May we discuss Adam & Eve?

[sefroth77]

In fact Jews, Christians & Muslims believe in the unique creation of Adam & Eve. This comprises of over 40% of the world population. Not bad.

I don't know what the Judaic meaning of Adam is but in Islam Adam literally means 'from the earth'. Adam was created using a combination of earth and water by God. The Arabic name for Eve, for those who are interested, is Huwwa. Not sure what the meaning of the name is. Can anyone shed any light? Would also be interested in the Judo-Christian meanings of these names.

Funny that a All Powerful God needs Mud and water to create man. Seems like he can't do it on his own. If Adam and eve were the first man and women they give birth to children, These children being brothers and sisters mutiply themselves commiting incest ??

 

[Arthra]

Funny that a All Powerful God needs Mud and water to create man. Seems like he can't do it on his own. If Adam and eve were the first man and women they give birth to children, These children being brothers and sisters mutiply themselves commiting incest ??

Comment:


Well some of this comes from misunderstanding and too literal an interpretation of scripture...

The creation account goes something like this:

"God fashioned man of dust from the soil. Then He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life and thus man became a living being." - Gen. 2:7

So the breath (Ruakh or Ruh) we breath was originally from God and that word for breath is also the same word for soul or spirit. Man was created from the humble clay and returns to it dust unto dust Genesis 3:19. So when man strides on the earth he should be humble as he aside from God's breath he is nothing more dust.

The Bible says man named his wife "Eve" or "Hewah" and "Hawwa" in Arabic because she was the mother of all those who live, in Greek this name is "Zoe". In Arabic there's a word for family or tribe "Hya"

A useful resource is still Gesenius lexicon to understand the meanings of teh Hebrew, Chaldean words of the Old Testament. Gesenius defines "Adam" from the Hebrew as "red, ruddy". The Arabic is also "Adam". As mentioned earlier that Qur'an gives us some additional information that doesn't really contradict what the Bible says.

The word for earth is "Adamah" and related to the word "Adam" so it is not too much of a stretch to say that the very name "Adam" is related to "red earth".

"And we said O Adam dwell thou and thy wife Howwa or Eve whom God created from a rib of his left side..." This special creation of Eve is from the heart and breath of man and so while Adam is created from dust Eve is created from his side...a more refined creation closer to the heart and spirit/breath of man... at least it could be seen this way.

The Arabic "Ruh" is also a title of Jesus "Ruh'u'llah" Spirit of God, and is realted to the Hebrew "Ruakh" spirit, soul and life, or in Latin the "Anima".

The Bible implies that Cain's wife lived with her people in the land of Nod (east of Eden) and we're not told that she was Cain's "sister".... You can read this in Genesis 4:16.

So the ancient languages Hebrew and Chaldean or Aramaic are really sister languages to Arabic and have a close relationship to one another.

Now consider that teh Vishnu Purana has Brahma creating the world and there "springs from his mouth beings...". This sounds very much like the account in Genesis the breath of God.

"Then Brahma created himself the Manu Svayambhuva born of and identical with his self, his originanl self for the protection of created beings (just as Adam was the steward of the Garden "to cultivate it and take care of it" as in Gen. 2:15) and the female portion of himself he constituted Satarupa, this varies somewhat depending on the Purana...

The general name for man in the Puranas is "manusya".

So really the course of creation and how man and woman in created is really quite simialr whethehr you read the Bible, the Qur'an or the Puranas.

 

[S Walch]

Ugh ! "..Commentary War.." <~~~ facetious comment. Have you looked into the various schools of thought on the subject ? You pointed out one particular interpretation to giving the notion as though it is a reality accepted by the whole muslims world.

lol, sorry - I'm just messing with you (blame my whacked out British Humour)

Maybe cause your too focussed on commentary rather than focussing on the the verses.

Sorry, but the verses aren't very clear, especially when they say one thing in one and then say something different about it in another.

And yes you over looked what the Quran said in the verses I posted:

Verse 13 above says in Arabic "fahbiT minhaa" ~ "Get out or get down from it" Thus he was relinquished from a status. This was no refering to him getting out of the Jannah cause later he is in the jannah tempting Adam and his wife when they all are told to get down from the Jannah to the Earth.

