Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

[Yoder777]

This is a depiction of Mehmed's promise to Gennadius II to respect the religious rights of Orthodox Christians in the new Ottoman empire. Though I've had a great deal of resentment against the Turks for persecuting my Greek ancestors, this was mostly at the hands of the "Young Turks" who founded modern Turkey at the end of the Ottoman empire.

While Mehmed may not be considered a friend to the Orthodox, did he at least respect their right to worship as a conquered people? I know it's rather easy to feel resentment, but we must understand that it's the nature of nation-states to overtake nation-states. If you're posting on this forum, it's most likely on the land of Indian tribes that you are posting from now.

Were Orthodox Christians treated better by Mehmed than native Americans were treated by white settlers? And what are the religious rights of Christians in Turkey today?

 

[rusmeister]

Ever heard of Janisarries? Or devshirme?

 

[Yoder777]

Ever heard of Janisarries? Or devshirme?

Yes, I am familiar with these things. I am also tired of feeling resentment against Muslim Turks, and would like to find whatever bright spots there may be in our shared history.

 

[Yeznik]

Were Orthodox Christians treated better by Mehmed than native Americans were treated by white settlers?

Non sequitur

And what are the religious rights of Christians in Turkey today?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3PQ7FS17A

 

[Yoder777]

Non sequitur

Not if you are an American and concerned about hypocrisy. Why should we, as American Orthodox Christians, feel resentment against the Turks if we did the same thing to the Indians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca3PQ7FS17A

Among predominately Muslim countries, is Turkey more respectful to the rights of Christians?

I understand that this topic can stir up bad feelings and I am sorry that it does. I just don't want to be resentful anymore.

When I was in college, a Turkish woman came to my history class, and during the Q and A session, I demanded she answer several times as to why the Greek and Armenian holocaust happened, as if one woman today could be responsible for the sins committed a hundred years ago. I realize now that I was wrong.

When she said that Greeks and Turks are so similar culturally that they are really like brothers who always get into fights, I realize now that she may have had a point.

Was Mehmed good for the Armenians?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror, who put an end to Byzantine rule, allowed the foundation of the Armenian Patriarchate, an unprecedented move for the Armenians to whom he granted freedom of conscience and faith. The transformation of the Armenian Episcopate in Western Anatolia to the Istanbul Patriarchate, following a decree he issued in 1461, is clear evidence of the vision and tolerance displayed by Mehmed and of the subsequent Ottoman Sultans toward other faiths.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Following the reign of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror, Turco-Armenian relations continued excellently until the end of the 19th century. In fact, Armenians were by far, the greatest beneficiaries of the opportunities offered by the Ottoman Empire to all industrious, efficient, honest and productive subjects of the non-muslim communities. Being exempted from the military service and to a great extent from taxation, the Armenians had the opportunity to make headway in trade, agriculture, craftsmanship and administration, and by reason of their loyalty to the Empire, as well as their ability to intermingle with other subjects, they had duely attained the title of 'loyal people'.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://mail.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~eertan/aia/Relations/Turco-Armenian%20Relations.html
[/FONT]

When Constantinople finally became a part of Ottoman Empire, financial support was given to Orthodox Armenians by the Sultan, so they could build their churches on the land of the Empire. Many of the Armenian churches in Anatolia and Istanbul, were built in 1453 or after reflecting tolerance of the Ottoman Empire to other ethnic groups and various religions living under their control during that time.
Armenians in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does Ewald Stadler belong to a fascist political party?
Robert Spencer Goes Bonkers for Austrian Fascist Ewald Stadler | Spencer Watch

About the murder of Bishop Luigi Padovese, the perpetrator seems to have been mentally ill:

Bishop Padovese's driver (Murat Altun) for the last four and half years, who had been receiving treatment for psychological disorders, is suspected by Turkish police as the killer, and was detained by Turkish police on June 3. The suspect stated that he killed Padovese on a wahy (revelation), which identified him as Dajjal (the Antichrist) and recited the adhan loudly during his initial trial.[6] Turkish police believe the murder was not politically motivated.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Padovese#Murder

The murderer was given a 15-year prison sentence for his crime:
Turkey: 15-year sentence for bishop's killer : News Headlines - Catholic Culture

 

[Yoder777]

I again want to say that I am sorry for bringing up a touchy subject. I honestly want to look at the shared history between Islamic Turks and Greek and Armenian Christians in as objective a way as possible, in order to at least help myself get over past resentments.

