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Bevlina
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But, these are narrations Bok, we need cold hard evidence here. We need bones! And a tapemeasure!
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May we discuss Adam & Eve?
- Thread starter Islam
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Fuzzy, that is extremely interesting. I never knew this. There is a lot that is common between Judaism & Islam and this is one more. Good to know.
Canadian75
Please remember that the ahadith have been written down by man and hence are open to question at times. This applies to other works written by man. Please also note that there have been ahadith written by non-Muslims to deliberately blast Islam. One particular person did this many centuries ago where he had written about 5,000 false ahadiths. This is why there are three different classifications of ahadith i.e. authentic, beautiful and false. I don't know whether the hadith quoted falls into the last category or not. The Qur'an is more important, but even here over the past decade some people have tried to introduce new verses which were never revealed. However I digress.
One other aspect of Adam & Eve that has fascinated me is there children and how we got here. After extensive research I found the following information some from ahadith.
Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) had multiple sets of mixed twins. In the first set there was Qabil (Cain) and Iqlima. In the second set there was Habil (Abel) and Labuda.
It was normal during this time for each male twin to marry a female twin from another set. Qabils twin sister (Iqlima) was beautiful whilst Habils twin sister (Labuda) was not. God commands Adam (peace be upon him) that Qabil should marry Labuda and Habil with Iqlima. However Qabil protests. As a result of this disagreement, Adam (peace be upon him) asks both Qabil and Habil to make a sacrifice to God. Whosevers sacrifice was accepted would marry Iqlima.
Habils sacrifice was that of a prized sheep as he was a shepherd and given with a good heart. Qabils sacrifice was some wheat of the poorest quality as he tilled the land but given with a bad heart. Habils sacrifice was accepted and Qabils sacrifice was rejected. As a result of this, Qabil becomes jealous and angry towards his brother Habil and kills him by striking him on the head with a rock whilst he was asleep.
God sends a raven, which digs the ground and buries another dead raven with the earth. Qabil sees this and buries his young brother after many days of carrying his dead brother not knowing what to do.
27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! They each presented a sacrifice (to God): It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "God only accepts the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
28. Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear God, the Lord of the Worlds.
29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
31. Then God sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother's naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother's naked corpse? And he became repentant.
32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Quran - Surah al-Maaida (The Table Spread) 5:27-32
Marriages between the children of Adam (peace be upon him) occurred during the early days of Islam in order to multiply the human race. Up and until the time of Noah these marriages were valid. Thereafter they were strictly forbidden in Islam. Marriage between cousins was allowed at the time, which is still accepted practice in Islam today.
It would be good to know what Christians say about there version of this story, assuming there is some information available.
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Bevlina
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Christians believe the same Islam. Only the names we call the brothers are Cain and Abel. Other Christians would verify this I am sure.
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stillsmallvoice
The Narn rule!
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Hi all!
About a "literal reading" of the Tanakh. I don't think that any two people could agree on a "literal reading" of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me's. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a "literal reading" of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, "literal" interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures..
So, that being said, how do I, the orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.
Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, whether Adam & Eve "really existed" or whether the Flood "really happened" or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)? The Torah is not a geology, cosmology, biology or history text. What it is is God's loving instructions on how He wants us to lead our lives.
I heard a story that Karl Barth once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said "Dr. Barth, you don't really believe snakes could talk do you?" Barth replied, "I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I'm interested in is what the snake said."
I'll add one more thing. It always gets me how some religious folk, usually of a more fundamentalist bent, treat the scriptures as if they were some kind of adult version of a first grade reader, i.e. with everything very simply/simplistically laid out & spelled out, no depth, no use of simile, metaphor & allegory, no layers of meaning, and with shallow, uncomplex characters who never have mixed motives. This is not the Jewish view at all! We see the Tanakh as possessing limitless depth, a rich, oftentimes allegorical & metaphorical, language that lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations (within limits) and a vast reservoir of multi-layered meaning. The characters are complex & not made out of cardboard.
