today’ says “FORGET the Sabbath”

God says “Keep my Sabbath day Holy” (keyword MY Sabbath)
‘Christianity today’ says “You no longer have to keep the Sabbath day holy”

God says “The Sabbath Instruction shall be a sign between Me and My people FOREVER”
‘Christianity today’ says “the Sabbath day is a waste of time!”

God says “Call my Sabbath day a Delight!”
‘Christianity today’ says “The Sabbath day is a HAS BEEN”

God in the flesh says “I am the LORD of the Sabbath”
‘Christianity today’ says “Christ is no longer the lord of the Sabbath, because he fulfilled it and it no longer exists”

God in the flesh says “it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath”
‘Christianity today’ says “that verse only applies THEN and THERE to the Jews” (before His death)

God in the flesh says REGARDING the end times “pray that your flight does not happen on the Sabbath”.
‘Christianity today’ fights tooth and nails to dismiss and explain away the above verse to refer solely to 70 A.D.

Hebrews 4:9 tells me that there remains a Sabbath day for the people of God. This is what I believe.
Regardless how ‘Christianity today’ again will try to explain that one away.

The Sabbath day IS, as in REMAINS God’s Holy day for His Holy People. I, am part of His Holy People.

 

[tzadik]

If they are one, if they are the same, without the "and," but with the "is," then we are in agreement!

If the Law of Messiah IS the Law of the Father...

Can they disagree?

Can one commandment from one, cancel a commandment in the other?

Wouldn't every commandment in the Father's Law be applicable in Messiah's?

Can we live in obedience to the Law of Messiah and at the same time live in disobedience to the Father's Law?

 

[JLB777]

If the Law of Messiah IS the Law of the Father...

Can they disagree?

Can one commandment from one, cancel a commandment in the other?

Wouldn't every commandment in the Father's Law be applicable in Messiah's?

Can we live in obedience to the Law of Messiah and at the same time live in disobedience to the Father's Law?

Jesus Christ came to fulfill what the Law and the Prophets spoke of concerning Him.

The prophecies in the Psalms as well as The Prophets that concerned Him as well as the types and shadows of which the sacrifices that typified what His ultimate sacrifice would achieve for us.

Furthermore what He taught as He walked this earth "fulfilled" that is to say brought a fulness to our "understanding" of the meaning the Law.

Most of the learned scholars of His day had truly missed the meaning of The Law as God intended.

In other words if a glass of water is half full and I "fill it full" then I am fulfilling it, I am bring it to a full measure.

So it is with Jesus as He taught a fuller perspective of The Law as intended by God.

You see this in the phrase - you have heard it said, but I say to you.

If you even look at a woman ... then your guilty.

We are held to a higher standard than the Law of Moses, because ...

To whom much is given much is expected. We have been given the Eternal Spirit to keep us, that is to say our inner man.

For we are crucified with Christ.

For he who has died has been freed from sin.


Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.


However, if The Holy Spirit is not enough and you feel you need to eat special foods or observe special days, because you are weak in your faith, then by all means to so, I have been instructed not to judge.

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

JLB

 

[tzadik]

The problem with similar threads is that you end up rebutting the same argument twice each time.

Jesus Christ came to fulfill what the Law and the Prophets spoke of concerning Him.

Now the question is, DID He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning Him?
Or did He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning His FIRST COMING?
Do you believe Messiah’s coming back for unfinished business? Do you believe that ANY part of His Second Coming is prophesied in the Law and the Prophets?


Simple formula.
Messiah DEFINITELY brought to fruition EVERYTHING that was meant to be accomplished in His FIRST coming.
He DEFINITELY did NOT bring to fruition the things that ARE meant to be accomplished at His SECOND coming.
Therefore Messiah DID NOT accomplish EVERYTHING that was written and prophesied in the Law and the Prophets. Simple formula.
Unless you somehow believe that Messiah has come and already accomplished EVERYTHING there is to accomplish.

Acts 3:18-21 tells it better than I ever could…
18. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. [EVERYTHING REGARDING HIS FIRST COMING!]
19. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, [FUTURE TENSE]
21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. [MAYBE AFTER THIS POINT YOU MAY SAY ‘HE IS ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING] but DEFINITELY not yet.

