Messages from souls in purgatory

[friend of]

God merely allows purgatorial souls to communicate us so we can pray for them.

I'm not against praying for the dead, even as a Protestant. I'm not going to tell someone they cant pray for a passed loved one, as that would be rather rude and none of my business, otherwise. God hears those prayers as He hears all prayers. Scripture says that after this life comes judgement, which paints a picture of immediacy. Scripture also says that we are to pray for the saints at all times. So, does that mean even after a saint has passed? Perhaps.

 

[Athanasias]

I'm not against praying for the dead, even as a Protestant. I'm not going to tell someone they cant pray for a passed loved one, as that would be rather rude and none of my business, otherwise. God hears those prayers as He hears all prayers. Scripture says that after this life comes judgement, which paints a picture of immediacy. Scripture also says that we are to pray for the saints at all times. So, does that mean even after a saint has passed? Perhaps.

Let me ask you this. Why pray for dead? If the dead are in heaven no prayers are needed as they see God face to face. If they are in hell no prayer can ever get them out they suffer eternally it only makes sense if there is a type of purification that can be aided by our prayers. Wouldn't you say that is true?

 

[charsan]

Scripture is clear that we need none of that auxiliary stuf

Without debating (not allowed in here) I will say Scripture does not say anything like that and Christian Mysticism goes back to the early Church and the Eastern Church still has but the western evangelicals have chucked away

Orthodoxy and Mysticism - Part 1 - Eastern Orthodoxy and Mysticism: The Transformation of the Senses - Hieromonk Irenei Steenberg | Ancient Faith Ministries

 

[bèlla]

I certainly appreciate that. I have friends in the Hebrew Catholic Assoc and they seem to see the connection. they are Jewish converts to the faith who retain the Jewish identity and yet are fully Catholic.

Thank you for sharing the links. Catholicism has many Jewish influences. But our approach to the supernatural differs significantly.

I’m familiar with Catholic teachings. I was reared in Catholicism and I’m also Jewish. It would be errant to say we’re on the same page. Using Judaism to substantiate your claim is wrong.

It must stand on the foundation Catholicism has erected.

 

[Athanasias]

Thank you for sharing the links. Catholicism has many Jewish influences. But our approach to the supernatural differs significantly.

I’m familiar with Catholic teachings. I was reared in Catholicism and I’m also Jewish. It would be errant to say we’re on the same page. Using Judaism to substantiate your claim is wrong.

It must stand on the foundation Catholicism has erected.

Hmm ok well what do you see is the main difference between the Catholic and Jewish view of purgatory. The article on Jewish enclycopedia makes virtually the same connections that the CCC makes to purifying fire and prayers for the dead and even connects it to the mass and Kaddish. Could you explain?

 

[friend of]

Jews (and Catholics)understood it to come from Zech 13:9 and 2 Macc 12:44-45

I'm not gonna touch 2 Macc, but Zech 13:9 seems to be talking about the garden of gethsemane and the Apostles who were overcome by "Tribulation" after Christ had been apprehended. This is not a literal fire or a purgatory, its speaking metaphorically about an internal fire of testing and trying of their faith. Jesus was taken from them unexpectedly and this would have sent any one of us reeling in confusion and fear over what God had ordained to happen. This happens in the lives of believers. We go through periods of testing and we have to raise our Shield of faith and hold on to the rest of our armor and defeat the fear that comes from the enemy, proving our faith as genuine and authentic and precious in the sight of God. Refined as through a spiritual fire.

Zechariah 13:9 has nothing to do with RCC's concoction of "Purgatory"

Be well.