I've culled the following from the writings of Rabbi Ari Kahn:
We may conclude from Genesis 2:16-17 that Adam (and Eve) were not forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life prior to their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Our Sages identify the Tree of Life with the Torah (see Proverbs 3:1...3:18; the Hebrew phrase erroneously translated as "My teaching" in 3:1 is Torati, literally "My Torah") & teach that the Tree of Life in the garden was the embodiment of the Torah & all the wisdom contained therein. If the Tree of Life is the Torah, then what is the Tree of Knowledge? Our Sages comment on the usage of the root y-d-h (which, in its various forms, means "to know", "knowledge", etc.) and note that its first occurence immediately after the expuilsion is in Genesis 4:1 ("And Adam knew his wife...") & conclude that knowledge implies experience; thus, our Sages identify the Tree of Knowledge as the Tree of Experience.
Rabbi Kahn explains that God's plan was for Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Life (i.e. partake of the Torah) before delving into the world of experience (i.e. eat from the Tree of Knowledge). But, incited by the snake (whom our Sages identify with the yetzer hara, the selfish/self-centered impulse [see http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm#Yetzer] in all of us), we messed up the order & got it backwards. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The advantage of Torah wisdom preceding experience is that the Torah, once internalized, will serve as a basis from which subsequent experience will be interpreted. Torah becomes a vantage point from which experiences are viewed and understood. If, however, experiences are acquired first, they will serve as a basis for the interpretation given subsequently to Torah. This latter sequence can lead to distortion of the Torah and misinterpretation based on the subjective experience of the individual. Torah must precede experience. Torah must be the benchmark by which Jews lead their lives." So instead of receiving the Torah & its wisdom and infusing it into the very core of our collective being at the very beginning of our existence as a species, we are driven from it with a sword-wielding cherub barring, I wouldn't say the way back to it, rather I'd say, barring this particular route back to it.
The Torah scroll that Moses wrote (like the 10 Commandments are a microcosm for/symbolize/represent the entire Torah) was placed in the Ark (interpretations of Deuteronomy 31:24-26 differ; some of our Sages say that the Torah scroll was placed on a shelf inside/outside the ark, or in the ark next to one side). What was on top of the ark, guarding the Torah? Once again, cherubs. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The first mention of cherubs in the Torah is in the verse describing the eviction of man from the Garden of Eden...As a result of man's sin, the cherubs enter the world, in order to protect the Tree of Life. We have noted the identification between the Tree of Life and the Torah. It is therefore interesting to note that in the Ark the cherubs protect the Ark which contains the Torah, and in Eden the cherubs protected the path leading to the Tree of Life/Torah. Interesting as this similarity is, it does not enlighten us regarding the essence of the cherubs. Before the sin of Adam and Eve, the cherubs were unnecessary; they appear only as a result of the sin. Perhaps we may draw the following conclusion - the cherubs represent none other than Adam and Eve themselves, young and innocent and naked in the Garden of Eden. Only as a result of their sin did they become aware of, and embarrassed by, their nakedness. The new, "sophisticated" perspective of Adam and Eve, born of partaking of the forbidden fruit, gave them a different, perhaps distorted view of the world. After the sin, they knew that they were naked; they needed to clothe themselves, to hide from God. It is fascinating that the Hebrew word for clothing is beged, which shares the same room as the word "rebellion." The clothing which man wears is a memorial to rebellion and the resultant distancing from God...At the top of the ark, in place of this jaded couple, pathetically attempting to hide from God, now stood an innocent looking couple, representing Adam and Eve before the sin in a state of total innocence before God. Specifically from this place would the word of God emerge and reverberate...The two cherubs were made of one piece of gold, just as Adam and Eve were initially joined together as one. The cherubs therefore symbolize the ultimate return to one's self."
Thus, by clinging to the Torah (which we must now obtain through effort & struggle) we can re-attain our lost innocence and spiritual purity. Armed with the Torah, we need not fear the snake/yetzer hara.
Howzat?
ssv
About a "literal reading" of the Tanakh. I don't think that any two people could agree on a "literal reading" of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me's. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a "literal reading" of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, "literal" interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures..
So, that being said, how do I, the orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.
Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, whether Adam & Eve "really existed" or whether the Flood "really happened" or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)? The Torah is not a geology, cosmology, biology or history text. What it is is God's loving instructions on how He wants us to lead our lives.
I heard a story that Karl Barth once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said "Dr. Barth, you don't really believe snakes could talk do you?" Barth replied, "I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I'm interested in is what the snake said."
