Mecca?

[Raul7]

I wonder if this understanding has an islamic background but i think non-muslims should be allowed to visit makkah and kaba because we let them enter mosques here...

Yes, but the Sacred [Holy] Mosque is different.

Similarly, the Holy's of Holy's that belonged to the Jews, before it was destroyed, was only open to Jews.

Anyways, there are plenty of people who snuck in into the Sacred Mosque. Even look it up on Wikipedia.

 

[czach8]

Nope, that is not what I meant. What I am trying to say is that it would be to your advantage and to the Muslim readers here, that you understand the fundamentals of islamic belief before picking random verses from the hadith.

Actually come to think of it, you are right. An active Muslim on this forum has already concluded all Hadiths are false, and he himself understands the fundamentals of Islam. Unless you think he does not?

Again, why do you say I should understand Islamic fundamentals, when you yourself do not explain Islamic fundamentals? Let me ask you this. Is it ok when Christians kiss the cross?

The above is one fine example. If you had understood what we meant by associating other things with God (shirk) you would have no problem understanding why if you have a proper niat circumbulating or facing the kaaba during prayer is never idol worshipping to us.

However, you and I know if the kabba is destroyed or lost, it would make no difference in one's elevation of faith.

 

[Raul7]

Let me ask you this. Is it ok when Christians kiss the cross?

It depends, if he believes it will help then I believe it is idolatry as it is just a Cross - it cannot harm nor benefit.

If you read Umar Ibn-Il-Khatab's hadith that I posted, he already stated the only reason he kissed the black rock is out of respect for the Prophet. Not out of belief that it will benefit him or grant him Paradise.

If you're talking about going around the Ka'aba - well it was built by Prophet Abraham along with his son Ishmael. It was first built by Prophet Adam.

I suggest you read these two articles to get an idea of why Muslims do what they do at Mecca-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj#Non-Muslims_in_Mecca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al_Haram

However, you and I know if the kabba is destroyed or lost, it would make no difference in one's elevation of faith.

One of the major signs of Judgement Day is that the Ka'aba will be destroyed.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

One of the major signs of Judgement Day is that the Ka'aba will be destroyed.

Not necessarily... Yes it would bring war immediately, but this war would not mean the day of judgement is here.

 

[Raul7]

Not necessarily... Yes it would bring war immediately, but this war would not mean the day of judgement is here.

No, it's not the only sign; but it's one of the major ones. Jesus's second-coming is another, the sun rising in the West, etc.

 

[TweetyBaby]

Well we try to guide non-Muslims to show them the Truth. Then it is up to God to guide him and open his eyes to see it. A human can only do so little, it is up to God to do the rest.

But if you really love God, why would you befriend those who deny His existence or even worse mock your beliefs? Do you still befriend those who mock your mother and father? I assume not, now how about those that mock your Creator?

if they dont believe in god then thats their problem at the end of the world but i try to help them know god through my actions and my love. i wont talk to people who mock my belief intentionally because thats hatred and i dont like people who hate. even the most hateful of people can come to love god so who are we to judge them and ignore them? hate cannot breed love.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

the sun rising in the West, etc.

The sun from the West is the interpretation of islamists that an islamic state will rise from the West. You believe God is mighty to stop the planetary rotation of the Earth and reverse it in order to what you think happen, but He can't become man so we can become holy...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Well we try to guide non-Muslims to show them the Truth.

That is the "truth" perceived by you unfortunately. Because if then it is up to God to guide him and open his eyes to see it, there is no reason for you to say, He will misguide him also. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[MercuryAndy]

No, it's not the only sign; but it's one of the major ones. Jesus's second-coming is another, the sun rising in the West, etc.

but the sun rises in the south east...

Maby the cube wouldnt be destroyed if you let people see it.

 

[Raul7]

The sun from the West is the interpretation of islamists that an islamic state will rise from the West. You believe God is mighty to stop the planetary rotation of the Earth and reverse it in order to what you think happen, but He can't become man so we can become holy...

No, it will rise in the West.

Narrated Abu Huraira:


Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the sun rises from the West: and when the people see it, then whoever will be living on the surface of the earth will have faith (in God), and that is (the time) when no good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before." Then he recited the verse (Quran 6:158)


What is that (bold) supposed to mean?

