Mecca?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

How can you claim we do not love God when we accept whatever he decrees

Yeah prove that those are God's decrees....

and we do whatever he orders us to?

Gosh you haven't been paying attention to the Muslim community in the West recently?

If Christians really love God why do they deviate

People are included in the Kingdom of God on accord of their faith, not their works. Their faith must play out in works, but their works don't establish our righteousness before God.

why do a lot of them skip Church every Sunday

A person who skips church every Sunday is not living a Christian life. They are not experiencing God in Word and Sacrament, and I daresay they have forsaken the faith. What is a Christian if not a person who lives in the community of the new covenant?

why do they still gamble

I don't....

why do they still drink heavily

I don't....

To claim you love God you must back it up with evidence by becoming righteous and obstaining from sinning as much as possible. To give up your desires and passions for the sake of God, that is true love.

Tell me, you say only God is the true judge and my truly judge who is a true follower and who is not. Aren't you taking God's place, now?

I try to follow the law of God, as revealed in the Torah and in the person of Jesus Christ. I fail at times, but I implore God to be the most gracious and most merciful. Is this not your own doxology?

Anyways, if you truely love God as you claim you would not befriend the unbelievers. Religion isn't a game, it is designed to guide you through life so that you can reach your ultimate target - Paradise. Why would you befriend someone who will not help you reach your target, nor will he increase your Faith? Rather he will make a mockery out of it.

I somewhat agree with you here. At the same time, the Kingdom of God is spread through interpersonal relationships more often than not, and I pray that my continued presence in their lives will be an instrument of God to help them recognize the Lordship of Jesus.

 

[czach8]

Well no one is stopping you, become a Muslim and then you can explore it all you want.

So then can I simply become a Muslim temporarily, and then visit the mosque, right? I just have to make sure the Mecca authorities do not know my true intentions because you and I know why:

In book 28(pertaining to the oath for fighting, requital, and blood) chp 6 says, “it is permissible to take the life of a Muslim pertaining to 3 cases: married adulteress, a lie for a like, and 1 who leaves Islam after accepting it.”

Come to think of it, there is nothing special in the Mecca mosque anyway, so I can care less if I see it. I have visited plenty of mosques in other Middle Eastern countries, and the people there were very welcoming. Peace.

 

[czach8]

yeah but if they live in mecca they are muslim.. they have to be lol.

No this is not true. Non-muslim journalists are allowed, but again I do see your point. However, my point is they do make exceptions.

 

[czach8]

O you who believe! the idolaters (polytheists) are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He pleases; surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (Quran 9:28)

So then Muslims should not be allowed in the mosque for the following reason:

Sahih Muslim book 15 chp 41 says, “excellence of kissing the black stone while circumambulating”.

The mosque itself is engaging in idol worshipping, so who would want to enter a place defiled by idol worshipping?

 

[Raul7]

So then Muslims should not be allowed in the mosque for the following reason:

Sahih Muslim book 15 chp 41 says, “excellence of kissing the black stone while circumambulating”.

The mosque itself is engaging in idol worshipping, so who would want to enter a place defiled by idol worshipping?

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:


'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

We only pay our respects because the Prophet did so, other than that we do not believe it can help or harm us. Everything occurs by the will of God alone. It is best used as a marker to count how many revolutions one did around the Ka'aba.

 

[français]

In book 28(pertaining to the oath for fighting, requital, and blood) chp 6 says, “it is permissible to take the life of a Muslim pertaining to 3 cases: married adulteress, a lie for a like, and 1 who leaves Islam after accepting it.”

that sort of contradicts qu'ran teachings! because in the qu'ran it says all the time that this or that person who did this or that should be killed.

 

[peaceful soul]

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:


'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

We only pay our respects because the Prophet did so, other than that we do not believe it can help or harm us. Everything occurs by the will of God alone. It is best used as a marker to count how many revolutions one did around the Ka'aba.

If it does not mean anything, then why do you navigate around it and hold ceremonies? What you need to state is why did Mohammad have a need to kiss it.

 

[AlanGurvey]

What does this tell you?

Then I learned alot from the Lord's Resistance Army.

 

[Islam_mulia]

So then Muslims should not be allowed in the mosque for the following reason:

Sahih Muslim book 15 chp 41 says, “excellence of kissing the black stone while circumambulating”.

The mosque itself is engaging in idol worshipping, so who would want to enter a place defiled by idol worshipping?

The difference between praying to God alone and praying to others, is the niat (the declaration of your action). The absence of niat will make the prayers null and void.

Hence, a Muslim will say a niat before every prayer, or before circumbulation of the Ka'aba.

You can only charge a person for idol worshipping or shirk (the Stone), if you can show that a person of reason (not mad) kissed the stone and niat that the stone is an idol and bring good fortune or prevents bad things.

The reason why I said in earlier posts, that you need to understand Muslim practices and belief, before opening a hadith and making wild allegations.

 

[MercuryAndy]

so if god wants us to see the stone then why do you not let me? You are not doing ask god has said.