I'll add one more thing. It always gets me how some religious folk, usually of a more fundamentalist bent, treat the scriptures as if they were some kind of adult version of a first grade reader, i.e. with everything very simply/simplistically laid out & spelled out, no depth, no use of simile, metaphor & allegory, no layers of meaning, and with shallow, uncomplex characters who never have mixed motives. This is not the Jewish view at all! We see the Tanakh as possessing limitless depth, a rich, oftentimes allegorical & metaphorical, language that lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations (within limits) and a vast reservoir of multi-layered meaning. The characters are complex & not made out of cardboard.
I've culled the following from the writings of Rabbi Ari Kahn:
We may conclude from Genesis 2:16-17 that Adam (and Eve) were not forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life prior to their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Our Sages identify the Tree of Life with the Torah (see Proverbs 3:1...3:18; the Hebrew phrase erroneously translated as "My teaching" in 3:1 is Torati, literally "My Torah") & teach that the Tree of Life in the garden was the embodiment of the Torah & all the wisdom contained therein. If the Tree of Life is the Torah, then what is the Tree of Knowledge? Our Sages comment on the usage of the root y-d-h (which, in its various forms, means "to know", "knowledge", etc.) and note that its first occurence immediately after the expuilsion is in Genesis 4:1 ("And Adam knew his wife...") & conclude that knowledge implies experience; thus, our Sages identify the Tree of Knowledge as the Tree of Experience.
Rabbi Kahn explains that God's plan was for Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Life (i.e. partake of the Torah) before delving into the world of experience (i.e. eat from the Tree of Knowledge). But, incited by the snake (whom our Sages identify with the yetzer hara, the selfish/self-centered impulse [see http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm#Yetzer] in all of us), we messed up the order & got it backwards. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The advantage of Torah wisdom preceding experience is that the Torah, once internalized, will serve as a basis from which subsequent experience will be interpreted. Torah becomes a vantage point from which experiences are viewed and understood. If, however, experiences are acquired first, they will serve as a basis for the interpretation given subsequently to Torah. This latter sequence can lead to distortion of the Torah and misinterpretation based on the subjective experience of the individual. Torah must precede experience. Torah must be the benchmark by which Jews lead their lives." So instead of receiving the Torah & its wisdom and infusing it into the very core of our collective being at the very beginning of our existence as a species, we are driven from it with a sword-wielding cherub barring, I wouldn't say the way back to it, rather I'd say, barring this particular route back to it.
The Torah scroll that Moses wrote (like the 10 Commandments are a microcosm for/symbolize/represent the entire Torah) was placed in the Ark (interpretations of Deuteronomy 31:24-26 differ; some of our Sages say that the Torah scroll was placed on a shelf inside/outside the ark, or in the ark next to one side). What was on top of the ark, guarding the Torah? Once again, cherubs. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The first mention of cherubs in the Torah is in the verse describing the eviction of man from the Garden of Eden...As a result of man's sin, the cherubs enter the world, in order to protect the Tree of Life. We have noted the identification between the Tree of Life and the Torah. It is therefore interesting to note that in the Ark the cherubs protect the Ark which contains the Torah, and in Eden the cherubs protected the path leading to the Tree of Life/Torah. Interesting as this similarity is, it does not enlighten us regarding the essence of the cherubs. Before the sin of Adam and Eve, the cherubs were unnecessary; they appear only as a result of the sin. Perhaps we may draw the following conclusion - the cherubs represent none other than Adam and Eve themselves, young and innocent and naked in the Garden of Eden. Only as a result of their sin did they become aware of, and embarrassed by, their nakedness. The new, "sophisticated" perspective of Adam and Eve, born of partaking of the forbidden fruit, gave them a different, perhaps distorted view of the world. After the sin, they knew that they were naked; they needed to clothe themselves, to hide from God. It is fascinating that the Hebrew word for clothing is beged, which shares the same room as the word "rebellion." The clothing which man wears is a memorial to rebellion and the resultant distancing from God...At the top of the ark, in place of this jaded couple, pathetically attempting to hide from God, now stood an innocent looking couple, representing Adam and Eve before the sin in a state of total innocence before God. Specifically from this place would the word of God emerge and reverberate...The two cherubs were made of one piece of gold, just as Adam and Eve were initially joined together as one. The cherubs therefore symbolize the ultimate return to one's self."
Thus, by clinging to the Torah (which we must now obtain through effort & struggle) we can re-attain our lost innocence and spiritual purity. Armed with the Torah, we need not fear the snake/yetzer hara.
Howzat?
ssv
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arunma said:
If this is your belief then what do you think of the genealogies that are written throughout the Bible, that clearly point to a much earlier date?
