Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

[Hammster]

The verse clearly points out the only ones that qualify to be a sheep are those that CONDITIONALLY have a present tense 'hearing' and 'following'.

Actually, hearing and following are characteristics of sheep, not qualifications to become sheep. No one becomes a sheep.

 

[Butterball1]

Too bad that you don’t know the answer, especially since you were so close. So I’ll help.


The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:24-29

Notice what He says about the sheep given to Him by His Father. “they will never perish”

I just addressed John 10:28-29 which REFUTES OSAS.

Those who are Christ's sheep are the ones that shall not perish or be snatched from God's hand.

Can anyone UNconditionally be a sheep of Christ? NO! Only those who have a PRESENT TENSE believing and following Christ qualify as a sheep of Christ. Meaning those who quit hearing and following Christ no longer are His sheep and do become lost.

You conveniently left out the conditions of being Christ's sheep, that being, a continual hearing and following. One CANNOT a sheep of Christ no matter how the Christian lives for if the Christian quits hearing and following Christ he will for certain fall away. Nothing says it is impossible for one to quit hearing and following.

 

[Butterball1]

Actually, hearing and following are characteristics of sheep, not qualifications to become sheep. No one becomes a sheep.

Hearing and following are necessary, required, mandated conditions, qualifications, characteristics to be a sheep of Christ for there is no such thing as a sheep of Christ that does not hear and follow Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Hearing and following are necessary, required, mandated conditions, qualifications, characteristics to be a sheep of Christ for there is no such thing as a sheep of Christ that does not hear and follow Christ.

Characteristics, yes. But nothing about qualifications. And I’ll show you why.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If you were correct, He would have said that they are not His sheep because they did not believe. Believing is contingent upon being a sheep. There’s no scripture anywhere that states that you become a sheep, or that you stop being one.

 

[Clare73]

These Scriptures remain unaddressed specfically, being true to their text:
Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)
Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

We'll continue the discussion when you do.

Those verses in John 6vhave been addressed MULTIPLE times... see John 6:40 with the present tense and subjunctive mood. I just dealt with John 10:28-29 where these verses REFUTE OSAS. Here is what I posted earlier on it:

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto "them" eternal life; and "they" shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Who is the "them" that will be given eternal life and the "they" that shall never perish? Just anyone UNconditionally? No! Those that are Christ sheep. Can anyone be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally? No!
The verse clearly points out the only ones that qualify to be a sheep are those that CONDITIONALLY have a present tense 'hearing' and 'following'.

So when Christ said "my sheep" that specifically refers to only those that continually hear and follow Him. And it is only these sheep they continually hear and follow Christ that make up the pronouns "they" and "them" of verse 28. Those that quit hearing and following no longer meet the necessary qualifications to be of Christ sheep. They have removed themselves from God's hand losing the promise of eternal life for failing to continue to meet the necessary qualifications to be a sheep of Christ.

Men hear and follow by their own volition therefore can stop hearing and following by that same volition. Nothing says it is impossible for one to stop hearing and following nor if one quits he "never really" heard and followed.

Except for the texts in my post above.

Please give the post # where those three specific verses are specifically addressed.

 

[Butterball1]

Characteristics, yes. But nothing about qualifications. And I’ll show you why.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

If you were correct, He would have said that they are not His sheep because they did not believe. Believing is contingent upon being a sheep. There’s no scripture anywhere that states that you become a sheep, or that you stop being one.

qualify - "be entitled to a particular benefit or privilege by fulfilling a necessary condition....
become officially recognized as a practitioner of a particular profession or activity by satisfying the relevant conditions or requirements..."

Those who will not hear and follow Christ do not qualify to be a sheep for they have not fulfilled the necessary condition, have not satisfied the requirements of hearing and following Christ.

So those that refuse to hear and follow and those that quit hearing and following are not of the "they" and "them" of John 10:28.

 

[Butterball1]

Except for the texts in my post above.

Please give the post # where those three specific verses are specifically addressed.

74, 88, 95, 96

 

[Hammster]

qualify - "be entitled to a particular benefit or privilege by fulfilling a necessary condition....
become officially recognized as a practitioner of a particular profession or activity by satisfying the relevant conditions or requirements..."

Those who will not hear and follow Christ do not qualify to be a sheep for they have not fulfilled the necessary condition, have not satisfied the requirements of hearing and following Christ.

So those that refuse to hear and follow and those that quit hearing and following are not of the "they" and "them" of John 10:28.

Your are forcing this into the text. So let’s try this. In John 10:26, why do the Jews not believe?

 

[Clare73]

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)
Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

74, 88, 95, 96

Thanks. . .

