Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

[Hammster]

Salvation is not monergestic nor unconditional. Both God and man have a role in man's salvation, Jude 1:21. When the Christian fails to keep his role in what God has required for salvation then the Christian loses the promise of salvation he once had.

If eternal security were true, it would be impossible for one sheep to ever become lost. But there is such a thing as apostasy, falling away.

Jesus said He came for the lost sheep. That’s why He goes after them. If salvation could be lost, then Jesus isn’t a trustworthy Shepherd.

 

[Butterball1]

Jesus said He came for the lost sheep. That’s why He goes after them. If salvation could be lost, then Jesus isn’t a trustworthy Shepherd.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24) and for the most part they rejected Him, crucified Him (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) and were lost Romans 10:1-3 therefore God cast them off from being His chosen, Romans 11:20-23.

If once saved always were true then the Jews could have never become lost, cast off. If once lost always lost were true, then the Gentiles could never been grafted in becoming God's chosen.

The purpose of parables is to teach one essential idea and in the case of the sheep is that sheep can become lost. That Christ is not a good, responsible Shepherd is reading something into the parable that is not there. Jesus had told them to go into the city streets for the lost, publican and sinners for all are of value to God (Luke 14:21) and in Luke 15:2 the Jews slander Jesus accusing Him of receiving sinners and eating with them. So Jesus gives parables to explain why He went among sinners.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24) and for the most part they rejected Him, crucified Him (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) and were lost Romans 10:1-3 therefore God cast them off from being His chosen, Romans 11:20-23.

If once saved always were true then the Jews could have never become lost, cast off. If once lost always lost were true, then the Gentiles could never been grafted in becoming God's chosen.

The purpose of parables is to teach one essential idea and in the case of the sheep is that sheep can become lost. That Christ is not a good, responsible Shepherd is reading something into the parable that is not there. Jesus had told them to go into the city streets for the lost, publican and sinners for all are of value to God (Luke 14:21) and in Luke 15:2 the Jews slander Jesus accusing Him of receiving sinners and eating with them. So Jesus gives parables to explain why He went among sinners.

It’s not a good argument to take various verses, ignore the context, and put them together as if it’s a coherent argument.

The lost sheep didn’t ignore Him. The purpose of the parable is to show that Christ goes after the lost sheep. The reason that His people are referred to as sheep throughout scripture is that sheep are stupid animals that wander, they need a Shepherd, and they need constant care. Every time we are compared to sheep, it’s in reference to His people. Sheep are given to Christ by His Father. I think it’s blasphemous to say that the Son would lose any sheep given to Him by His Father. That’s why I said that if He loses any, He’s not trustworthy. I, for one, an thankful for such a Trustworthy Shepherd.

 

[Butterball1]

It’s not a good argument to take various verses, ignore the context, and put them together as if it’s a coherent argument.

The lost sheep didn’t ignore Him. The purpose of the parable is to show that Christ goes after the lost sheep. The reason that His people are referred to as sheep throughout scripture is that sheep are stupid animals that wander, they need a Shepherd, and they need constant care. Every time we are compared to sheep, it’s in reference to His people. Sheep are given to Christ by His Father. I think it’s blasphemous to say that the Son would lose any sheep given to Him by His Father. That’s why I said that if He loses any, He’s not trustworthy. I, for one, an thankful for such a Trustworthy Shepherd.

Judas was among those given to Christ by God John 17:6 whom Jesus kept but Judas became lost, John 17:12. So the parable is not about Christ not being a good Shepherd.
The Shepherd persues the lost but the lost are not always found. Faithful Christians have been given the obligation to persue after Christians who wander away becoming lost, James 5:19-20.
John 6:39-40 those who God gives Christ are those who believe and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life

 

[Hammster]

Judas was among those given to Christ by God John 17:6 whom Jesus kept but Judas became lost, John 17:12. So the parable is not about Christ not being a good Shepherd.
The Shepherd persues the lost but the lost are not always found. Faithful Christians have been given the obligation to persue after Christians who wander away becoming lost, James 5:19-20.
John 6:39-40 those who God gives Christ are those who believe and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life

Lost sheep are always found. The Father gives the sheep to the Son. The Son is faithful. Your understanding makes the Shepherd to either be incompetent or unfaithful.

 

[Saint Steven]

Salvation is not monergestic nor unconditional. Both God and man have a role in man's salvation, Jude 1:21. When the Christian fails to keep his role in what God has required for salvation then the Christian loses the promise of salvation he once had.

If eternal security were true, it would be impossible for one sheep to ever become lost. But there is such a thing as apostasy, falling away.

How are such things measured? Have you done enough to "maintain" your salvation? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

The lost sheep have not lost their salvation, they have only wandered away. It is the Shepard's job to bring them back when they do. Even a wandering sheep is not "out" of the flock.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that we can undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place?

Luke 15:4 NIV
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

 

[Butterball1]

Lost sheep are always found. The Father gives the sheep to the Son. The Son is faithful. Your understanding makes the Shepherd to either be incompetent or unfaithful.

