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Messages from souls in purgatory

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by Athanasias, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Great saints and mystics like St. Padre Pio had seen purgatorial souls and they asked him to offer mass and pray for them as they were suffering/being purified. Our Lady showed the children at Fatima heaven, hell and purgatory. We have a history of evidence for messages of souls in purgatory: Obviously as a Catholic I believe these things. Take a look. what do you think?

     
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  2. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mystics? Communion with the dead? Children in hell?

    Dude. None of this is Christian. At all.

    Praying the Lord gives you revelation into the truth.
     
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  3. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Hmm ok fair enough. I accept as a protestant you do not believe it. But Catholics do. I think divine revelation scripture and apostolic tradition shows us there is a purgatory. The Jews did and do as well and I as a Catholics also see these evidences in this video as proofs as well as the 2000 years of saints and exorcist that have seen these.
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The only reference to someone in hell is the story about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man in hell could communicate only with Abraham who was across the impassable gulf in Paradise. It was made quite clear that communication between the dead either in Hell or Purgatory is impossible.
     
  5. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    Not everything is in the Bible
     
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  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The only truth about heaven and hell is in the Bible. Other extra-Biblical notions are good theories but not necessarily true.
     
  7. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Yes ok well we have a different understanding of this. Anything that happens God must allow. Nothing happens without his allowing it. If God allows someone in purgatory to communicate with those on earth(for the purpose of prayers) then thats up to God. We have many instances of this starting with the Jews and early Christians like the early martyrs Perpetua and Felicity. So I think there is strong evidnece for this.
     
  8. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Well Jews and Catholics view purgatory as biblical. Of course its also traditional.
     
  9. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    Well we will just have to agree to disagree. I am not a Sola Scriptura or Bible alone person
     
  10. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    I think it going to be hard to discount all the historical evidence for appreaces from souls in purgatory. Protestants I think fear all the evidence because it challenge their worldview. But it did not challenges the majority of Christians historically.
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I don't see any direct references to it. The only mention of Jesus was of the rich man in Sheol, awaiting judgment. According to clear Scripture, there are two places - Sheol, where the souls of the unconverted dead go to await the great while throne judgment; and Paradise, where the converted dead await to rise from the dead at the second coming of Christ.
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yep. I will know in a few year's time when I fall off the perch, but I won't be able to come back to tell you whether there is a purgatory or not! :)
     
  13. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Jews (and Catholics)understood it to come from Zech 13:9 and 2 Macc 12:44-45

    See here: PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    In addition Catholics see it implied in Matt 5:22-26, Matt 18 24-35, 1 Cor 3:10-15, and 2 Tim 1:18.
     
  14. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    CS Lewis on Purgatory and praying for the dead:


    Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him?

    On the traditional Protestant view, all the dead are damned or saved. If they are damned, prayer for them is useless. If they are saved, it is equally useless. God has already done all for them. What more should we ask? But don’t we believe that God has already done and is already doing all that He can for the living? What more should we ask? Yet we are told to ask.

    “Yes,” it will be answered, “but the living are still on the road. Further trials, further developments, possibilities of error, await them. But the saved have been made perfect. They have finished the course. To pray for them presupposes that progress and difficulty are still possible. In fact, you are bringing in something like Purgatory.”

    Well, I suppose I am. Though even in Heaven some perpetual increase of beatitude, reached by a continually more ecstatic self-surrender, without the possibility of failure but not perhaps without its own ardours and exertions—for delight also has its severities and steep ascents, as lovers know—might be supposed. But I won’t press, or guess, that side for the moment. I believe in Purgatory.

    Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on “the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory” as that Romish doctrine had then become. I don’t mean merely the commercial scandal [that is, the selling of indulgences]. If you turn from Dante’s Purgatorio to the sixteenth century you will be appalled by the degradation. In Thomas More’s Supplication of Souls Purgatory is simply temporary Hell. In it the souls are tormented by devils, whose presence is “more horrible and grievous to us than is the pain itself.” Worse still, [John] Fisher, in his Sermon on Psalm VI, says the tortures are so intense that the spirit who suffers them cannot, for pain, “remember God as he ought to do.” in fact, the very etymology of the word purgatory has dropped out of sight. Its pains do not bring us nearer to God, but make us forget Him. It is a place not of purification but purely of retributive punishment.

    The right view returns magnificently in [John Henry] Newman’s Dream[of Gerontius]. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer “With its darkness to affront that light.” Religion has claimed Purgatory.​

    Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objections, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know”—”Even so, sir.”