And in one of those four posts, I find one verse of the above, John 6:37, supposedly addressed by John 6:35, which states nothing in disagreement with John 6:37.

None of the verses I have presented above have been shown by you to mean anything other than what is clearly stated in them and, therefore, still stand as refutation of your assertion that true faith can fall away (apostasize).

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation by being obedient to God's will for all the disobedient will be lost for certain.

Not a huge problem for the transformed mind.

 

[Butterball1]

Thanks. . .

And in one of those four posts, I find one verse of the above, John 6:37, supposedly addressed by John 6:35, which states nothing in disagreement with John 6:37.

None of the verses I have presented above have been shown by you to mean anything other than what is clearly stated in them and, therefore, still stand as refutation of your assertion that true faith can fall away (apostasize).

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The ones the Father gives to Christ are the one who believe per verse 35.

The phrase "I will in no wise cast out" means those who believe that God gives to Christ, Christ will not turn any away regardless of race, sex, ethnicity, social status, etc. It does NOT mean they cannot be lost under any circumstance. Even Calvinst Albert Barnes says of this verse:
"Cast out - Reject, or refuse to save. This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him."

EDIT: The fact Barnes says "Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to Him" puts a dent and ding in the Calvinistic false ideas of limited atonement

 

[Butterball1]

Your are forcing this into the text. So let’s try this. In John 10:26, why do the Jews not believe?

The context is very clear that one cannot be a sheep of Christ if he does not have an present tesne, ongoing sustained hearing and following.

Go back in the context to John 8. Here when Jesus began this discourse with the Jews those Jews did believe, John 8:30-31. Yet they did not abide in Christ's words but took exception to the words Jesus spake to them. Hence they remained in bondage and not set free per John 8:32.

John 10:26 does NOT mean one is a sheep before one believes for that idea contradicts many passages as John 10:27-28.
Again, in John 8 those Jews believed but then took exception to Jesus words about them being in bondage. Those Jews claimed they were never in bondage "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"

To which Christ said "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

They (Jews) answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham....Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they (Jews) to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me...Ye are of your father the devil...."

So the CONTEXT is the Jews are arguring that they are of God and Jesus tells them they are not of God but the devil is their father.

In giving proof those Jews were not of God as they claimed Jesus tells them John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jesus spake the truth to these Jews and they could not deny it (v46) but the Jews were unwilling to hear God's words and not obey was proof they were not of God as they claimed.

Fastforward to context in question John 10:26:
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Once again Jesus is proving these Jews were not of God as they claimed as Jesus proved it in John 8:47. If those Jews were of God as they claimed they were back in John 8:41 they would have believed Christ's words and obeyed those words. The fact they did not continue in Christ words was proof they were not of His sheep therefore not of God as they claimed. So their not being sheep was not the cause of their unbelief but their not being sheep was PROOF of their unbelief therefore PROOF they were not of God as they claimed.

Jesus is not teaching Calvinism in this verse but is providing proof those Jews were not of God as they claimed. For if those Jews did believe God and were of God as they claimed then they would have accepted and obeyed Christ's words and been of His sheep. The fact they were not of His sheep is PROOF they did not believe God therefore not of God as they claimed.

 

[Hammster]

The context is very clear that one cannot be a sheep of Christ if he does not have an present tesne, ongoing sustained hearing and following.

Go back in the context to John 8. Here when Jesus began this discourse with the Jews those Jews did believe, John 8:30-31. Yet they did not abide in Christ's words but took exception to the words Jesus spake to them. Hence they remained in bondage and not set free per John 8:32.

John 10:26 does NOT mean one is a sheep before one believes for that idea contradicts many passages as John 10:27-28.
Again, in John 8 those Jews believed but then took exception to Jesus words about them being in bondage. Those Jews claimed they were never in bondage "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"

To which Christ said "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

They (Jews) answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham....Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they (Jews) to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me...Ye are of your father the devil...."

So the CONTEXT is the Jews are arguring that they are of God and Jesus tells them they are not of God but the devil is their father.

In giving proof those Jews were not of God as they claimed Jesus tells them John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jesus spake the truth to these Jews and they could not deny it (v46) but the Jews were unwilling to hear God's words and not obey was proof they were not of God as they claimed.

Fastforward to context in question John 10:26:
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." Once again Jesus is proving these Jews were not of God as they claimed as Jesus proved it in John 8:47. If those Jews were of God as they claimed they were back in John 8:41 they would have believed Christ's words and obeyed those words. The fact they did not continue in Christ words was proof they were not of His sheep therefore not of God as they claimed. So their not being sheep was not the cause of their unbelief but their not being sheep was PROOF of their unbelief therefore PROOF they were not of God as they claimed.