This is an honest question, and not anything else.
Thanks
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Fuzzy
One by Four by Nine
Bones and teeth take longer than anything else. Open exposure in a temperate or equatorial climate, and especially a solid insect population, will have just a skeleton in 7 to 10 days.Bookofknowledge said:
Bookofknowledge said:
Yep. That's why we don't have lots of animal skeletons everywhere.
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Fuzzy said:
2005AD - 200k years = 198kBC roughly so earlier would mean say 4000BC for example.
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Weight of a 27m Tall Man: If the height of a man were to increase by a factor of 15 from 1.8m (6ft) to 27 m (90ft), his weight must increase by a factor of 3375.
A 73 kilogram man at 1.8m will weigh 246 375 kilogram (543 164 pounds or 272 tons) at a height of 27m.
Source - http://smccd.net/accounts/goth/MainPages/Scaling/Scaling.htm
Summary: A 27 meter tall Adam must have weighed nearly 272 tons and must have had a fantastic and unbelievable appetite. Adam would have had to consume the amount of food eaten by 3375 normal males.
Kind Regards,
Farside
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In Islam, the Arabic word for yetzer hara is nafs.
The Qur'an has described at least 3 main types of the Nafs. And these are in rank from the worse to better: Nafs al-Ammara Bissu' (the Nafs that urges evil - yitzer ra), Nafs al-Lawwama (the Nafs that Blames) and Nafs al-Mutma`inna (the Nafs at Peace - yitzer tov).
"The (human) soul is certainly prone to evil" - Qur'an 12:53
stillsmallvoice
Any information in how many children Adam & Eve had according to Judaism? Names?
From ahadith sources, Eve had 19 sets of mixed twins and a final birth of a son. Each pregnancy was spaced by 2 years.
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"Replica of the Adam's footprint on top of Adam's Peak in Sri Lanka, complete with the 108 marks which distinguish a Buddha foot from any other 2 meter long foot. Also in the Temple of 1000 Lights." http://jdc.math.uwo.ca/images/world/r7-sing-egypt/img09.jpg
Another picture of Adams foot can be found at http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles4/adams_peak.htm
Kind Regards,
Farside
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rahul_sharma
Hindu dominated India - Largest Democracy on Earth
farside said:See Adams Footprint!
"Replica of the Adam's footprint on top of Adam's Peak in Sri Lanka, complete with the 108 marks which distinguish a Buddha foot from any other 2 meter long foot. Also in the Temple of 1000 Lights." http://jdc.math.uwo.ca/images/world/r7-sing-egypt/img09.jpg
Another picture of Adams foot can be found at http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles4/adams_peak.htm
Kind Regards,
Farside
Actually, i too believe there must be some connection as Adam-Eve is purely fiction (according to me) but have very deep smplified symbolic meanings of Very complex "Maya" concept of Hindusim.
For Hindus, the name of the mountain is Sivan Adi Padham, because it was the world-creative dance of the Shiva that left the giant footprint (5 feet 7 inches by 2 feet 6 inches). Also, many hindus respect kabba as Shiva temple and Black stone as Shivlingam (and Allah as Shiva). Those who are familier with deep Shiva concepts , they will not have any problem to understand origins of Cresent moon of Islam and many other Kabba rituals.
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Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 544: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 74, Number 246: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."
Sahih Muslim Book 040, Number 6795: This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira through another chain of transmitters that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The (members of the) first group which would get into Paradise will have their faces as bright as stars in the sky. They would neither pass water, nor void excrement, nor will they suffer from catarrh, nor will they spit, and their combs would be made of gold, and their sweat will be musk, the fuel of their brazier will be aloes, and their wives will be large-eyed maidens and their form would be alike as one single person after the form of their father (Adam) sixty cubits tall.
Sahih Muslim Book 040, Number 6809: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.
P.S. A 60 cubit Adam would have weighed 272 tons. The largest whale (blue whale) weighs about 190 tons.
Kind Regards,
Farside
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stillsmallvoice
The Narn rule!
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Hi all!
Of what possible relevance could Adam's height be? As Buddha would say, this is a question that does not edify.
Don't get hung up on trees when there's a whole forest around you!
Be well!
ssv
Of what possible relevance could Adam's height be? As Buddha would say, this is a question that does not edify.
Don't get hung up on trees when there's a whole forest around you!
Be well!
ssv
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