Messages from souls in purgatory

[~Anastasia~]

Everyone please be aware in what forum you are posting. Please read the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology if you have not already. If you don't understand or aren't sure, feel free to ask questions.

Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

Orthodoxy does not agree with Catholicism on purgatory either - but this forum is not for debate or for arguing over what doctrines are correct.

Thank you.

 

[eleos1954]

Not everything is in the Bible

"Not everything is in the Bible" true

but everything God wants us to know IS in the bible.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Hebrews 4:12-14

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Matthew 4:4

But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

 

[Athanasias]

My friend,
Jesus work on the cross was perfect. Nothing can be added to it.
Hebrews 10 explains it was a once for all time sacrifice...perfect, complete in every way.

Thank you. Catholics do agree with this. But let me ask you this. Why do you think purgatory means or is? Why do you think this passage nullifies it? You see I think its because of this passage that we have a purgatory. Maybe we can talk?

 

[Athanasias]

Jesus is God. Jesus became incarnate to accomplish redemption Heb.9:12.
It was a one time act accepted by the Father.
It sanctified forever His sheep.Hebrews 10:10-14.

Satan could not stop Jesus. Now he attempts to have people add works to the grace of God, which is another gospel, another Jesus...
2 cor11:3-4
Take your time. Pray. Let the word of God inform you by the Spirit.

Let me ask you does sanctification(by the power of Christ cross and resurrection) happen to a soul after death?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Great saints and mystics like St. Padre Pio had seen purgatorial souls and they asked him to offer mass and pray for them as they were suffering/being purified. Our Lady showed the children at Fatima heaven, hell and purgatory. We have a history of evidence for messages of souls in purgatory: Obviously as a Catholic I believe these things. Take a look. what do you think?

Thank you, Athanasius. This is an under-discussed and under-understood topic. Thank you.

 

[Athanasias]

It isn’t just the video. That’s what I’m getting at. When you say Judaism agrees with Catholicism’s perspective on purgatory. You can’t dissociate what that means because your example is part of your theology. It isn’t your opinion. It references subjects the church approves.

That is the conclusion we’ve reached. Theoretically you know this. Your interpretation has led you elsewhere and the results would not be seen favorably in Judaism.



Catholicism drew upon the idea of purgatory from Judaism. That is true. But the interpretation of what it means does not agree.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed. They were influenced by Christianity. In that we agree. But our understanding of who he was is not the same. Our conclusions are world’s apart.

If you built an argument on that notion you’ll run into trouble. The agreement has birthed different conclusions. If the audience is Muslim, you’d mention it to sway them. If its Christian, you needn’t do so. They’re already convinced.

Your are welcome to your opinion. I am not a convert. I’m speaking from a Jewish perspective completely.

Thank you very much for your post and explanation. I guess we politely dissagree. I think the two religions share the same concept of purification after death by fire which is the essence of the Catholic doctrine according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catechism quotes the same verse of scripture and uses the same term(purgatory) to describe this purifying fire. The Article in the Jewish encyclopedia quotes the rabbis saying the same concept of purification by fire after death and calling it purgatory for those "betwixed and between" who have died but not altogether evil.

This is the exact essence and concept of purgatory for a Catholic and that is why we pray for the dead just as the Jews did and Judas Maccabees did to sanctify the souls of the departed . The Jewish encyclopedia itself admits this connections and relates the sacrifice of the mass and prayers for the dead to this passages in 2 Macc. Jewish converts and well known Jewish Catholics like Dr Lawrence Feingold, David Moss etc also see this connection and that the essence of the doctrine are the same.

Has there been development in Catholicism? Yes of course there has been but the essence is the same. I do not think it hard to see that nor do the authors of the Jewish encyclopedia. Do you see what I am saying? Maybe you can tell me why do dissagree with all this?

 

[Athanasias]

First, of course, we do have messages from our Apostles, in the New Testament. So, are these getting the most attention, then? Or are people getting into other things from claimed Purgatory people or whatever. Are voices "back from the dead" getting more attention than God's word???? How well do you know God's word, compared to how well you know other things?

For just one example, do you know Jesus prayed for us to be loved by our Father the way our Father loves Jesus? John 17:22-26

Has this gotten your attention? Or are other things keeping your attention elsewhere?How about the New Testament? Do the Apostles in their New Testament writings give this tradition in clear terms?

I notice how Hebrews 12:4-14 says God corrects His children, and the result of God's correction is that we share with Him in His own holiness in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". Does this get at least as much attention as Purgatory, in Catholic tradition?