Jesus is not teaching Calvinism in this verse but is providing proof those Jews were not of God as they claimed. For if those Jews did believe God and were of God as they claimed then they would have accepted and obeyed Christ's words and been of His sheep. The fact they were not of His sheep is PROOF they did not believe God therefore not of God as they claimed.

I’m trying to figure out why I can’t seem to get a straight answer from you, especially when the text gives a clear answer to my question. Instead, you have to do everything but answer in order to promote your view.

So, I will leave you with trying to prove your worthiness to Christ. I will rest in the protection of my Shepherd, the one who loses no sheep given to Him by His Father.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Salvation is not moneergistic or unconditional. Man has a role in his own salvation (Acts of the Apostles 2:40; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Corinthians 7:1; etc). Salvation requires that man CONDTIONALLY believe and CONDITITION CONTINUE to believe unto death.

So you propose works salvation. For this, you have something for which to boast.

Romans 10:17 there is no guarantee that a man who hears God word will even have faith. And those that do hear and have faith there is no guarantee they will continue to have faith. Men believe of their own volition therefore can stop believing by that same volition. God has NEVER put any responsibility or onus upon Himself to see to it that the believer will "persevere" therefore be impossible to fall from faith.
Instead God has put the responsibility upon the believer to keep himself in the faith:

I challenge you to show where any of that counters what Calvinism and Reformed Theology teach. They do not. We not only admit we must work to keep ourselves faithful, in the faith, repentant, and obedient --we DEMAND it. But as one dear brother on CF has acknowledged, in his own life it shows that any good thing he has done or accomplished is the work of God after all.

So in your narrative, faith, salvific and otherwise, is all of a kind, and is man-produced, not the gift of God, not the Spirit within. OK, lots of luck with that!

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 Coritnians 9:27 "But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified"

Jude 1:24 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

It's the Christians role and responsibility (not God's) in his own salvation to examone himself, to give diligence, discipline himself, to keep himself.

1 Coritnians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain"

Those Christians who do not examine themselves, do not give diligence, do not discipline themselves, etc will fall from faith and become lost therefore they would have "believed in vain". A person who had never been saved/never really believed cannot have beleived in vain for they never have believed.

So the issue is NOT about those who never believed, were never saved but about those who actually did believe, saved but fall away therefore believed in vain.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24. Again, if the Christian does not allow the word of God CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE within him whereby the Christian does not CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE to believe.....he will fall away, he will NOT continue in Christ.

I don't know if you have noticed the phrase, "it is impossible" at the beginning of that whole discourse, in Hebrews 6.

 

[Butterball1]

So you propose works salvation. For this, you have something

The Bible for a fact teaches one must obey the will of God in order for one to receive the free gift of justification/salvation. There are many examples, OT and NT alike, of men obeying God;s will in order to receive God's free gift yet not the first time is it said their obeidnt work earned God's free gift. Reason being meeting the precondition placed upon a free gift, as salvation, does not/cannot earn the free gift being offered.

I challenge you to show where any of that counters what Calvinism and Reformed Theology teach. They do not. We not only admit we must work to keep ourselves faithful, in the faith, repentant, and obedient --we DEMAND it. But as one dear brother on CF has acknowledged, in his own life it shows that any good thing he has done or accomplished is the work of God after all.

So in your narrative, faith, salvific and otherwise, is all of a kind, and is man-produced, not the gift of God, not the Spirit within OK, lots of luck with that!

It does not matter what Calvinists demand or what any man demands. All that matters is what God demands and He demands Christians be faithful unto death if those Christians have any desire to be saved. So Christians being faithful, having good works, etc., are not just an good idea or an option but necessary requirements without which the Christian cannot be saved. Again, God never placed any onus, responsibility upon Himself to see to it that the Christian 'perseveres' but put that responsibility upon the Christian.

Salvation is a gift of God but receiving that gift is not monergistic or unconditional.

 

[Butterball1]

I’m trying to figure out why I can’t seem to get a straight answer from you, especially when the text gives a clear answer to my question. Instead, you have to do everything but answer in order to promote your view.

So, I will leave you with trying to prove your worthiness to Christ. I will rest in the protection of my Shepherd, the one who loses no sheep given to Him by His Father.

I have answered every question you asked me, I even played along with your little word games. Just because I do not answer questions in the way you like does not mean I have not answered your questions.

Example, earlier in playing your word games you kept asking me does God give "sheep" to Christ. Yet you never defined what you mean by the word "sheep". So in answering your question, I defined how the Bible defines who is and who is not a sheep. I did this for I knew all along you would define "sheep" differently and that John 10:26 would be your attempt to prove one is a sheep BEFORE one even believes in order to try and get around John 10:27 that requires belief in order to be a sheep. I have dealt with Calvinists for years, this isn't my first rodeo and I know how they love to play their little word games. I took the time to demonstrate and give a 'straight answer' in showing that John 10:26 does NOT teach Calvinism. I gave more answer than what you would like for me to give.

