Meaingless words in the Koran

[Avelina777]

Montalban

If you ignore acronyms, would rest of the Koran be clear to you?

-

Would it be clear to you, do you have the supposed gift to understand it?

 

[Montalban]

That is one theory; perhaps it is that the semitic languages are more closely linked to the earliest expressions for "God".

But Hebrew isn't, because you can understand the OT without having to learn it

 

[steve_bakr]

That is the topic. I should know. I started the thread. I should know

The meaningless words in the Koran seem to be proof the Koran is not clear

There are no meaningless words in the Quran. The groups of letters that you refer to--such as alif lam mim at the beginning of Sura Al- Baqara--are not words. There are no words in the Quran that don't have a meaning.

 

[Montalban]

There are no meaningless words in the Quran. The groups of letters that you refer to--such as alif lam mim at the beginning of Sura Al- Baqara--are not words. There are no words in the Quran that don't have a meaning.

Do you have any evidence for this? I cited an Islamic site that disagrees with what your opinion.

 

[Delphiki]

But Hebrew isn't, because you can understand the OT without having to learn it

So, in Genesis, it should be unanimously agreed among all Christians what it means by "day", correct? It's translated from the word "yom" in Hebrew. How about we start asking your fellow Christians if creation happened in 6 literal days or 6 days as in eras? Sound fair?

I bet all Christians also agree on things like baptism, circumcision, the Sabbath, and which commandments are which number, am I right? I'm not? Go figure.

 

[steve_bakr]

Do you have any evidence for this? I cited an Islamic site that disagrees with what your opinion.

I have already cited for you the website corpus.quran.com which provides the meaning for every word in the Quran.

 

[Montalban]

So, in Genesis, it should be unanimously agreed among all Christians what it means by "day", correct? It's translated from the word "yom" in Hebrew. How about we start asking your fellow Christians if creation happened in 6 literal days or 6 days as in eras? Sound fair?.

How's that relate to the present discussion?

Is it 'clearer' in Hebrew?

 

[Montalban]

I have already cited for you the website corpus.quran.com which provides the meaning for every word in the Quran.

What is the meaning they give for those words?

 

[Malley]

The irrational hate towards Christianity helps confirm my opinion of its truth.

I don't mean to drag up ten day old posts.

But I thought it was worthy of mention that if you change "Christianity" to "Islam" millions of Muslims hold the exact same opinion.

This is hardly a proof of anything, merely something possibly worth noting.

 

[Montalban]

I don't mean to drag up ten day old posts.

That's not all that old, as far as posts go.

But I thought it was worthy of mention that if you change "Christianity" to "Islam" millions of Muslims hold the exact same opinion.

Thanks for the innuendo at tu quoque

This is hardly a proof of anything, merely something possibly worth noting.

You missed the opening posts. It's Islam's claim that the Koran is 'clear'. It can't be 'clear' if there's words that have no meaning.

 

[Malley]

That's not all that old, as far as posts go.

Thanks for the innuendo at tu quoque


You missed the opening posts. It's Islam's claim that the Koran is 'clear'. It can't be 'clear' if there's words that have no meaning.

When Muslims says "The Qur'an is clear" we infer as to the central moral and practical message and theme within, which is exceptionally clear
Not that every bit of it understood as clear as a clean window.

At least that's how I have always been taught it, understood it, and teach it myself.

As you have Christians who poorly present Theological concepts or matters of faith, I have little doubt(in fact I have met many) Muslims do the same.

 

[Montalban]

When Muslims says "The Qur'an is clear" we infer as to the central moral and practical message and theme within, which is exceptionally clear
Not that every bit of it understood as clear as a clean window.

At least that's how I have always been taught it, understood it, and teach it myself.

As you have Christians who poorly present Theological concepts or matters of faith, I have little doubt(in fact I have met many) Muslims do the same.

When Moslems say it is clear they say it's the clear will of al-Lah that can be understood by all men (in Arabic).

This is opposed by the very fact there's words in it not understood

 

[Malley]

When Moslems say it is clear they say it's the clear will of al-Lah that can be understood by all men (in Arabic).

This is opposed by the very fact there's words in it not understood

And it is, what is not clear about "Worship One God" "Pray" "Fast" "Be righteous, commit no sin"? at it's core, that is Islam and that is the "Clear Message" contained within the Qur'an, there are aspects that are mysterious and not fully understood , in the same way that there are things not fully understood in the Torah or NT.

Not to turn on the offensive, but would you say the Bible is a clear text?
Or does it contain mystery?

 

[Montalban]

And it is, what is not clear about "Worship One God" "Pray" "Fast" "Be righteous, commit no sin"? at it's core, that is Islam and that is the "Clear Message" contained within the Qur'an,

That's not the argument.

Not to turn on the offensive, but would you say the Bible is a clear text?
Or does it contain mystery?

Start a thread

 

[Malley]

That's not the argument.

It's the argument I have known it most of my life.
I work in Islamic Apologetics/Dawah and it's how ive seen it presented by collegues, and present it myself.

Perhaps you have simply talked with Muslims with a varying view of what the phrase entails?
Kind of like when Atheists don't understand what Omnipotence means -_-.

Start a thread

I would, but im not allowed.
There is no appropriate forums for starting threads Questioning Christian Text or Theology, that are not "Christian Only".
Besides I didn't join the forum to bash at Christian Theology I could do that anywhere, and it's not an interest of mine.

I was simply seeking to draw and understandable parlell, there are some bits of the Qur'an that are Mystic, in the same way that there are many Mystic OT prophecies, and the same way that Revelations is about as clear as a foggy mirror.

 

[Montalban]

It's the argument I have known it most of my life.
I work in Islamic Apologetics/Dawah and it's how ive seen it presented by collegues, and present it myself.

I've also evidenced that Moslems say that they 'can' know what these words mean

Perhaps you have simply talked with Muslims with a varying view of what the phrase entails?
Kind of like when Atheists don't understand what Omnipotence means -_-.

That's a poor analogy.

You're saying Moslems not understanding their own faith is like people of no faith not understanding a faith issue.

I would, but im not allowed.

You're allowed to start threads

You can ask here or General Theology

 

[steve_bakr]

Once again, the "meaningless words" that I think you are referring to are not words, but Arabic letters placed at the beginning of some suras, such as alif lam mim at the beginning of Al-Baqara.

 

[Montalban]

Once again, the "meaningless words" that I think you are referring to are not words, but Arabic letters placed at the beginning of some suras, such as alif lam mim at the beginning of Al-Baqara.

You've still not told me what they mean.

You've twice directed me to a site that might have the meaning, but is in effect you directing me to do the research for you - perhaps because you don't have an answer?

 

[steve_bakr]

You've still not told me what they mean.

You've twice directed me to a site that might have the meaning, but is in effect you directing me to do the research for you - perhaps because you don't have an answer?

Jeez, it's only a mouseclick, and I am referring to actual words, not the Arabic letters. My objection is that you are depicting them as words.. As far as their meanings are concerned, Yusuf Ali writes about them in his commentary. He gives them a mystical significance, but he does say it is not necessarily profitable for the average person to get caught up in what they mean.

I am surprised you won't even bother to check out the site I gave you from the Leeds University School of Computing, if you have an interest in the Quran, as you seem to. It has a full grammatical breakdown of every word in the Quran, along with color-coded Arabic script, transliteration, and English meaning. It also contains an Audio section with dozens of major reciters. For those who are interested it is http://corpus.quran.com/

 

[Montalban]

Jeez, it's only a mouseclick,

I take it then you still don't have any evidence.