    I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse not much better than I will suffer less than I or more. “No nonsense about merit.” The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

    My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am “coming round,” a voice will say, “Rinse your mouth out with this.” This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of thismay be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But More and Fisher shall not persuade me that it will be disgusting and unhallowed. (Letters to Malcolm, p. 107-109).
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I made it halfway through the video.

    I am not too comfortable about communicating with the dead, praying FOR them is o n e thing, Episcopal Book of Common Prayer says "we pray for the dead because we still hold them in our care".

    King Saul had the Witch of Endor call up the spirit of deceased Samuel, it SEEMS communicating with the dead is REAL but WRONG...

    Moses appearing at Mt of Transfiguration ( with Elijah who never died ) seems in a class by itself.

    Paul speaks of "baptizing for the dead" and it seems no one agrees on what that means.

    In the parable of beggar Lazarus, there are only TWO STATES - Abraham's Bosom for the good, "Torments" - Tartarus - for the damned.

    I am Protestant, and Don't buy into Purgatory, but can't put down Catholic Brethren for believing in it.

    But communicating with the dead may be a matter of witchcraft and/or demonology.

    Moses on Mt. Tabor and Lazarus of Bethany ( not the beggar of the parable ) and a guy Paul raised from death after the guy fell out of a window, a few cases like that - seem to indicate the only biblical reason to communicate with t h e dead was to call them back to life
     
  16. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla His will; my fate.

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    My personal opinion is that some of these situations aren’t hailing from the source the recipient believes. It can be difficult to discern the truth and deception can occur. We must exercise wisdom and prudence.

    While Judaism may agree with the idea of purgatory its manifestation is wholly different from what you’ve shared. We recite the Kaddish to honor our loved ones. It is typically done for a parent, spouse, and children but may also include siblings.

    The prayer is recited for eleven months from the day of the death and also on the anniversary of a death. We join in unison on Shabbat with fellow mourners and say...

    English Translation

    May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified.
    (Amen)
    In the world that He created as He willed.
    May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, swiftly and soon.
    Now respond: Amen.
    (Amen)
    May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.
    May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.

    Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One, Blessed is He
    (Blessed is He) beyond any blessing and song,
    praise and consolation that are uttered in the world.
    Now respond: Amen.

    May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life
    upon us and upon all Israel.
    Now respond: Amen.
    He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace,
    upon us and upon all Israel.
    Now respond: Amen.


    This is a prayer of praise that recognizes Adonai’s greatness. We don’t address the dead at all.

    Our practice and approach has nothing in common with the video shared. Nor are we encouraged to mirror their actions.
     
  17. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Thats fair enough. When we communicate with the dead we do not mean seances trying to get info from them. We mean God allowing them to talk to or get our attention on earth and ask for our prayers. If they try to ask for anything more or want to develop a continued relationship they are then usually demons according to exorcist and demonologist.God merely allows purgatorial souls to communicate us so we can pray for them. At leas that how we understood it. That museum in the video was pretty neat especially the fiery hand prints.to me it more evidence for purgatory.
     
  18. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you have scriptures to support purgatory? Cuz I'm fairly confident there's none.

    And nothing personal intended by my Sharp response towards you in the first place. It just seems like you went off on a tangent about mysticism and other unchristian paganistic content. This is a huge reason why I'm not RCC, because RCC gets into all that. Scripture is clear that we need none of that auxiliary stuff. The truth is in Christ, his life, death, resurrection. I resolve to know nothing additional to Christ and Him crucified. All that other stuff is dreck and horoscopes honestly.
     
  19. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    I certainly appreciate that. I have friends in the Hebrew Catholic Assoc and they seem to see the connection. they are Jewish converts to the faith who retain the Jewish identity and yet are fully Catholic.

    The Jewish encyclopedia has a great article on Purgatory and it is virtually the same doctrine that catholics teach it even basically says so. It even list at the end of the article the connections with the sacrifice of Holy Mass for the dead and the Kaddish and is reflected in 2 Macc 12 .

    PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    I thought you may find this site interesting. I did some talks(the Hebrew Catholic Assoc on the Jewish roots of the faith).


    Home
    Here is Dr. Feingold on Purgatory

    15.03 Purgatory

    You may find this interesting.
     
  20. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Sure

    Jews (and Catholics)understood it to come from Zech 13:9 and 2 Macc 12:44-45

    See here: PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    In addition Catholics see it implied in Matt 5:22-26, Matt 18 24-35, 1 Cor 3:10-15, and 2 Tim 1:18.
     
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