 

[Butterball1]

no post

 

[Hammster]

I have answered every question you asked me, I even played along with your little word games. Just because I do not answer questions in the way you like does not mean I have not answered your questions.

Example, earlier in playing your word games you kept asking me does God give "sheep" to Christ. Yet you never defined what you mean by the word "sheep". So in answering your question, I defined how the Bible defines who is and who is not a sheep. I did this for I knew all along you would define "sheep" differently and that John 10:26 would be your attempt to prove one is a sheep BEFORE one even believes in order to try and get around John 10:27 that requires belief in order to be a sheep. I have dealt with Calvinists for years, this isn't my first rodeo and I know how they love to play their little word games. I took the time to demonstrate and give a 'straight answer' in showing that John 10:26 does NOT teach Calvinism. I gave more answer than what you would like for me to give.

The question was a simple yes or no. Does the Father give sheep to the Son.


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

The answer is yes, He does. The takeaway is that the Son loses none of the sheep given to Him by His Father. That would divide the Trinity if He did.

And the follow up is, does Christ intercede for us to the Father? Does Christ pray to the Father on our behalf? And if He does, does the Father ever say no to His Son?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible for a fact teaches one must obey the will of God in order for one to receive the free gift of justification/salvation.

Demonstrate this sequence. And if the many are much alike don't fill up the page. We've been through this before.

You are proposing works-based grace --self-contradictory, to put it nicely.

Reason being meeting the precondition placed upon a free gift, as salvation, does not/cannot earn the free gift being offered.

Still contradicting yourself. The precondition you assess as what grace is conditioned on shows earned grace.

It does not matter what Calvinists demand or what any man demands. All that matters is what God demands and He demands Christians be faithful unto death if those Christians have any desire to be saved. So Christians being faithful, having good works, etc., are not just an good idea or an option but necessary requirements without which the Christian cannot be saved.

I only said that because we have, after all, been arguing for/ against Calvinism, whether you recognized it as such or not. The reason I said it demands obedience, faithfulness etc is because it does not deny the verses you showed. Thus, Calvinism (nor I) does not teach that it is merely 'a good idea, but a necessary requirement WITHOUT WHICH the Christian IS NOT SAVED. It is not a precondition to regeneration, nor justification before God.

Again, God never placed any onus, responsibility upon Himself to see to it that the Christian 'perseveres' but put that responsibility upon the Christian.

Salvation is a gift of God but receiving that gift is not monergistic or unconditional.

I don't know if it is a dearth of teaching concerning Election or just what --but it seems one of the hardest concept to get through to modern believers is Election --the will of God, the work of God, the wisdom and purpose of God-- concerning us.

Notice how you want to show absolute necessity ("not merely an option") of faithfulness and obedience --fine!-- but you neglect to show necessity of ("not merely an option") of the work of God on the helplessly 'dead'.

You wish to show duty --great!-- I agree, and without obedience one will not see God. I love the book of James! But, "Apart from me, you can do nothing!"

The final fact of salvation --call it 'arriving in Heaven', if you wish-- is indeed contingent on faithfulness --in Calvinist-speak, 'perseverance'-- but not CAUSED BY faithfulness.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The question was a simple yes or no. Does the Father give sheep to the Son.


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

The answer is yes, He does. The takeaway is that the Son loses none of the sheep given to Him by His Father. That would divide the Trinity if He did.

And the follow up is, does Christ intercede for us to the Father? Does Christ pray to the Father on our behalf? And if He does, does the Father ever say no to His Son?

I just love that last paragraph, or rather, the fact it references:
"...does Christ intercede for us to the Father? Does Christ pray to the Father on our behalf? And if He does, does the Father ever say no to His Son?"

I can see Arminians protesting, "Why would Christ need to pray to God for us, if they have this all worked out from the foundation of the World?" Opponents claim Calvinism posits all sorts of 'automatics', as though human will is idle and choice is vacant. But Calvinism shows how absolutely close to ruin humanity, and, more interestingly, even the Elect, come --particularly interesting is how mundane and 'earthy' the way of God is, even what passes as 'weak' to us who like bright flashy God-ness.

Nobody could --nothing can-- ride this close to the edge of utter disaster, except God, who by absolute control has no fear of failure to accomplish by this very means everything he set out to do. It is beautiful, amazing, beyond words. His power and wisdom are HUGE.

Yet he is patient and longsuffering toward us, we who insist on being the ones in control and the judges of where ruin lies.