Ever heard the term. Suffering servant / Conquering King? Messiah ben Joseph / Messiah ben David?
There’s a part TWO acoming THANK GOD!

The prophecies in the Psalms as well as The Prophets that concerned Him as well as the types and shadows of which the sacrifices that typified what His ultimate sacrifice would achieve for us.

Furthermore what He taught as He walked this earth "fulfilled" that is to say brought a fulness to our "understanding" of the meaning the Law.

Most of the learned scholars of His day had truly missed the meaning of The Law as God intended.

In other words if a glass of water is half full and I "fill it full" then I am fulfilling it, I am bring it to a full measure.

So it is with Jesus as He taught a fuller perspective of The Law as intended by God.

But what you fail to grasp in all of this is that its’ the SAME LAW.
IT is the SAME Law of God that Messiah is using.
IT is the SAME Law of God that Moses used.
Messiah is teaching the Law of God better than ANYONE has, did, or ever WILL teach.
He was the PERFECT TORAH TEACHER.

You stress so much on “you’ve heard, but I say”, that you miss the BOOK that Messiah is teaching out of.

Messiah is teaching the VERY TORAH of God! Correctly!
In Messiah’s time there were all kinds of “Rabbis” and teachers of the law, teaching their version of the Torah. People adding to the Law of God, making fences around the Word of God, most with the best intentions. Others like the Pharisees were using the Law of God for their own gain.

Messiah came to correctly teach the LAW OF GOD.

He didn’t come to correctly teach HIS OWN LAW. (That would be BLASPHEMY!)

Messiah came to correctly teach the LAW OF GOD!

 

[JLB777]

The problem with similar threads is that you end up rebutting the same argument twice each time.


Now the question is, DID He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning Him?
Or did He fulfill EVERYTHING the Law and the Prophets spoke concerning His FIRST COMING?
Do you believe Messiah’s coming back for unfinished business? Do you believe that ANY part of His Second Coming is prophesied in the Law and the Prophets?


Simple formula.
Messiah DEFINITELY brought to fruition EVERYTHING that was meant to be accomplished in His FIRST coming.
He DEFINITELY did NOT bring to fruition the things that ARE meant to be accomplished at His SECOND coming.
Therefore Messiah DID NOT accomplish EVERYTHING that was written and prophesied in the Law and the Prophets. Simple formula.
Unless you somehow believe that Messiah has come and already accomplished EVERYTHING there is to accomplish.

Acts 3:18-21 tells it better than I ever could…
18. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. [EVERYTHING REGARDING HIS FIRST COMING!]
19. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, [FUTURE TENSE]
21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. [MAYBE AFTER THIS POINT YOU MAY SAY ‘HE IS ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING] but DEFINITELY not yet.

Ever heard the term. Suffering servant / Conquering King? Messiah ben Joseph / Messiah ben David?
There’s a part TWO acoming THANK GOD!


But what you fail to grasp in all of this is that its’ the SAME LAW.
IT is the SAME Law of God that Messiah is using.
IT is the SAME Law of God that Moses used.
Messiah is teaching the Law of God better than ANYONE has, did, or ever WILL teach.
He was the PERFECT TORAH TEACHER.

You stress so much on “you’ve heard, but I say”, that you miss the BOOK that Messiah is teaching out of.

Messiah is teaching the VERY TORAH of God! Correctly!
In Messiah’s time there were all kinds of “Rabbis” and teachers of the law, teaching their version of the Torah. People adding to the Law of God, making fences around the Word of God, most with the best intentions. Others like the Pharisees were using the Law of God for their own gain.

Messiah came to correctly teach the LAW OF GOD.

He didn’t come to correctly teach HIS OWN LAW. (That would be BLASPHEMY!)

Messiah came to correctly teach the LAW OF GOD!

Which you are dead to, if you are in Christ!

... you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

 

[tzadik]

Which you are dead to, if you are in Christ!