I once asked a member of my church from Turkey how he felt about the Greek genocide at the hands of the Turks, and he reminded me that a civil war between the Greeks and Turks was going on at the time, and there was killing from both sides.

Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today, is there more peace between Orthodox Christians and Muslims?

Greek Church backs mosque

April 5, 2006
Kathimerine Tuesday April 6, 2006
The Church of Greece expressed support yesterday for the creation of a mosque in Athens so that the city’s Muslims would have a place of worship.

Support has been growing for the idea recently but the Greek Orthodox Church had remained silent on the issue until after yesterday’s meeting of the Holy Synod.
“Nobody can deny the faithful of a well-known religion like Islam the right to exercise their religious duties freely,” said Bishop Chrysostomos of Patras. “We live in a democratic country which should display respect and tolerance.”
The Synod did not discuss the mosque’s location but said it would tackle the subject soon. A mosque in Monastiraki Square in central Athens is being touted as a possibility. It was built in 1759 but is currently used as an art museum. There are no official mosques in Athens and Muslims often travel to Thrace for religious ceremonies.
Greek Church backs mosque | OrthodoxNet.com Blog

 

[buzuxi02]

Turks are Armenians and Greeks who converted to Islam. The real Turks are a mongol tribe still found in Siberia and parts of China.

Islamic culture doesnt persecute majorities from the outset. They instead create an ambiance where conversion to Islam is the best option.

Initially you can continue to operate your own schools but cant repair them if become dilapidated. You can freely worship in your own churches but you cant have a procession outside your church.
You can avoid paying the tax, by giving up your son to be raised in the turkish military as an orphan.

A non-muslim male cannot marry a muslim woman. But a muslim male can marry an infidel woman and incentives are put in place to encourage this.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate can operate freely, but cant own or maintain its property. It cannot own a printing press. It cannot operate a seminary. It cannot legally use the word 'ecumenical' in its title. The EP must ask for special permission to travel abroad. His successor must be a turkish citizen. And his ecclesiastical status is not recognized by Turkey. The EP is simply the ethnarc of the last remaining 3000 Romans on Turkish soil.


By the way you failed to mention the persecution of the Maronites in Turkey. Actually they dont have a voice all 50,000 were exterminated in 1880.

 

[Yoder777]

Turks are Armenians and Greeks who converted to Islam. The real Turks are a mongol tribe still found in Siberia and parts of China.

Are you saying this is true for the majority of Turks? What evidence is there for this? Is is not also true that Christians have more rights in Turkey than in other Islamic countries and that the Armenian patriarchate in Turkey wasn't founded until after the rise of the Turks, when they were no longer being persecuted by the Byzantines? Is it not true that the killing between Greeks and Turks happened from both sides? About the genocide of Maronites, I am ignorant of that topic.

For what it's worth, this Turkish man from my church of Syriac ancestry plans on returning to Turkey after retirement. He doesn't feel that Christians are too persecuted to live there.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think part of the resentment is that the Turks officially refuse to recognize things like the Armenian genocide. in the US, we openly admit our own abuses like what happened to the Native Americans, slavery, etc.