 

[czach8]

that sort of contradicts qu'ran teachings!

Well brother, the mosaic law and Jesus's teachings also contradict each other. In the mosaic law, anyone was killed just for about anything too.

because in the qu'ran it says all the time that this or that person who did this or that should be killed.

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Can you show me examples. Thank you.

 

[czach8]

The difference between praying to God alone and praying to others, is the niat (the declaration of your action). The absence of niat will make the prayers null and void.

Ok.

Hence, a Muslim will say a niat before every prayer, or before circumbulation of the Ka'aba.

You can only charge a person for idol worshipping or shirk (the Stone), if you can show that a person of reason (not mad) kissed the stone and niat that the stone is an idol and bring good fortune or prevents bad things.

Brother, can you please give me supporting evidence of where you got this? Hadith? Quran?

The reason why I said in earlier posts, that you need to understand Muslim practices and belief, before opening a hadith and making wild allegations.

So are you saying I should be a Muslim first before asking such question? How do you know I was not a former Muslim? Think about why I am asking such questions in the first place?

Peace be with you.

 

[TweetyBaby]

How can you claim we do not love God when we accept whatever he decrees and we do whatever he orders us to? If Christians really love God why do they deviate, why do a lot of them skip Church every Sunday, why do they still gamble, why do they still drink heavily, etc. To claim you love God you must back it up with evidence by becoming righteous and obstaining from sinning as much as possible. To give up your desires and passions for the sake of God, that is true love.

i said love nonbelievers, not love god i dont doubt you love your idea of god and all christians are supposed to love god but church isnt needed because jesus said if two or more gather in his name then he will be there. some people cant help but gamble or drink heavily because they have addictions and they should be helped and i dont drink heavily and i havent drunk for over 3 years now and ive never drunk more than 2 light drinks in 1 night and i rarely ever did drink except on special occassions but thats another story. just for the record i go to church every sunday and i would go more often if it was open more but at the moment my church doesnt have a priest. the rest i agree with 100% but i see no love for nonmuslims in islam whereas i see love for everyone in christianity. we always pray for people no matter what religion they are in my church.

 

[IronEagle]

So then Muslims should not be allowed in the mosque for the following reason:

Sahih Muslim book 15 chp 41 says, “excellence of kissing the black stone while circumambulating”.

The mosque itself is engaging in idol worshipping, so who would want to enter a place defiled by idol worshipping?

Why kissing == idol worshipping?

 

[Raul7]

i said love nonbelievers, not love god i dont doubt you love your idea of god and all christians are supposed to love god but church isnt needed because jesus said if two or more gather in his name then he will be there. some people cant help but gamble or drink heavily because they have addictions and they should be helped and i dont drink heavily and i havent drunk for over 3 years now and ive never drunk more than 2 light drinks in 1 night and i rarely ever did drink except on special occassions but thats another story. just for the record i go to church every sunday and i would go more often if it was open more but at the moment my church doesnt have a priest. the rest i agree with 100% but i see no love for nonmuslims in islam whereas i see love for everyone in christianity. we always pray for people no matter what religion they are in my church.

Well we try to guide non-Muslims to show them the Truth. Then it is up to God to guide him and open his eyes to see it. A human can only do so little, it is up to God to do the rest.

But if you really love God, why would you befriend those who deny His existence or even worse mock your beliefs? Do you still befriend those who mock your mother and father? I assume not, now how about those that mock your Creator?

 

[MercuryAndy]

Well we try to guide non-Muslims to show them the Truth. Then it is up to God to guide him and open his eyes to see it. A human can only do so little, it is up to God to do the rest.

But if you really love God, why would you befriend those who deny His existence or even worse mock your beliefs? Do you still befriend those who mock your mother and father? I assume not, now how about those that mock your Creator?

should we kill them?

 

[anatolian]

I wonder if this understanding has an islamic background but i think non-muslims should be allowed to visit makkah and kaba because we let them enter mosques here...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Yes, they are allowed to exist, provided they do not proselytize, pay the protection tax, obey public sharia law, and do not rebuild or make any repairs on the religious institutions. It's the same with synagogues, since both Jews and Christians are people of the book.

Not in Saudi. Can not open a public worship place there.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Just know this... if a mad man decided to sling a nuke over to the cube,imagine how you would continue to practice your faith. That is why "holy" sites of this world belongs to this world and are not matters of faith.

I hope that Andy realized why he is not allowed in the cube and that should be it, because this thread is going to turn into something else also...

 

[Islam_mulia]

So are you saying I should be a Muslim first before asking such question? How do you know I was not a former Muslim? Think about why I am asking such questions in the first place?

Peace be with you.

Nope, that is not what I meant. What I am trying to say is that it would be to your advantage and to the Muslim readers here, that you understand the fundamentals of islamic belief before picking random verses from the hadith.

The above is one fine example. If you had understood what we meant by associating other things with God (shirk) you would have no problem understanding why if you have a proper niat circumbulating or facing the kaaba during prayer is never idol worshipping to us.