If not, then Purgatory could be a very dangerous thing of procrastination so people do not personally seek how our Father is now able to correct us . . . so better than we can try. If what we are doing does not work, this is because what we get ourselves to do does not work. God's grace is almighty to succeed in us . . . now . . . no procrastinating.
Are you talking about Jews who do not honor and obey their Messiah Jesus? If you are talking about Jews still in darkness, I would not trust what they are capable of thinking, if they think Jesus is not their Messiah. They are not a source, I would think, of authority for what is Christian belief, if they don't even believe a basic.

So, is God's word getting your attention, most of all? Canon Scripture has so much of what Apostles themselves have given to us. And God's grace does all He means by what He says. He in us does what His word means >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, this is a basic of Christianity, how God personally shares with us, having us will and do what He really wants. He is not distant from any of His children.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, this is a basic of our calling > "in one body" > how our Heavenly Father pleases to personally rule each of us, in our "hearts" < very personally, indeed > so we are sharing in His own peace which is His own harmony of Him in His love. In God's peace we have His almighty safety against various cruel things of fear and worry and hate and unforgiveness and dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure which can not love us like God does. And in the ruling of our Creator's peace, He is sharing His creativity with us, for how to love each and every person.

So, how much are your tradition and homilies bringing attention to this which is right in your Canon Scripture?

Thank you for your post. I see you did not bother to interact with any of the verses from the New Testament I brought up. I will quote them again.
Catholics see it implied in Matt 5:22-26, Matt 18 24-35, 1 Cor 3:10-15, and 2 Tim 1:18.

As for Hebrews 12 that is exactly the point of purgatory. Its a temporal punishment /chastisement so we can share in his holiness. I think you misunderstand what purgatory even is. What do you think the doctrine of purgatory is??

 

[com7fy8]

I'll see what I can do with the scriptures you have offered >

Matt 5:22-26

I see you might think this means someone can go to purgatory after one dies, in order for the person to be processed about wrongs the person has not taken care of while in this life.

I understand that Hebrews 12:4-14 means we get such correction in this life, so things do not have to go on to after we die. Because God is able to get things done now in this life. This is about how God is able to change us so we succeed in living the way He wants in this life.

Matt 18 24-35

Possibly, you might apply this to mean that an unforgiving person can be processed in Purgatory if he or she has not forgiven people in this life.

Again > God is able to correct us now and change us to be like Jesus in this life. 1 John 4:17 says >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

God's love in us > Romans 5:5 > changes us now.

Now I understand ones might say oh but isn't it merciful that if a person does to forgive someone and then the unforgiving person dies, isn't it merciful for the person to have a second chance by being purified in Purgatory? God can change the person now. And when the person dies will not be by chance. He can manage things so a person trusting Him gets real correction and is perfected in His love, "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment" (in 1 John 4:17).

1 Cor 3:10-15

I see this means there will be a time of judgment of our works. And fire will test our works. And even if our works burn, if we are God's children, we will be saved "through fire", our Apostle Paul does say.

Hebrews 12:29 says >

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

So, what do you understand is the effective and discerning "fire" who will test our works, then?

We do have God to do this now. And Hebrews 12:4-14 shares how God is guaranteed to succeed in us, to correct us. And 1 John 4:17 says, "as He is, so are we in this world." So, certainly God is able to succeed in this life.

So, I see how you could understand that the day of judging of our works can lead to Purgatory, for ones whose works have not been God's way. And you would say the fire of Purgatory will save us but burn our unsound works.

But I consider how God is able, now. So, I consider that God our "fire" can have His "day" with every one of our works when and as He pleases and He the "fire" then takes us on to do better. The "day" can mean, if this interpretation is correct, the time of God's light during the day of salvation which is now.

2 Tim 1:18

"that Day" is in this scripture; "the" day is in Corinthians.

As for Hebrews 12 that is exactly the point of purgatory. Its a temporal punishment /chastisement so we can share in his holiness.

I do not believe that God's correction is only or mainly punishment and chastising. But He corrects our character so we are like Jesus. Punishing and paining us can not change us to be submissive and sweetly pleasing like Jesus. Pain and chastising alone can not change us to become wise and submissive to God and seeking Him to change us to be like Jesus and to love any and all people.

I think you misunderstand what purgatory even is. What do you think the doctrine of purgatory is??

What I remember being told, and what I have picked up from reading ones who identify as Catholic is that Purgatory is a place for people who died with unconfessed venial sins. It seems ones have said they need a certain amount of pain infliction as punishment for the sins and in order to purify them. But because they did not die in mortal sin, they can go to Heaven. So, they stay in Purgatory while they are dealt with about their unconfessed venial sins, and purified.