Sorry, but reading the verse it doesn't really make clear what he's been told to get down from - especially as I really can't see how it refers to status.

Is status/race the same in the Qur'an?

Surah 15:27

"And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind."

Now to me, the "Jinn race" doesn't refer to a status, but a new type of being.

Just like the "Human Race" is different from the "Animal Race"
A new, completely different type of Being.

As we don't say that "The Middle class" (a status) is a new completely different race to the "High class" (status).

Those in the Middle/High class are all from the human race, but they have a different status.

Just like in Surah 18:50

Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!


Now, if we are to take that the Jinns are a "race" - then how, with Surah 18:50 and Iblis being called a Jinn (and therefore apart of the Jinn race (As in Surah 15:27)) can he be a part of the Angel Race?

 

[Upsilon]

To sefroth77,

Funny that a All Powerful God needs Mud and water to create man. Seems like he can't do it on his own. If Adam and eve were the first man and women they give birth to children, These children being brothers and sisters mutiply themselves commiting incest ??

He didn't need soil to create man, He just chose to do it that way. For example, God made the entire universe ex nihilo, or "out of nothing". God just speaks it into existence and there it is. Perhaps, although this is just speculation, since God just spoke every other animal into existence ex nihilo, He may have wanted us to know that He is that important to us that He purposefully crafted us with His own hands. Why make out of soil? For pretty much the same reason that most artists do - it's easy to work with .

It's important to know according to Christian belief that brothers and sisters as well as close relatives (no immoral relationships like father/daughter, uncle/niece, etc, etc) were allowed up until the time of Moses. After this time, such relationships were forbidden by God - hence why we think such relationships are wrong. I believe this was given partly because of the risk that closely related people parenting a child can have on the offspring with things like genetic mutations and other deformations to the child.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Now, if we are to take that the Jinns are a "race" - then how, with Surah 18:50 and Iblis being called a Jinn (and therefore apart of the Jinn race (As in Surah 15:27)) can he be a part of the Angel Race?

Sorry to break your bubble, but since you have established your whole dialogue on the word "RACE" there is no word for "RACE" in the Arabic.

15:27 Quran

&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1580;&#1614;&#1570;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1602;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1575;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1602;&#1614;&#1576;&#1618;&#1604;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1617;&#1614;&#1605;&#1615;&#1608;&#1605;&#1616;


wa (and) al (the) jaanna (Jinns[plural]) khalaq (created) naa (We) min (from) Qablu (before) min (from) naarin (flaming) assamoom (the scorching wind)

There is no RACE or discription of RACE mention in the Arabic. There is only "THE JINNS" ie "Al-jaanna" . The Arabic word for "race" is jinsu. What you are reading is a translators interpolation.

When we quoted for you 7:11-12 Iblis (arjm) is addressed as Angel in which Iblis in the same verse infered to himself as being a Jinn.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." 7:11-12

He (arjm) comfirms himself as a Jinn as he was created from Fire and was also address as an Angel in the same verse.

And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind. 15:27 Quran

How this is vague to you is beyond me. Then better yet thats why you are who you are and I am who I am.

Your statement of the Quran saying one thing and then saying another is illusionary when in the same context of 7:11-13 he is identified as an Angel and a Jinn. Thus He had the status of an Angel as he was told after he disobeyed to get out and come out of it that he was in.

The Problem you are having is that you cannot see "Angel" as being a status whereas you are inclining by nature to infringe what the Quran teaches.

 

[S Walch]

Sorry to break your bubble, but since you have established your whole dialogue on the word "RACE" there is no word for "RACE" in the Arabic.

15:27 Quran

&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1580;&#1614;&#1570;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1602;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1575;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1602;&#1614;&#1576;&#1618;&#1604;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1617;&#1614;&#1605;&#1615;&#1608;&#1605;&#1616;


wa (and) al (the) jaanna (Jinns[plural]) khalaq (created) naa (We) min (from) Qablu (before) min (from) naarin (flaming) assamoom (the scorching wind)

There is no RACE or discription of RACE mention in the Arabic. There is only "THE JINNS" ie "Al-jaanna" . The Arabic word for "race" is jinsu. What you are reading is a translators interpolation.