... you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

How can a law that Paul's been dead to still alert him when he sins?
--

12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Doesn't Paul know that he is supposed to be dead to this Holy, Righteous and Good Law?
--

13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Seems like Paul actually gets the relationship of the Law of God to both the wicked and the righteous...
--

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Paul also seems to know that the Law of God is Spiritual. Those who are in the flesh will ALWAYS have a problem with the Law. (see Romans 8:5-9
--

16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Why in the world would Paul agree with a law that he was supposedly dead to, let alone confess that it's good?
--

22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Why oh WHY is Paul JOYFULLY concurring with the Law of God that he's supposedly dead to?
--

25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul actually SERVING the Law of God that he's supposedly dead to???
--

Something's DEFINITELY not right...

 

[ananda]

From my perspective, you're both correct ... Paul was both speaking for and against the Torah ... this was exactly the characteristic of a Balaam (Rev 2:14). The Tanach records Balaam as both a true and a false prophet.

 

[JLB777]

7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

How can a law that Paul's been dead to still alert him when he sins?
--

12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Doesn't Paul know that he is supposed to be dead to this Holy, Righteous and Good Law?
--

13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Seems like Paul actually gets the relationship of the Law of God to both the wicked and the righteous...
--

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Paul also seems to know that the Law of God is Spiritual. Those who are in the flesh will ALWAYS have a problem with the Law. (see Romans 8:5-9
--

16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

Why in the world would Paul agree with a law that he was supposedly dead to, let alone confess that it's good?
--

22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Why oh WHY is Paul JOYFULLY concurring with the Law of God that he's supposedly dead to?
--

25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul actually SERVING the Law of God that he's supposedly dead to???
--

Something's DEFINITELY not right...

The inner man!

Not the fleshly ordinances!

 

[visionary]

The inner man!

Not the fleshly ordinances!

Hopefully you have the inner man keeping the flesh in obedience to His Will.

 

[JLB777]

Only if I keep it built up by praying in the Holy Spirit!

 

[visionary]

Only if I keep it built up by praying in the Holy Spirit!

You make it sound like something you can do.. rather than waiting up Him who pours it out upon us.

 

[JLB777]

You make it sound like something you can do.. rather than waiting up Him who pours it out upon us.

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20,21

If you don't do your part you will be waiting a long time.


Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only!


JLB

 

[visionary]

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20,21

If you don't do your part you will be waiting a long time.


Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only!


JLB

But you said "if only I could keep it up".. It is one thing to be very studious on the faith, and praying in the spirit, keeping yourselves in the love of God and quite another to state "if only I" ... like it is a hit or miss deal on your part...

 

[JLB777]

Only if I keep it built up by praying in the Holy Spirit!

Only if I keep it built up by praying in the Holy Spirit!

That is my direct quote.

There are things we must do to keep our new nature in a posture of dominion over the desires of the flesh!

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


The Lord has given me His Spirit, His Word and The Name of Jesus, it is up to me to utilize the gifts [praying in tongues], fellowshipping with Him and worshiping Him, feeding upon His word, exercising the authority He has given me over the powers of darkness ... If I don't walk in the things He has done for me, then I have no excuse.

His grace is sufficient for me!

Those things I mentioned are aspects of His grace!


JLB

 

[visionary]

If it wasn't for His instructions from Mount Sinai we all wouldn't have a clue what Holy living is all about... With those instructions, the Holy Spirit is able to teach us more than what the words say, but the depth of what it entails.

 

[JLB777]

If it wasn't for His instructions from Mount Sinai we all wouldn't have a clue what Holy living is all about... With those instructions, the Holy Spirit is able to teach us more than what the words say, but the depth of what it entails.

You are absolutely dead wrong!


for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, Romans 2:14


who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law,


You couldn't be anymore wrong. Totally wrong!


JLB

 

[JLB777]

If it wasn't for His instructions from Mount Sinai we all wouldn't have a clue what Holy living is all about... With those instructions, the Holy Spirit is able to teach us more than what the words say, but the depth of what it entails.

Most of the Gentile believers couldn't read, much less read Hebrew!

 

[visionary]

You are absolutely dead wrong!


for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, Romans 2:14


who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law,


You couldn't be anymore wrong. Totally wrong!


JLB

By nature do the things IN THE LAW