Mecca?

[anatolian]

Actually you are wrong, brother. God has been known to cast lying spirits. For instance:

I Kings 22:22-23 says, 'By what means?' the LORD asked. 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

This is proof God has misguided people. Peace.

I think this is another major difference between christians and muslims...christians usually like to talk from their heads instead of Bible but muslims talk what is written in Quran and Sunnah only and this makes muslims wrong in the eyes of those christians...very interesting

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Why aren't i allowed in mecca?

why do you want to go there? what is it your lacking?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

why do you want to go there? what is it your lacking?

Do I have to lack something to visit a landmark?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Actually you are wrong, brother. God has been known to cast lying spirits. For instance:

I Kings 22:22-23 says, 'By what means?' the LORD asked. 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

This is proof God has misguided people. Peace.

Micaiah, the prophet, spoke and said what the Lord had shown him in a vision. He saw the Lord sitting on his throne asking the question, "Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?" There were a few responses, then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, "I will persuade him." The Lord said to him, "In what way?" so the spirit said, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." And the Lord said, "You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so."

The king had Micaiah put in prison and proceed to go to battle against the king of Syria. Even though he was disguised, a random arrow struck the king between his armor and he bled to death in his chariot on the battlefield. So, King Ahab was brought to judgment because God permitted an evil spirit to work in the circumstance.

In His sovereignty, God chose to give mankind free will to make choices. Mankind fell when they chose their own will instead of God’s will. God knew the risks of entrusting freedom to His creatures, but He also knew that relationships and love could only exist through the freedom of the will. Love is a choice.

Unfortunately, freedom allowed sin to enter the picture and produce suffering and death. Sin also gives Satan an opportunity in peoples’ lives. Sin allows Satan to rule for the time being upon the earth. But sin and Satan cannot stop God’s will from being accomplished. In fact, the Lord can take anything and use it to accomplish His purposes. We see in the scriptures how the Lord uses sin and it’s consequences to demonstrate to mankind their need to have God in their lives. He uses our enemy to get our attention as well. Satan may think that he is working out his own agenda, but he and his hosts accomplish God’s purposes in spite of their lies and rebellion.

How is this God lying or misleading or misguiding?

 

[czach8]

Micaiah, the prophet, spoke and said what the Lord had shown him in a vision. He saw the Lord sitting on his throne asking the question, "Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?" There were a few responses, then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, "I will persuade him." The Lord said to him, "In what way?" so the spirit said, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." And the Lord said, "You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so."

The king had Micaiah put in prison and proceed to go to battle against the king of Syria. Even though he was disguised, a random arrow struck the king between his armor and he bled to death in his chariot on the battlefield. So, King Ahab was brought to judgment because God permitted an evil spirit to work in the circumstance.

In His sovereignty, God chose to give mankind free will to make choices. Mankind fell when they chose their own will instead of God’s will. God knew the risks of entrusting freedom to His creatures, but He also knew that relationships and love could only exist through the freedom of the will. Love is a choice.

Unfortunately, freedom allowed sin to enter the picture and produce suffering and death. Sin also gives Satan an opportunity in peoples’ lives. Sin allows Satan to rule for the time being upon the earth. But sin and Satan cannot stop God’s will from being accomplished. In fact, the Lord can take anything and use it to accomplish His purposes. We see in the scriptures how the Lord uses sin and it’s consequences to demonstrate to mankind their need to have God in their lives. He uses our enemy to get our attention as well. Satan may think that he is working out his own agenda, but he and his hosts accomplish God’s purposes in spite of their lies and rebellion.

How is this God lying or misleading or misguiding?

You are absolutely right brother in your assertion, and yes the Jews were not willing to accept God's will, so he did send a lying spirit to fuel their false will. Again, this transpired because they did not accept God's initial guidance, so therefore God had no choice but to misguide them because of the consequence of sin. I was only presented this instance as a reference, and God does misguide people who do not follow His will because ultimately they are only misguiding themselves in the end. Am I right or wrong?

Peace.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by czach8

You are absolutely right brother in your assertion, and yes the Jews were not willing to accept God's will, so he did send a lying spirit to fuel their false will.

Not exactlly. There was no false will, rather an itching ear to be deceived by a lie. Let's look at context.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

Who was God addressing? The host of heaven--not a lying spirit. And for what purpose? To persuade Ahab to go to battle so that he may die? Why? Because Ahab did refuse to listen to God's prophecy contained in a vision from Micah, the prophet? The passages clearly states that Ahab purposely hated what Micah had to say since it was always a negative sign for Ahab; nevertheless, it was true. Ahab was not interested in hearing the truth of his inquiry; so, God decided to give Ahab what he wanted to hear--a lie--by allowing a lying spirit to cater to his human will. That in no way is proof that God misguides anyone. This falls right in line with what I posted earlier:

Originally Posted by peaceful soul
Agreed! Bushmaster.

A very reasonable question for Muslims is this: If God misguides people, then how can He turn around and then judge them to hell? That is a conflict in God's nature that can't be explained away.