 

[Raul7]

That is the "truth" perceived by you unfortunately. Because if then it is up to God to guide him and open his eyes to see it, there is no reason for you to say, He will misguide him also. It just doesn't make sense.

Read this verse-

God is not ashamed to make an example of a mosquito or of an even smaller thing. As for those who believe, they know it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What does God mean by this example?" He misguides many by it and guides many by it. But He only misguides the deviators. (Qur'an, 2:26)

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

No, it will rise in the West.

Narrated Abu Huraira:


Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the sun rises from the West: and when the people see it, then whoever will be living on the surface of the earth will have faith (in God), and that is (the time) when no good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before." Then he recited the verse (Quran 6:158)


What is that (bold) supposed to mean?

Ok I read the hadith, nothing compels me to think that it is the physical sun of our solar system is going to be rising from the opposite side. It might as well be interpreted as an "islamic nation" in the west which muslims themselves interpreted that way, where did I learn it from do you think?

"Bold" supposed to mean a lot but you nevermind.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

As for those who believe, they know it is the truth from their Lord.

Is your "Lord" Allah? We say the same thing of our truth. The problem is God does NOT misguide in an effort, people themselves do that.

 

[peaceful soul]

Is your "Lord" Allah? We say the same thing of our truth. The problem is God does NOT misguide in an effort, people themselves do that.

Agreed! Bushmaster.

A very reasonable question for Muslims is this: If God misguides people, then how can He turn around and then judge them to hell? That is a conflict in God's nature that can't be explained away.

At least, the Bible tells us that God will at some point, allow people to be deceived by what they want to believe. That is, they refuse to obey God in Spirit; so, God allows them their wish. He will not override their personal will to chose what they do. It is not that He does it to them. They do it to themselves.

 

[Raul7]

Agreed! Bushmaster.

A very reasonable question for Muslims is this: If God misguides people, then how can He turn around and then judge them to hell? That is a conflict in God's nature that can't be explained away.

At least, the Bible tells us that God will at some point, allow people to be deceived by what they want to believe. That is, they refuse to obey God in Spirit; so, God allows them their wish. He will not override their personal will to chose what they do. It is not that He does it to them. They do it to themselves.

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). (Quran 2:6-7)

There are certain people are destined for Hell. God's promise is True, he will fill Hellfire with both men and jinn together.

Further explaining Decreed Destiny.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 546: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:
Allah's Apostle the true and truly inspired, narrated to us, "The creation of everyone of you starts with the process of collecting the material for his body within forty days and forty nights in the womb of his mother. Then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period (40 days) and then he becomes like a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then an angel is sent to him (by Allah) and the angel is allowed (ordered) to write four things; his livelihood, his (date of) death, his deeds, and whether he will be a wretched one or a blessed one (in the Hereafter) and then the soul is breathed into him. So one of you may do (good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise so much that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Paradise but then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) and (ultimately) enters Hell (Fire); and one of you may do (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) so much so that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Hell (Fire), then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and ultimately) enters Paradise."

 

[peaceful soul]

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). (Quran 2:6-7)

There are certain people are destined for Hell. God's promise is True, he will fill Hellfire with both men and jinn together.

Further explaining Decreed Destiny.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 546: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:
Allah's Apostle the true and truly inspired, narrated to us, "The creation of everyone of you starts with the process of collecting the material for his body within forty days and forty nights in the womb of his mother. Then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period (40 days) and then he becomes like a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then an angel is sent to him (by Allah) and the angel is allowed (ordered) to write four things; his livelihood, his (date of) death, his deeds, and whether he will be a wretched one or a blessed one (in the Hereafter) and then the soul is breathed into him. So one of you may do (good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise so much that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Paradise but then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) and (ultimately) enters Hell (Fire); and one of you may do (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) so much so that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Hell (Fire), then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and ultimately) enters Paradise."

The questions still remain. Is it Allah or the people themselves that misguide. If Allah plays an act in their misguided ways, then Allah is simultaneously responsible for them going to hell. It would not be the individual's choice. In that case, Allah is contradicting his own standards. God does not guide people to do wrong. That is inconsistent with God's nature. If that is the case, then Allah has no ground upon which to condemn them in the first place since it is not their doing that they went the wrong path. Do you understand?