:O

Bad translator!

Bad!

When we quoted for you 7:11-12 Iblis (arjm) is addressed as Angel in which Iblis in the same verse infered to himself as being a Jinn.

He (arjm) comfirms himself as a Jinn as he was created from Fire and was also address as an Angel in the same verse.

How this is vague to you is beyond me. Then better yet thats why you are who you are and I am who I am.

Your statement of the Quran saying one thing and then saying another is illusionary when in the same context of 7:11-13 he is identified as an Angel and a Jinn. Thus He had the status of an Angel as he was told after he disobeyed to get out and come out of it that he was in.

Great, thank you!

Finally an explination of it that makes sense!

So, if Iblis is a Jinn, is he therefore a "fallen Angel" as he was demoted from the Angel Status?

 

[SolomonVII]

While not scriptural for anybody, early Jewish literature contains a very similar story of Satan's fall being on acccount of his failure to worship Adam, or the "image of God", as described in this non-Koranic version of the same event:

http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/260adam.html



Fall of Satan
12.1 Groaning, the Devil said: "O Adam, all my enmity, jealousy, and resentment is towards you, since on account of you I was expelled and alienated from my glory, which I had in heaven in the midst of the angels. On account of you I was cast out upon the earth."
12.2 Adam answered: "What have I done to you?
12.3 What fault do I have against you? Since you have not been harmed nor injured by us, why do you persecute us?"
13.1 The Devil answered: "Adam what are you saying to me? On account of you I was cast out from heaven.
13.2 When you were formed, I was cast out from the face of God and was sent forth from the company of the angels. When God blew into you the breath of life and your countenance and likeness were made in the image of God, Michael led you and made you worship in the sight of God. The Lord God then said: 'Behold, Adam, I have made you in our image and likeness.'
14.1 Having gone forth Michael called all the angels saying: 'Worship the image of the Lord God, just as the Lord God has commanded.'
14.2 Michael himself worshipped first then he called me and said: 'Worship the image of God Jehovah.'
14.3 I answered: 'I do not have it within me to worship Adam.' When Michael compelled me to worship, I said to him: 'Why do you compel me? I will not worship him who is lower and posterior to me. I am prior to that creature. Before he was made, I had already been made. He ought to worship me.'
15.1 Hearing this, other angels who were under me were unwilling to worship him.
15.2 Michael said: 'Worship the image of God. If you do not worship, the Lord God will grow angry with you.'
15.3 said: 'If he grows angry with me, I will place my seat above the stars of heaven and I will be like the Most High.'
16.1 Then the Lord God grew angry with me and sent me forth with my angels from our glory. On account of you we were expelled from our dwelling into this world and cast out upon the earth.
16.2 Immediately we were in grief, since we had been despoiled of so much glory,
16.3 and we grieved to see you in such a great happiness of delights. 16:4 By a trick I cheated your wife and caused you to be expelled through her from the delights of your happiness, just as I had been expelled from my glory."
17.1 Hearing this, Adam cried out with a great shout because of the Devil, and said: "O Lord my God, in your hands is my life. Make this adversary of mine be far from me, who seeks to ruin my soul. Give me his glory which he himself lost."
17.2 Immediately the Devil no longer appeared to him.
17.3 Adam truly persevered for forty days standing in penitence in the waters of the Jordan.

 

[SolomonVII]

Hi all!

About a "literal reading" of the Tanakh. I don't think that any two people could agree on a "literal reading" of, say, Genesis (certainly mine, as an orthodox Jew and based on the original Hebrew, will probably differ in many particulars from that of a fundamentalist Protestant, based on the KJV); such a thing is inherently subjective and based on our own idiosyncrasies, psychological/emotional/spiritual baggage and personal it-seems-to-me's. Thus, we should be very leery of basing beliefs and/or arguments on a "literal reading" of the scriptures. Those who do insist on a strict, narrow, "literal" interpretation of this or that section of scripture are, I believe, forcing it into a literary and spiritual strait-jacket entirely of their own devising that does no justice to the scriptures..