 

[Athanasias]

I'm not gonna touch 2 Macc, but Zech 13:9 seems to be talking about the garden of gethsemane and the Apostles who were overcome by "Tribulation" after Christ had been apprehended. This is not a literal fire or a purgatory, its speaking metaphorically about an internal fire of testing and trying of their faith. Jesus was taken from them unexpectedly and this would have sent any one of us reeling in confusion and fear over what God had ordained to happen. This happens in the lives of believers. We go through periods of testing or we have to raise our Shield of faith and hold on to the rest of our armor and defeat the fear that comes from the enemy, proving our faith as genuine and authentic and precious in the sight of God. Refined as through a spiritual fire.

Zechariah 13:9 has nothing to do with RCC's concoction of "Purgatory"

I understand that is not how protestants like yourself view that verse in Zech 13:9. But I was talking about how Jews and Catholics see it. You must understand that is how rabbi's understood it(please see the article from Jewish enclycopedia which shows this). Likewise catholics view it in similiar fashion in a polyvalent way. The NT equivalent of the purifying fire at judgement is in 1 COr 3:10-15 but Jesus also implies it in Matt 5 and Matt 18 and Paul prays for the dead in 2 Tim. So Catholics view those verses as evidnece for the doctrine. But we also look to apostolic tradition, miracles, negative evidence like those in that museum, and the authority of Holy Mother Church herself. Does that help. We see it in the Bible but in much more then just the Bible as we are not sola scriptura Christians.

 

[Anto9us]

I wrote that communicating with the dead might be a matter of witchcraft and/or demonology, the autocorrect on this kindle changed that to "witchcraft and/or terminology" - I went back and edited, but it had already been quoted...

In any case, this thread is a very rational discussion on the afterlife, which I believe t h e Bible is rather ambiguous about.

"Beaten with few stripes/beaten with many stripes" - this not a consistent presentation of afterlife.

It is possible that Purgatory may b e an extension of Baema judgement seat of Christ, which I see, like Catholics see Purgatory, as only for the Saved

 

[Athanasias]

I wrote that communicating with the dead might be a matter of witchcraft and/or demonology, the autocorrect on this kindle changed that to "witchcraft and/or terminology" - I went back and edited, but it had already been quoted...

In any case, this thread is a very rational discussion on the afterlife, which I believe t h e Bible is rather ambiguous about.

"Beaten with few stripes/beaten with many stripes" - this not a consistent presentation of afterlife.

It is possible that Purgatory may b e an extension of Baema judgement seat of Christ, which I see, like Catholics see Purgatory, as only for the Saved

Good Question. What purgatory is is final purification or sanctification. the idea is simple. No sin in heaven but most of us on earth still commit sins and have attachments that are worldly when we die. If we die in Gods friendship but still have venial sins(lesser sins) on our souls and attachments to this world Jesus Christ purifies them in the afterlife. Pope Benedict believed the fire of purgatory was the gaze of Christ melting away our sins and uniting us more fully to himself. does that help?

 

[bèlla]

Hmm ok well what do you see is the main difference between the Catholic and Jewish view of purgatory. The article on Jewish enclycopedia makes virtually the same connections that the CCC makes to purifying fire and prayers for the dead and even connects it to the mass and Kaddish. Could you explain?

Where do you think their perspective came from? We didn’t copy them. More importantly, the theology is different. You can’t sidestep that.

Your theory rests upon experiences that would never be promoted or taken as gospel by Jews. And the fact your position is dependent upon references to Judaism on a Christian site should tell you its incomplete.

You’re not talking to Jews. You’re talking to Christians and that’s the position you have to work from. You have to find common denominators with your audience. Start with the bible and go from there.

 

[Anto9us]

Yeah. I believe in some sort of purification in the afterlife, I just don't have a fixed theology about what it is.

 

[Athanasias]

Where do you think their perspective came from? We didn’t copy them. More importantly, the theology is different. You can’t sidestep that.

Your theory rests upon experiences that would never be promoted or taken as gospel by Jews. And the fact your position is dependent upon references to Judaism on a Christian site should tell you its incomplete.

You’re not talking to Jews. You’re talking to Christians and that’s the position you have to work from. You have to find common denominators with your audience. Start with the bible and go from there.