But God's love does not just purify us in the sense of only stopping certain wrong activities. God's love changes our nature so we are like Jesus. Paining our ego does not change us to be like Jesus. But our real nature reacts to fire according to what our real nature is.

Again, I see too much procrastination in getting purified and punished after we die. Also, it appears this makes a person's salvation too dependent on the person oneself. But the Bible says to submit to God (James 4:7, Colossians 3:15) and seek Him now for real correction in this life so now we share with Him in His holiness (Hebrews 12:4-14). Jesus says, in order to follow Him, we deny ourselves > Luke 9:23. We stop depending on our own selves and we depend on how God is able to correct us and personally guide us.

 

[Athanasias]

I'll see what I can do with the scriptures you have offered >I see you might think this means someone can go to purgatory after one dies, in order for the person to be processed about wrongs the person has not taken care of while in this life.

I understand that Hebrews 12:4-14 means we get such correction in this life, so things do not have to go on to after we die. Because God is able to get things done now in this life. This is about how God is able to change us so we succeed in living the way He wants in this life.

Possibly, you might apply this to mean that an unforgiving person can be processed in Purgatory if he or she has not forgiven people in this life.

Again > God is able to correct us now and change us to be like Jesus in this life. 1 John 4:17 says >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

God's love in us > Romans 5:5 > changes us now.

Now I understand ones might say oh but isn't it merciful that if a person does to forgive someone and then the unforgiving person dies, isn't it merciful for the person to have a second chance by being purified in Purgatory? God can change the person now. And when the person dies will not be by chance. He can manage things so a person trusting Him gets real correction and is perfected in His love, "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment" (in 1 John 4:17).

I see this means there will be a time of judgment of our works. And fire will test our works. And even if our works burn, if we are God's children, we will be saved "through fire", our Apostle Paul does say.

Hebrews 12:29 says >

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

So, what do you understand is the effective and discerning "fire" who will test our works, then?

We do have God to do this now. And Hebrews 12:4-14 shares how God is guaranteed to succeed in us, to correct us. And 1 John 4:17 says, "as He is, so are we in this world." So, certainly God is able to succeed in this life.

So, I see how you could understand that the day of judging of our works can lead to Purgatory, for ones whose works have not been God's way. And you would say the fire of Purgatory will save us but burn our unsound works.

But I consider how God is able, now. So, I consider that God our "fire" can have His "day" with every one of our works when and as He pleases and He the "fire" then takes us on to do better. The "day" can mean, if this interpretation is correct, the time of God's light during the day of salvation which is now.

"that Day" is in this scripture; "the" day is in Corinthians.

I do not believe that God's correction is only or mainly punishment and chastising. But He corrects our character so we are like Jesus. Punishing and paining us can not change us to be submissive and sweetly pleasing like Jesus. Pain and chastising alone can not change us to become wise and submissive to God and seeking Him to change us to be like Jesus and to love any and all people.

What I remember being told, and what I have picked up from reading ones who identify as Catholic is that Purgatory is a place for people who died with unconfessed venial sins. It seems ones have said they need a certain amount of pain infliction as punishment for the sins and in order to purify them. But because they did not die in mortal sin, they can go to Heaven. So, they stay in Purgatory while they are dealt with about their unconfessed venial sins, and purified.

But God's love does not just purify us in the sense of only stopping certain wrong activities. God's love changes our nature so we are like Jesus. Paining our ego does not change us to be like Jesus. But our real nature reacts to fire according to what our real nature is.

Again, I see too much procrastination in getting purified and punished after we die. Also, it appears this makes a person's salvation too dependent on the person oneself. But the Bible says to submit to God (James 4:7, Colossians 3:15) and seek Him now for real correction in this life so now we share with Him in His holiness (Hebrews 12:4-14). Jesus says, in order to follow Him, we deny ourselves > Luke 9:23. We stop depending on our own selves and we depend on how God is able to correct us and personally guide us.

This is a good conversation. Thank you for this. I am enjoying this dialog and hope you are too. I will try to explain How the Catholic Church and some of the early fathers understand this. By the way the understanding of purgatory is not something we do but rather something Christ does for us. Purification is another way of saying sanctification and your right it involves much more then just stop our activities it acutely changes the state of our soul to conform to Christ most fully. It fully sanctifies us. its actually Christ and the Holy Spirit who is the fire that purifies us. We do nothing at all but receive it. Here is the official teaching from the Catholic Church from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

"1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire(1 Cor 3:15)
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture"

So that is the official teaching

I can logical explain it like this. There can be no sin or anything unclean can enter into heaven (Rev 21:27) abut most of us are not perfect when we die and many of us are still sinning by the time we die. We may have left over selfishness and sinful desires and worldly attachments to our souls that cannot enter into heaven and God needs to fully sanctify .Logically then God must purify our souls and give us the sanctification we need to enter in heaven and see him face to face.. Purgatory is Christ applying sanctification by virtue of the cross to us. The Cross was redemption accomplished. Purgatorial sanctification is redemption applied personally to us.