 

[Islam_mulia]

The issue of Allah 'guides' and 'misguides' whom He wills can be explained as follows:

1. "Yet he who spends on others and is righteous and affirms goodness, We shall ease the way of fortune for him. But he who does not spend and is unconcerned and rejects goodness, for him We shall ease the way of adversity." (92: 5-10)

Note, the Arabic words used taysir (task made easier) and imhal (temporary relief allowed) respectively for the treatment meted out to the two categories of individuals.

God says that if you are really honest in doing good work, God will guide you to the right path. If you insists on doing bad things, despite the revelations that have come to you, then God will make misguidance easier for you.

2. For those who chose to purposely block the truth and prevents others from knowing the truth, God sealed their hearts (misguides them):

"When the hypocrites come to you, they say, 'We confirm that you are the messenger of Allah.' Allah indeed knows you are His messenger. Allah bears witness that hypocrites are indeed liars. They have made their oaths a shield, thus they obstruct others from the way of Allah. It is certainly evil what they do. That is because they came to believe, and then disbelieved, so their hearts were sealed and now they do not understand." (63:1-3)

and

"... raised a barrier in front of them and a barrier behind them, and have covered them over so that they are not able to see (the truth). Whether you warn them or do not warn them, it is all the same; they will not believe." (36:9-10)

3. The point is, everyone must make a choice. The Quran says:

"There is no compulsion in religion. Distinct is the way of guidance from error. He who turns away from the forces of evil and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah hears all and knows everything. Allah becomes the Protecting Friend of those who (want to) believe. He brings them out of darkness (of ignorance) into light (of truth). As for those who (want to) disbelieve, forces of evil are allowed to become their patrons. Such are rightful owners of fire. They will abide therein." (2:256-7)

 

[Raul7]

Then what about the Hadith I posted? I heard it in Arabic too, there is no mistranslation.

 

[czach8]

Agreed! Bushmaster.

A very reasonable question for Muslims is this: If God misguides people, then how can He turn around and then judge them to hell? That is a conflict in God's nature that can't be explained away.

At least, the Bible tells us that God will at some point, allow people to be deceived by what they want to believe. That is, they refuse to obey God in Spirit; so, God allows them their wish. He will not override their personal will to chose what they do. It is not that He does it to them. They do it to themselves.

Actually you are wrong, brother. God has been known to cast lying spirits. For instance:

I Kings 22:22-23 says, 'By what means?' the LORD asked. 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

This is proof God has misguided people. Peace.

 

[MercuryAndy]

The issue of Allah 'guides' and 'misguides' whom He wills can be explained as follows:

1. "Yet he who spends on others and is righteous and affirms goodness, We shall ease the way of fortune for him. But he who does not spend and is unconcerned and rejects goodness, for him We shall ease the way of adversity." (92: 5-10)

Note, the Arabic words used taysir (task made easier) and imhal (temporary relief allowed) respectively for the treatment meted out to the two categories of individuals.

God says that if you are really honest in doing good work, God will guide you to the right path. If you insists on doing bad things, despite the revelations that have come to you, then God will make misguidance easier for you.

2. For those who chose to purposely block the truth and prevents others from knowing the truth, God sealed their hearts (misguides them):

"When the hypocrites come to you, they say, 'We confirm that you are the messenger of Allah.' Allah indeed knows you are His messenger. Allah bears witness that hypocrites are indeed liars. They have made their oaths a shield, thus they obstruct others from the way of Allah. It is certainly evil what they do. That is because they came to believe, and then disbelieved, so their hearts were sealed and now they do not understand." (63:1-3)

and

"... raised a barrier in front of them and a barrier behind them, and have covered them over so that they are not able to see (the truth). Whether you warn them or do not warn them, it is all the same; they will not believe." (36:9-10)

3. The point is, everyone must make a choice. The Quran says:

"There is no compulsion in religion. Distinct is the way of guidance from error. He who turns away from the forces of evil and believes in Allah has grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah hears all and knows everything. Allah becomes the Protecting Friend of those who (want to) believe. He brings them out of darkness (of ignorance) into light (of truth). As for those who (want to) disbelieve, forces of evil are allowed to become their patrons. Such are rightful owners of fire. They will abide therein." (2:256-7)

So the walls of mecca are like the barrier of the hypocrites and i should knock it down?