At least, the Bible tells us that God will at some point, allow people to be deceived by what they want to believe. That is, they refuse to obey God in Spirit; so, God allows them their wish. He will not override their personal will to chose what they do. It is not that He does it to them. They do it to themselves.

This concept has very strong parallel in the NT as cited here:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Pay close attention to the part in green.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

The spirit was not summoned by God to deceive anyone. The spirit appeared unto the Lord and requested as seen above. This spirit was not the object of God's calling, rather the "host of heaven" was (verses 20-21).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

God accomodated Ahab's wish--to hear what he wanted to hear at the cost of hearing the truth from God.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, this transpired because they did not accept God's initial guidance, so therefore God had no choice but to misguide them because of the consequence of sin. I was only presented this instance as a reference, and God does misguide people who do not follow His will because ultimately they are only misguiding themselves in the end. Am I right or wrong?

Peace.

Response to your quote highlighted in red: God does have choices. What He choses does not limit his choices. He chooses out of His infinite/eternal wisdom and knowledge.

You have a habit of using bits and pieces of truths and twisting them into your argument. Is this done intentionally or out of ignorance? Your conclusion is wrong as I have shown above. God does not misguide anyone. God is just as much concerned with one's attitude toward His Word as He is with one's actions. God has the authority to grant people their desires of not believing. It is not something that God does on a whim ,but He is wise to know when and how to achieve His will while allowing mankind to continue to exercise their free will, which in many cases, is used to disobey God. For people who don't want to give the Bible a chance to convince them of God's truth, He may do likewise by allowing that individual to feel no more remorse for butchering the Gospel with all kinds of erroneous interpretations. Things like that are a reality for some because they have eternally rejected God.

 

[MercuryAndy]

why do you want to go there? what is it your lacking?

beacuse if i am there maby god will tell me what to do.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

beacuse if i am there maby god will tell me what to do.

I don't understand, haven't your God not communicated or unable to communicate where you are now?

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Do I have to lack something to visit a landmark?

obviously there has to be something lacking when your not welcomed in that landmark by their citizens and your thirst (dictatorship, peace breaker in that land) to visit that landmark.

 

[MercuryAndy]

I don't understand, haven't your God not communicated or unable to communicate where you are now?

no i just thought beacuse it is a holy place then maby i should go there.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

no i just thought beacuse it is a holy place then maby i should go there.

On what ground your justifying it's a holy place for you to be there?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MercuryAndy
Why aren't i allowed in mecca?

Bookofknowledge
Senior Veteran

why do you want to go there? what is it your lacking?

MercuryAndy
Veteran

beacuse if i am there maby god will tell me what to do

Bookofknowledge
Senior Veteran

I don't understand, haven't your God not communicated or unable to communicate where you are now?

MercuryAndy
Veteran

no i just thought beacuse it is a holy place then maby i should go there

Bookofknowledge
Senior Veteran

On what ground your justifying it's a holy place for you to be there?

I got news for both of ya. There is only One Holy Place and one can only enter it through the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb slaughtered from the foundation of the World.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lb/LB1.htm
The Book of the Life of the LAMB!

Hebrew 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight [that] Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.") 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Yeshuwa, the Mediator of the new covenant,

 

[Bookofknowledge]

I got news for both of ya.

It's good to listen now and then... Don't rush.

 

[czach8]

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:


'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

We only pay our respects because the Prophet did so, other than that we do not believe it can help or harm us.

So if the prophet tells you to jump off a bridege, would you do that for him out of respect? Come on now brother. You claim there is no logic in kissing the Trinity, but where is the logic in kissing the stone?

 

[czach8]

Why kissing == idol worshipping?

Once upon a time, Muhammad was sneaking with an idol out of his uncle's house, and when his uncle saw what he was doing, he grabbed his shirt, and the idol fell to the floor smashing into pieces. The uncle and his wife started to cry out claiming the idol had blessed and saved them all these years. Then Muhammad said, "you may have been blessed and saved, but the idol could not save itself from smashing into pieces." This is how Islam began.

Therefore, if the black stone can not kiss you, then why kiss it in the first place? Kiss the Word of God, not some material object that will be forgotten some day.

Don't let tradition fool you, just like how the Quraysh were fooled at one time.

Peace be with you.

 

[czach8]

It depends, if he believes it will help then I believe it is idolatry as it is just a Cross - it cannot harm nor benefit.

Well many Christians kiss the cross which I do not agree with because scripture is what it is. Therefore, consistency in scripture must stand, and kissing the stone is not Quranic whatsoever.

If you're talking about going around the Ka'aba - well it was built by Prophet Abraham along with his son Ishmael. It was first built by Prophet Adam.

And because of this Kaaba, Hagar and Ishmael were blessed with water. If they had a choice between the black stone and water, which one do you think they would pick?

One of the major signs of Judgement Day is that the Ka'aba will be destroyed.

Then why kiss something that will be destroyed? Muhammad said, "why pay homage to an idol if it smashes into pieces once it falls to the floor."