No, they are not always found. Jesus came to seek and save the lost house of Israel and all were not found, most rejected Christ and were lost. Luke 15:4 "....and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" does not imply certain guranteee all who become lost will be found.
Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

 

[Hammster]

No, they are not always found. Jesus came to seek and save the lost house of Israel and all were not found, most rejected Christ and were lost. Luke 15:4 "....and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" does not imply certain guranteee all who become lost will be found.
Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

Yes. He finds the sheep! How are you missing that?


“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

 

[Butterball1]

How are such things measured? Have you done enough to "maintain" your salvation? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

The lost sheep have not lost their salvation, they have only wandered away. It is the Shepard's job to bring them back when they do. Even a wandering sheep is not "out" of the flock.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that we can undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place?

Luke 15:4 NIV
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

Revelation 2:5 those at the congregation is Ephesus "hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Since salvation is not monergistic or unconditional the Christian does have a role in his own salvation one role being maintaining good works Titus 3:8 " be careful to maintain good works"; Ephesians 2:10; etc) for unfruitful branches will be cast into the fire John 15:6 hence 2 John 2:8.

Galatians 6:10 there is no set, specific number of good works that is to be done but good works are done as the opportunities come.

If the sheep that went astray was not lost then why is it called "lost" and why go look for something that is not lost?

What about the prodigal son? He was alive then became dead then alive again. Luke 15:32. His spiritual state was he was spiritually alive when he was with his father, then spiritually died when separated from his father, then spiritually alive AGAIN returning to his father. The father did not go out seeking for the lost son, does that imply lack of concern for the lost by the father? No, that idea would be read into the parable. But the son "came to himself" and returned to the father. The fact the son "came to himself" shows a crucial role man has in his own salvation...self determination to do God's will and not live an ungodly life.

 

[Saint Steven]

If the sheep that went astray was not lost then why is it called "lost" and why go look for something that is not lost?

What about the prodigal son? He was alive then became dead then alive again. Luke 15:32. His spiritual state was he was spiritually alive when he was with his father, then spiritually died when separated from his father, then spiritually alive AGAIN returning to his father. The father did not go out seeking for the lost son, does that imply lack of concern for the lost by the father? No, that idea would be read into the parable. But the son "came to himself" and returned to the father. The fact the son "came to himself" shows a crucial role man has in his own salvation...self determination to do God's will and not live an ungodly life.

The sheep was not lost in the sense of either not being saved, or having "lost" their salvation.

I don't think salvation belongs in the Lost and Found box. Can we lose our salvation as easily as our car keys? Maybe check the cushions on the couch? - lol

 

[Butterball1]

Yes. He finds the sheep! How are you missing that?


“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

No, lost sheep are not guaranteed to be found, you are reading that idea into the parable. Again, Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

 

[Butterball1]

The sheep was not lost in the sense of either not being saved, or having "lost" their salvation.

I don't think salvation belongs in the Lost and Found box. Can we lose our salvation as easily as our car keys? Maybe check the cushions on the couch? - lol

The lost sheep, coin, son in the parables of Luke 15 does represent those that have no salvation, hence the urgency to find them.

 

[Hammster]

No, lost sheep are not guaranteed to be found, you are reading that idea into the parable. Again, Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

Does the Father give sheep to the Son?

 

[Saint Steven]

The lost sheep, coin, son in the parables of Luke 15 does represent those that have no salvation, hence the urgency to find them.

Perhaps from a Damnationist perspective. It could just as easily be viewed from a UR perspective.

The sheep already belonged to the Shepard. The coin already belonged to the woman. The son already belonged to the Father.

Did the son lose his sonship? Only in his own eyes. (no longer worthy to be called your son) The father would have NONE of that. Bring the ring and robe.

Even as it turned out for the sheep. Everything was in sheep-shape. - lol

 

[Butterball1]

Does the Father give sheep to the Son?

John 6:35-40 says "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" and "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day".

Clearly God gives men to Christ. The issue is who and why does God give one person to Christ and not another. God does not randomly, unconditionally give men to Christ for some unknown reason hence from the context it is those who conditionally believe are the ones God gives to Christ and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life, John 6:40

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The verbs 'seeth' and 'believeth' are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. "May have" is subjunctive mood. Combining the subjunctive mood with the present tense the verse is showing one MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending upon the circumstance if one continues to seek and believe Christ. This is why the NIV got rid of the subjunctive mood (NIV did the same in John 3:16) and changed it to an indicative mood (shall have) from "may have".

 

[Butterball1]

Perhaps from a Damnationist perspective. It could just as easily be viewed from a UR perspective.

The sheep already belonged to the Shepard. The coin already belonged to the woman. The son already belonged to the Father.

Did the son lose his sonship? Only in his own eyes. (no longer worthy to be called your son) The father would have NONE of that. Bring the ring and robe.