Thank you for you dialog and honesty. Your right that Catholics teach much more then the Jews do on this as the Catholic Church is a fullfillment and outgrowth of Judiasm so we would expect that there to be more that . But what I was trying to show was that the idea of purgatory came from the Jews first and is virtually the same basic concept(essence) of purification of a soul by fire and prayers for the dead. This is the essence of the doctrine that Catholics hold to and the early Church held to and it developed as all doctrines do so there is much more but that is the same essence as the Jews doctrine of this. In fact the Jewish encyclopedia made those catholic connections to Mass and Kaddish and quoted those scriptures that our Catechism also quotes. In other words the authors of the Jewish encyclopedia see the connection between the two in essence. But I alos know several Hebrew Catholics that also see this connection. So my position did come from some Jews but also from many sources like the early martyrs and saints and mystics who had visions and the NT and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. . Does that make any sense to you?

 

[Athanasias]

Yeah. I believe in some sort of purification in the afterlife, I just don't have a fixed theology about what it is.

Ok great! That is the basic essence of purgatory. Its not flushed out like our theology is but its the basic concept. You get it!

 

[charsan]

This teaching is from Satan.

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"This teaching is from Satan" is not being respectful as the rules require

 

[Athanasias]

This is one of my favorite purgatorial passages:

Wisdom 3:1-7
But the souls of the just are in God's hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble.

 

[bèlla]

But what I was trying to show was that the idea of purgatory came from the Jews first and is virtually the same basic concept(essence) of purification of a soul by fire and prayers for the dead.

An idea and the practices which develop from the notion are different animals. The concept and the fruit are light years apart.

In fact the Jewish encyclopedia made those catholic connections to Mass and Kaddish and quoted those scriptures that our Catechism also quotes.

Riddle me this, can you grasp the fullness of Catholicism from a book? Will a website provide clarity on aspects of the faith you can’t know without walking it out yourself? Of course not.

So my position did come from some Jews but also from many sources like the early martyrs and saints and mystics who had visions and the NT and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. . Does that make any sense to you?

Mysticism is not practiced by all and that veers into other subjects that aren’t part of this discussion. Suffice to say, the examples shown in your video would never be addressed to a congregation or suggested either. No Rabbi would do that.

If you want to understand you have to go to the source and draw your own conclusions. That isn’t a website or a third party. You have to be among the people. There are things they’ll never publish and would only reveal in certain company.

Because you’re lacking personal familiarity with the subject and in light of your audience it would be better to broach the topic from a position everyone understands. You’ll have a richer discussion too.

 

[Athanasias]

An idea and the practices which develop from the notion are different animals. The concept and the fruit are light years apart.



Riddle me this, can you grasp the fullness of Catholicism from a book? Will a website provide clarity on aspects of the faith you can’t know without walking it out yourself? Of course not.



Mysticism is not practiced by all and that veers into other subjects that aren’t part of this discussion. Suffice to say, the examples shown in your video would never be addressed to a congregation or suggested either. No Rabbi would do that.

If you want to understand you have to go to the source and draw your own conclusions. That isn’t a website or a third party. You have to be among the people. There are things they’ll never publish and would only reveal in certain company.

Because you’re lacking personal familiarity with the subject and in light of your audience it would be better to broach the topic from a position everyone understands. You’ll have a richer discussion too.

I very much appreciate your input on this. I want you to know I see what your saying and yes the video is not what I am talking about. The video is not Jewish at all. The video is just an example of what I think is additional evidence for this doctrine. What I am talking about is the doctrine itself which is final purification by fire(same purgatorial concept Jewish rabbi's and catholic teach).. Its true I am not a jew nor have i walked in their shoes but my teachers were. They were Jewish converts. Like the Jewish encyclopedia and its Jewish scholars they saw the same connections in purgatory to the Catholic faith that I did. I also cannot deny the evidence of the early Church and martyrs and mystics and saints on this

 

[friend of]

Without debating (not allowed in here) I will say Scripture does not say anything like that and Christian Mysticism goes back to the early Church and the Eastern Church still has but the western evangelicals have chucked away

Could you tell me what specific mysticism Christians are supposed to be acquainted with then?