Peace.

 

[MercuryAndy]

Should i break the stone like mohamid did?

 

[czach8]

Not exactlly.

It is either black or white brother, so you should be exact or no exact. You cannot be half exact.

There was no false will, rather an itching ear to be deceived by a lie. Let's look at context.

Let's walk through this scripture because it is quite obvious your only argument is contextual issues, and you are still missing point what the will of God is concerning this chapter.

The king of Israel had the will to fight and conquer Ramoth-Gilead:

I Kings 22:3, "The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?"

Even the king's messenger tried to force his will on the prophet Micaih:

I Kings 22:13 says, "The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably." But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."

And the will of God was contrary to the king's will:

Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "

Now the king was upset that his will was not requested:

The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"

Therefore, the king was not only misguiding himself, but here was setting himself up into more misguiding of himself:

Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'

The spirit offerred to entice the king to fight Ramoth Gilead, but could not do so without the Lord's permission:

I Kings 22:22, 'By what means?' the LORD asked. 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

Therefore, God allowed it, and it was His will to misguide the king further into his false will. The lying spirit was only acting as an agent of the Lord:

I Kings 22:23, " "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

You see brother, a lying spirit has the function to misguide, and it was only through God's permission to allow this to happen. Therefore, God did indeed misguide Ahab.

Who was God addressing? The host of heaven--not a lying spirit.

Is this host a different god or something? I thought God was the host.

And for what purpose? To persuade Ahab to go to battle so that he may die? Why? Because Ahab did refuse to listen to God's prophecy contained in a vision from Micah, the prophet?

Yes, you are right because the king had his own agenda, so God misguided him by fueling his agenda with a lying spirit.

so, God decided to give Ahab what he wanted to hear--a lie--by allowing a lying spirit to cater to his human will.

The act of lying is an act of misguiding. Come on now brother, you know that. Let's stop beating around the bush.

but had pleasure in unrighteousness

.Pay close attention to the part in green.

Ok so what is your point?

The spirit was not summoned by God to deceive anyone. The spirit appeared unto the Lord and requested as seen above. This spirit was not the object of God's calling, rather the "host of heaven" was (verses 20-21).

So are you saying the spirit can do whatever it wants without God's permission?

God accomodated Ahab's wish--to hear what he wanted to hear at the cost of hearing the truth from God.

So therefore you said it yourself. God accomodated him by the act of misguiding.

Response to your quote highlighted in red: God does have choices.

But you just contradicted yourself above when you say, "This spirit was not the object of God's calling, rather the "host of heaven" was". Does God have no choice but to accept this?

You have a habit of using bits and pieces of truths and twisting them into your argument.

It says what it says:

I Kings 22:23, " "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

The Word of God does not have grey areas as you claim.

Is this done intentionally or out of ignorance?

Are you giving me a choice here? Hmmmmmm.

Your conclusion is wrong as I have shown above.

Your conclusions are based on twisted contextual recourse which is ultimately your own interpretation. You know what, simply confute what I wrote above, then we shall see where our debate stands.

God does not misguide anyone.

Are you sure about that. Then can you explain the verses below:

Gen 11:5-9 says, "But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." 8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth."

Do consider to confuse can also mean to misguide?

Gen 22:1-2 says, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2: And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

I Cor 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Now I do understand the contexts of both these chapter, but do you consider tempting as an act of misguiding?

For people who don't want to give the Bible a chance to convince them of God's truth, He may do likewise by allowing that individual to feel no more remorse for butchering the Gospel with all kinds of erroneous interpretations.

It is quite obvious brother that you are trying to play God because the bottom line is anyone who has an interpretion that does not agree with your interpreation will easily be condemned by you.

Things like that are a reality for some because they have eternally rejected God.

You see what I mean. God bless you brother.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Once upon a time, Muhammad was sneaking with an idol out of his uncle's house, and when his uncle saw what he was doing, he grabbed his shirt, and the idol fell to the floor smashing into pieces. The uncle and his wife started to cry out claiming the idol had blessed and saved them all these years. Then Muhammad said, "you may have been blessed and saved, but the idol could not save itself from smashing into pieces." This is how Islam began.

Therefore, if the black stone can not kiss you, then why kiss it in the first place? Kiss the Word of God, not some material object that will be forgotten some day.

Don't let tradition fool you, just like how the Quraysh were fooled at one time.

Peace be with you.

The story you have mentioned is not correct because this instance doesn't include Muhammad (SAW)

 

[Arthra]

That story about smashing idols sounds I think like the one about Abraham in Qur'an:

http://www.islam4theworld.com/messengers/ibrahim_a.htm

and is told in Midrash as
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_abrahamidols.htm

The father of Prophet Muhammad, Abdullah died when the Prophet was an infant so He was raised by His uncle.

The Kaaba stone was venerated as a place of pilgrimage long before Prophet Muhammad and is similar I think to the stone used by Jacob and called by him "Beth El" mentioned in Genesis.

- Art