Even as it turned out for the sheep. Everything was in sheep-shape. - lol

Yes, they were once in "ownership" but became lost. Also, God can and will disinherit His own if they will not obey, Numbers 14:12.

Will the OSASers agree that one can turn from a godly Christian life to living in sin spending money on prostitutes as the prodigal and die in that sinful state and yet still be saved?

One's physical father will always be one's fleshly father whether one is saved or not, but spiritually one's father can change. Before one becomes a Christian he is lost in sin, a reprobate, unforgiven, a child of the devil but upon obeying the gospel and becoming a Christian spiritually his father changes from the devil to God through adoption. Under the OT law Israel was God's children and God was their Father but because of their rejection of Christ the devil became their father, John 8:44.

 

[Freth]

I was going to respond with the letters to the seven churches in Revelation, but Butterball beat me to it. I'll flesh it out a bit more.

The angels of the seven churches are their messengers.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
​

Jesus goes on in chapters 2 and 3, to write to the angels of the churches. Jesus rebukes five of the seven.

• Ephesus
  • Left its first love.
• Smyrna
• Pergamos
  • Idolatry, holding fast to false doctrine.
• Thyatira
  • Jezebel, fornication, eating things sacrificed to idols.
• Sardis
  • Remember, hold fast to what you have received and heard. Watch, or I will come as a thief.
• Philadelphia
• Laodicea
  • Lukewarmness (neither hot nor cold), poor, blind and naked.

Jesus includes details on how to take corrective action and makes promises if corrective action is taken. He also details consequences for not taking corrective action.

For Laodicea, in particular, Jesus says He will spue them out of His mouth.

The seven churches actually existed in John's day, but they are also types of churches throughout history, from the time of John to present day. The church of today is clearly a type of Laodicea, being lukewarm.

In the letters to the seven churches, we can see how Christians can fall by the wayside and how Jesus will reject them. This isn't the only verse where Jesus says this.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
​

These verses would indicate that it is possible to be a lost sheep and not return to the flock and be rejected by the shepherd as lost.

The parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) states that the door will shut on those who haven't trimmed their lamps and prepared vessels of oil.

 

[Clare73]

Earlier you posted;
"Religious apostasy is to fall away from a profession of faith.

Profession is not necessarily possession. Those who apostasize had only a profession, they had no possession of true faith."

According to what you posted a person with only a "profession of faith" was never saved to begin with. So his position has not changed...he was in a lost state and still is in a lost state....he was fallen and still is fallen. Yet the terms apostate and fallen refer to a person whose position has changed from a saved state to a lost state.

That is not the definition of apostasy, which is:
the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

One who was never really saved is not one who can fall for he is and was already in a fallen lost state. Obviously one cannot fall from an already fallen state.

Correct.

An apostate falls from/abandons a profession of faith, which may, or may not, be a possession of (true) faith.

And you did not address the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

THH 2:19 were never saved, then the most that verse proves is that a never saved person....was never saved, it fails to prove that it's impossible for a saved person to become an apostate/fallen. Same with Luke 8:13 if they were never saved then they were lost, still lost and their position did not change. Again, 'apostate' and 'fallen' refer to those whose position has changed from saved to lost and not lost to lost for lost and still lost is an unchanged position....
"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
If they never really believed therefore never really saved then they were ALWAYS fallen and one cannot fall from an already fallen position. Secondly, you are ASSUMING they never did really believe therefore never really saved. Luke clearly states that they "believe"... Luke did not say they were faking as you assume. The verb 'believe" is in the indicative mood which is a simple statement of fact. It is a fact that they actually did believe hence saved then would fall from that saved state by going into unbelief, a clear change of position going from saved to lost. If they never believed then Luke did not state the truth about them when he said for a fact they 'believe'. That they "fall away" is proof they did actually believe and for a while were in a saved state to fall from it later in unbelief. For one does not fall/apostatize from unbelief state to an unbelief state.

John 6 does not teach unconditional eternal security and if it did that would render the terms 'apostate' and 'fallen' meaningless.

 

[Hammster]

John 6:35-40 says "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" and "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day".

Clearly God gives men to Christ. The issue is who and why does God give one person to Christ and not another. God does not randomly, unconditionally give men to Christ for some unknown reason hence from the context it is those who conditionally believe are the ones God gives to Christ and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life, John 6:40

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The verbs 'seeth' and 'believeth' are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. "May have" is subjunctive mood. Combining the subjunctive mood with the present tense the verse is showing one MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending upon the circumstance if one continues to seek and believe Christ. This is why the NIV got rid of the subjunctive mood (NIV did the same in John 3:16) and changed it to an indicative mood (shall have) from "may have".

I specifically asked if God gives sheep to Christ. Does He?

 

[Hammster]

The seven churches actually existed in John's day, but they are also types of churches throughout history, from the time of John to present day. The church of today is clearly Laodicea, being lukewarm.

No they are not. There’s no biblical support for this.