There is a link to a rabbi I posted that brings this point out about the word nakedness or "arom"in Hebrew I believe. What is translated into English as shrewd, in the Hebrew is the same word as the nakedness of Adam and Eve.
So in a sense, the snake was hiding his intent by fully revealing what he was about. He in a sense was pure instinct, pure passion, and he presented himself as such.
But what was suitable a beast is not necessarily suitable for a man. (Recall that Adam had already looked for a mate amongst the animals and found them wanting).

So, that being said, how do I, the orthodox Jew, view the Torah? Well, of course, I believe that it (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) is the literal word of God as He revealed it to Moses our Teacher. We believe that the Torah can be understood/appreciated/interpreted on any of four general levels ranging from that which is most in accord with a close reading of the (original Hebrew!!!) text, to the metaphorical, to the most rarefied and esoteric (the grasp of which is waaay beyond most of us). Who is to say which chapter and verse of Genesis is to be best understood or appreciated on which level? Moreover, our Sages say that the Torah is like a diamond with many facets, each with its own brilliance, each offering a different perspective from which to behold the wondrous jewel.

Lastly, I would humbly argue that we are grasping at trees & missing the forest. What is more important, (sterile?) debates over whether Genesis proves/supports or disproves/opposes this or that theory of creation or evolution, whether Adam & Eve "really existed" or whether the Flood "really happened" or discussing, studying and seeking to internalize its sublime moral, ethical and spiritual truths (such as befit the word of God)? The Torah is not a geology, cosmology, biology or history text. What it is is God's loving instructions on how He wants us to lead our lives.

Well said. Really, the height of Adam will not make any difference in my life one way or another.

I heard a story that Karl Barth once gave a lecture on Genesis 3 at the University of Chicago. When it came time for the question and answer portion, a student spoke up and said "Dr. Barth, you don't really believe snakes could talk do you?" Barth replied, "I could care less whether or not snakes could talk. What I'm interested in is what the snake said."

... or why he said it... given that the snake draws to mind something of the bestial nature, the motivation of pride, or hurt at being passed over as a suitable mate for man, or being forced to bow down to Adam as in the Koranic text; somehow this motivation remains mainly hidden in the Genesis version.

Now ethnologists would find some meaning as to why the snake did as he did in primitive beliefs that are reflected in many myths of snakes possessing immortality ie rather than die they simply get a new skin, and carry on.
By the time the biblical story was written though, the writer was well aware that snakes did not dupe mankind of immortality, and eat from the Tree of life in stead of men.
For the motivation of the snake to really make sense for me, the bestial characteristics of the snakeneeds to take on a spiritual and human nature as well. The evilness, and the prideful ambition of beast usurping the sovereignty of God is more less absent in much of Jewish thought on the serpent, but becomes much more readily apparent in Moslem and Christian commentariy.

I'll add one more thing. It always gets me how some religious folk, usually of a more fundamentalist bent, treat the scriptures as if they were some kind of adult version of a first grade reader, i.e. with everything very simply/simplistically laid out & spelled out, no depth, no use of simile, metaphor & allegory, no layers of meaning, and with shallow, uncomplex characters who never have mixed motives. This is not the Jewish view at all! We see the Tanakh as possessing limitless depth, a rich, oftentimes allegorical & metaphorical, language that lends itself to a multiplicity of interpretations (within limits) and a vast reservoir of multi-layered meaning. The characters are complex & not made out of cardboard.

The depth and the reality of the characters of the biblical narrative capture the breadth of human existence. The Old Testament is really unprecedented in ancient literature.