 

[com7fy8]

First, of course, we do have messages from our Apostles, in the New Testament. So, are these getting the most attention, then? Or are people getting into other things from claimed Purgatory people or whatever. Are voices "back from the dead" getting more attention than God's word???? How well do you know God's word, compared to how well you know other things?

For just one example, do you know Jesus prayed for us to be loved by our Father the way our Father loves Jesus? John 17:22-26

Has this gotten your attention? Or are other things keeping your attention elsewhere?

I think divine revelation scripture and apostolic tradition shows us there is a purgatory.

How about the New Testament? Do the Apostles in their New Testament writings give this tradition in clear terms?

I notice how Hebrews 12:4-14 says God corrects His children, and the result of God's correction is that we share with Him in His own holiness in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". Does this get at least as much attention as Purgatory, in Catholic tradition?

If not, then Purgatory could be a very dangerous thing of procrastination so people do not personally seek how our Father is now able to correct us . . . so better than we can try. If what we are doing does not work, this is because what we get ourselves to do does not work. God's grace is almighty to succeed in us . . . now . . . no procrastinating.

The Jews did and do as well

Are you talking about Jews who do not honor and obey their Messiah Jesus? If you are talking about Jews still in darkness, I would not trust what they are capable of thinking, if they think Jesus is not their Messiah. They are not a source, I would think, of authority for what is Christian belief, if they don't even believe a basic.

So, is God's word getting your attention, most of all? Canon Scripture has so much of what Apostles themselves have given to us. And God's grace does all He means by what He says. He in us does what His word means >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, this is a basic of Christianity, how God personally shares with us, having us will and do what He really wants. He is not distant from any of His children.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, this is a basic of our calling > "in one body" > how our Heavenly Father pleases to personally rule each of us, in our "hearts" < very personally, indeed > so we are sharing in His own peace which is His own harmony of Him in His love. In God's peace we have His almighty safety against various cruel things of fear and worry and hate and unforgiveness and dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasure which can not love us like God does. And in the ruling of our Creator's peace, He is sharing His creativity with us, for how to love each and every person.

So, how much are your tradition and homilies bringing attention to this which is right in your Canon Scripture?

 

[bèlla]

I very much appreciate your input on this. I want you to know I see what your saying and yes the video is not what I am talking about. The video is not Jewish at all. The video is just an example of what I think is additional evidence for this doctrine.

It isn’t just the video. That’s what I’m getting at. When you say Judaism agrees with Catholicism’s perspective on purgatory. You can’t dissociate what that means because your example is part of your theology. It isn’t your opinion. It references subjects the church approves.

That is the conclusion we’ve reached. Theoretically you know this. Your interpretation has led you elsewhere and the results would not be seen favorably in Judaism.

Its true I am not a jew nor have i walked in their shoes but my teachers were. They were Jewish converts. Like the Jewish encyclopedia and its Jewish scholars they saw the same connections in purgatory to the Catholic faith that I did. I also cannot deny the evidence of the early Church and martyrs and mystics and saints on this

Catholicism drew upon the idea of purgatory from Judaism. That is true. But the interpretation of what it means does not agree.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed. They were influenced by Christianity. In that we agree. But our understanding of who he was is not the same. Our conclusions are world’s apart.

If you built an argument on that notion you’ll run into trouble. The agreement has birthed different conclusions. If the audience is Muslim, you’d mention it to sway them. If its Christian, you needn’t do so. They’re already convinced.

Your are welcome to your opinion. I am not a convert. I’m speaking from a Jewish perspective completely.