 

[Yeznik]

[FONT=&quot]

Not if you are an American and concerned about hypocrisy. Why should we, as American Orthodox Christians, feel resentment against the Turks if we did the same thing to the Indians?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are comparing Apples to Oranges. The methodology that you are using falls under the modern philosophical ideologies of Reductionism. The Americans accept and to some degree tried to resolve the wrong doings of previous generations. The Turkish government offers no such resolution. They deny the fact of the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish government today is still trying to cash in on the life insurance policies of Armenians from the time of the Genocide. Also go read what happened to Hrant Dink. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So, when the Turkish government owns up to the Genocide, let’s Greeks, Syrians and Armenians open multi-billions dollar casinos (tax free), Give out land grants (to say the least) and lets them establishes nation states. Then we can start comparing. [/FONT]

I will post a comment on the other statements later.

 

[buzuxi02]

Early on the armenians were primarily under the Sassanid Empire. In the 8th century there were no armenian lands under the Empire just a colony or two, most Armenians during this time actually migrated as refugees into the empire. In fact a few of these Armenians were of a heretical sect called the Paulicians, they were persecuted less in byzantine lands.

The whole point is that the empire was very multiracial The precense of Armenian generals in the army of the byzantines was impressive. There was also emperors of armenian origins. Armenians once again came under byzantine rule in the 9th-11 centuries, where again they held prominent positions.

Establishing an armenian patriarch in Constantinople would have been uncanonical as there is a canonical patriarchate alrady established.

The Turks gave them a Patriarchate not because they needed one but because to manipulate and cause tensions between the two religious communities. The title 'Patriarch' was legally established by Justinian to denote the largest centers of Chalcedonian christianity within the empire. Under the turkish yoke establishing some new legal status fr an ecclesiaistical group didnt matter, nor did it mean anything.

 

[Yoder777]

I think part of the resentment is that the Turks officially refuse to recognize things like the Armenian genocide. in the US, we openly admit our own abuses like what happened to the Native Americans, slavery, etc.

At least between the Greeks and Turks, the mass slaughter was between both sides. There was a civil war at the time.

 

[Yoder777]

I will post a comment on the other statements later.

Please do so. I've made some very important points and I appreciate your perspective. I am honestly trying to learn more about these issues from a variety of perspectives. Is it not true that the Turks, at least initially, gave the Armenians more freedom than the Byzantines did?

Even though we are discussing a "hot button" issue, I am being very careful to not use a polemical tone, and I am sorry if I've offended anyone.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror, who put an end to Byzantine rule, allowed the foundation of the Armenian Patriarchate, an unprecedented move for the Armenians to whom he granted freedom of conscience and faith. The transformation of the Armenian Episcopate in Western Anatolia to the Istanbul Patriarchate, following a decree he issued in 1461, is clear evidence of the vision and tolerance displayed by Mehmed and of the subsequent Ottoman Sultans toward other faiths.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Following the reign of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror, Turco-Armenian relations continued excellently until the end of the 19th century. In fact, Armenians were by far, the greatest beneficiaries of the opportunities offered by the Ottoman Empire to all industrious, efficient, honest and productive subjects of the non-muslim communities. Being exempted from the military service and to a great extent from taxation, the Armenians had the opportunity to make headway in trade, agriculture, craftsmanship and administration, and by reason of their loyalty to the Empire, as well as their ability to intermingle with other subjects, they had duely attained the title of 'loyal people'.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://mail.sci.ccny.cuny.edu/~eertan/aia/Relations/Turco-Armenian%20Relations.html[/FONT]

 

[ArmyMatt]

At least between the Greeks and Turks, the mass slaughter was between both sides. There was a civil war at the time.

yeah I know there is bad blood and such, my point was the outright denial of the death of over a million people. I imagine that if we did that with the Native Americans, or the Germans did it about their untermenchen, etc, the world would throw a fit, and rightfully so.

 

[buzuxi02]

The majority of turks are not mongols. In the late 1800's almost 40% of turkey's population were christian. Turks are the janisseries of christian parents and the rest are converts to Islam mostly greeks and armenians (but some are of other Orthodox origins). This is a fact. The grand mosques of Instanbul was built by a Orthodox christian of serbian origin who had to convert.