I will see if I can at least explain to you the catholic view of these passages and how the early Church like Lanctanius or St. Augustine saw this.

I know you may not agree but it may be helpful just to give you an idea of how we see it.

The context of Matt 5 deals with two things one how we should act and two how we are judged eternally. So eternal judgment is in the immediate context. Beginning with the beatitudes Jesus , the new Moses, gives us the new law of love and how we are to act. He directly relates this action to our judgment in heaven. For Great will be your reward in heaven for persecution(Matt 5:10-11). Again keeping with the context when Jesus speaks about things like Lust he warns not to it for it is a mortal sin and can send you to the judgment of hell(Matt 5:30). Indeed He tell us that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees or we will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20) so clearly he is talking in this chapter about judgement and actions and how they can lead to types of judgement.He also taught that if we are persecuted and are faithful we will see heaven but now in these verses Jesus throws you for a loop. He mentions neither or heaven nor hell in context of judgment but warns that if we do not make friends with our accuser we will be thrown into first a place of temporary suffering ( a prison he calls it) where we will never get out until we have paid the last penny. Now ask yourself this. Is heaven a prison?? No! Is hell a place you can ever get out?? No! Then there must be intermediate state in the context of judgement where one does suffer a penalty and get out of by paying the last penny(being reformed) right? This is the concept of purgatory. Jesus will again take up the same issue of being put into a temporary prison in Matt 18:34-35.

For 1 Cor 3:10-15 St. Augustine saw that St. Paul speaks about this purifying fire that will purge the individual bad works(wood hay and stubble ie venial sins or lesser sins) away from the person and refine them. In this verse St. Paul, alludes to the Jewish concept of Gods fiery purification which was already found in the old testament in Malachi 3 and Isaiah 4 and 6 and Zech 13:9 as the rabbis talked about and applies it to the Christian theology of the afterlife and sanctification. Notice that when the individual is judged by God he will be saved! Purgatory is only for saved Christians and not the eternally damned. But those in purgatory will suffer loss and it will hurt as Paul says (As is common in most biblical sanctification). They suffer the loss of their selfish sinful ways so as to be purified and enter the glories of heaven.

St. Paul also prays for the dead in the new testament (2 Tim 1:16-18) when he prays for Onesiphhorus. Paul here utilizes a ancient Jewish custom of praying for the dead also known as the mourners kaddish. Here Paul applies that to Christian theology and practice thus alluding to purgatory. After all if the dead are in heaven then no prayer is needed and if the dead are in hell then no prayer can help them!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Mystics? Communion with the dead? Children in hell?

Dude. None of this is Christian. At all.

The matters to which you object have considerable support in Sacred Tradition.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Obviously as a Catholic I believe these things. Take a look. what do you think?

I haven't made up my mind as to whether or not to believe purgatory exists...

...but for you, as a practicing Catholic, how do you pray when you are not sure a deceased person is saved or not?

Because if she is not saved, it's a waste of time, right (since purgatory is for the already-saved)?

If you are not sure, do you pray, "Father, if she is in purgatory..."?

Since I am not sure whether the person I lost was saved, nor whether to believe in purgatory, I'm thinking about praying:

"Lord, if purgatory exists, and if she is there, help her"

I know that's a lot of "if"'s....

 

[ChicanaRose]

Have you read the book, Purgatory by Tan Books?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Have you read the book, Purgatory by Tan Books?

Sounds good. Stuff from TAN is usually really good.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I haven't made up my mind as to whether or not to believe purgatory exists...

...but for you, as a practicing Catholic, how do you pray when you are not sure a deceased person is saved or not?

Because if she is not saved, it's a waste of time, right (since purgatory is for the already-saved)?

If you are not sure, do you pray, "Father, if she is in purgatory..."?

Since I am not sure whether the person I lost was saved, nor whether to believe in purgatory, I'm thinking about praying:

"Lord, if purgatory exists, and if she is there, help her"

I know that's a lot of "if"'s....

That's ok. An "if" is always ok.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Sounds good. Stuff from TAN is usually really good.

I'm sorry, it's actually called "Purgatory Explained" Linked below:

You are being redirected...

 

[anna ~ grace]

I'm sorry, it's actually called "Purgatory Explained" Linked below:

You are being redirected...

Thank you!