I know a pilgrim who stayed in a bed and breakfast in Turkey. When she told the turkish owner she was Greek Orthodox. He told her the house was built and passed down by his descendants for centuries. He removed a rug where there was a mosaic floor with greek inscriptions. It was probably original built by the man's greek-christian descendants as family chapel.

 

[Yoder777]

yeah I know there is bad blood and such, my point was the outright denial of the death of over a million people. I imagine that if we did that with the Native Americans, or the Germans did it about their untermenchen, etc, the world would throw a fit, and rightfully so.

I think that, as a condition of joining the EU, Turkey should recognize what happened. At the same time, there should perhaps be admissions and apologies from all sides.

The plight of Ottoman Muslims throughout the 19th and 20th centuries is also mentioned. According to the historian Mark Mazower, Turkey resents the fact that the West is ignorant of the fate of millions of Muslims expelled from the Balkans and Russia, and would consider any apology towards Armenians as a confirmation of the anti-Turkish sentiment held by Western powers for centuries. Mazower recognizes a genocide of the Armenians, but he notes "Even today, no connection is made between the genocide of the Armenians and Muslim civilian losses: the millions of Muslims expelled from the Balkans and the Russian Empire through the long 19th century remain part of Europe's own forgotten past. Indeed, the official Turkish response is invariably to remind critics of this fact — an unconvincing justification for genocide, to be sure, but an expression of underlying resentment".[61]
According to one denialist interpretation, the genocide was a two sided battle: "when they [the Armenians] advanced victoriously under the protection of the Russian Army, the same spectacle occurred as in 1915, but this time it was Turks who were attacked by Armenians, aided and possibly commanded and directed by Russia.[62][63]
Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region) and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians), constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia. Whole villages were burnt to the ground and their inhabitants were massacred on spot and left in piles simply because they were inhabited by Turks or Albanians (and later, Bulgarians/Macedonians). The Serbian-orchestrated massacres of Albanians and other Balkan Muslims in Kosovo and Macedonia were soon discovered by the press- and not only the Hapsburg and Ottoman press, but even a number of disaffected Westerners and even Serbs.[64]
Similarly, while Turks committed numerous atrocities against Bulgarians in Thrace during the First Balkan War,[65] the Bulgarians also victimized the Turks (as well as Muslim Bulgarians)[66]
Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed during the Balkan Wars and World War I [67]), it is unreasonable to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War.[citation needed]
Armenian Genocide denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Yoder777]

The majority of turks are not mongols. In the late 1800's almost 40% of turkey's population were christian. Turks are the janisseries of christian parents and the rest are converts to Islam mostly greeks and armenians (but some are of other Orthodox origins). This is a fact. The grand mosques of Instanbul was built by a Orthodox christian of serbian origin who had to convert.

I am not saying you are wrong but I would honestly like to see scholarly evidence for this. If the majority of Turks are not of Mongol origin, how were they converted to Islam?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think that, as a condition of joining the EU, Turkey should recognize what happened. At the same time, there should perhaps be admissions and apologies from all sides.

I think that is actually one of the things on the table, as well as the return of Hagia Sophia. and yeah, mutual forgiveness always helps.

 

[Yoder777]

I think that is actually one of the things on the table, as well as the return of Hagia Sophia. and yeah, mutual forgiveness always helps.

I do find it a little silly and hypocritical when Westerners chant "Free Tibet!" without ever mentioning Constantinople. Why mention one without the other? The Dalai Lama has given up on demanding statehood for Tibet, and instead just wants the persecution to end. Shouldn't Christians in Istanbul be given the same rights?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I do find it a little silly and hypocritical when Westerners chant "Free Tibet!" without ever mentioning Constantinople. Why mention one without the other? The Dalai Lama has given up on demanding statehood for Tibet, and instead just wants the persecution to end. Shouldn't Christians in Istanbul be given the same rights?

definitely a good point