I've culled the following from the writings of Rabbi Ari Kahn:

We may conclude from Genesis 2:16-17 that Adam (and Eve) were not forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life prior to their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Our Sages identify the Tree of Life with the Torah (see Proverbs 3:1...3:18; the Hebrew phrase erroneously translated as "My teaching" in 3:1 is Torati, literally "My Torah") & teach that the Tree of Life in the garden was the embodiment of the Torah & all the wisdom contained therein. If the Tree of Life is the Torah, then what is the Tree of Knowledge? Our Sages comment on the usage of the root y-d-h (which, in its various forms, means "to know", "knowledge", etc.) and note that its first occurence immediately after the expuilsion is in Genesis 4:1 ("And Adam knew his wife...") & conclude that knowledge implies experience; thus, our Sages identify the Tree of Knowledge as the Tree of Experience.

Rabbi Kahn explains that God's plan was for Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of Life (i.e. partake of the Torah) before delving into the world of experience (i.e. eat from the Tree of Knowledge). But, incited by the snake (whom our Sages identify with the yetzer hara, the selfish/self-centered impulse [see http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm#Yetzer] in all of us), we messed up the order & got it backwards. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The advantage of Torah wisdom preceding experience is that the Torah, once internalized, will serve as a basis from which subsequent experience will be interpreted. Torah becomes a vantage point from which experiences are viewed and understood. If, however, experiences are acquired first, they will serve as a basis for the interpretation given subsequently to Torah. This latter sequence can lead to distortion of the Torah and misinterpretation based on the subjective experience of the individual. Torah must precede experience. Torah must be the benchmark by which Jews lead their lives." So instead of receiving the Torah & its wisdom and infusing it into the very core of our collective being at the very beginning of our existence as a species, we are driven from it with a sword-wielding cherub barring, I wouldn't say the way back to it, rather I'd say, barring this particular route back to it.

The Torah scroll that Moses wrote (like the 10 Commandments are a microcosm for/symbolize/represent the entire Torah) was placed in the Ark (interpretations of Deuteronomy 31:24-26 differ; some of our Sages say that the Torah scroll was placed on a shelf inside/outside the ark, or in the ark next to one side). What was on top of the ark, guarding the Torah? Once again, cherubs. Rabbi Kahn writes: "The first mention of cherubs in the Torah is in the verse describing the eviction of man from the Garden of Eden...As a result of man's sin, the cherubs enter the world, in order to protect the Tree of Life. We have noted the identification between the Tree of Life and the Torah. It is therefore interesting to note that in the Ark the cherubs protect the Ark which contains the Torah, and in Eden the cherubs protected the path leading to the Tree of Life/Torah. Interesting as this similarity is, it does not enlighten us regarding the essence of the cherubs. Before the sin of Adam and Eve, the cherubs were unnecessary; they appear only as a result of the sin. Perhaps we may draw the following conclusion - the cherubs represent none other than Adam and Eve themselves, young and innocent and naked in the Garden of Eden. Only as a result of their sin did they become aware of, and embarrassed by, their nakedness. The new, "sophisticated" perspective of Adam and Eve, born of partaking of the forbidden fruit, gave them a different, perhaps distorted view of the world. After the sin, they knew that they were naked; they needed to clothe themselves, to hide from God. It is fascinating that the Hebrew word for clothing is beged, which shares the same room as the word "rebellion." The clothing which man wears is a memorial to rebellion and the resultant distancing from God...At the top of the ark, in place of this jaded couple, pathetically attempting to hide from God, now stood an innocent looking couple, representing Adam and Eve before the sin in a state of total innocence before God. Specifically from this place would the word of God emerge and reverberate...The two cherubs were made of one piece of gold, just as Adam and Eve were initially joined together as one. The cherubs therefore symbolize the ultimate return to one's self."

Thus, by clinging to the Torah (which we must now obtain through effort & struggle) we can re-attain our lost innocence and spiritual purity. Armed with the Torah, we need not fear the snake/yetzer hara.
...

Just a few words from a Catholic perspective. The ark of the Covenant, like the Ark of Noah has always been seen as a symbol for Mary. The Tree of Life is of course Jesus, who shares with us the gift of life at the Eucharist.
Like the Torah, Jesus is considered to be the veritable Word of God, and Mary, as the Ark, carries the Word forth into the world.


Oh , and one more point to ponder. When Adam and Eve found themselves to be naked in the Genesis narrative , they experienced not shame, as we might expect, but fear.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

So, if Iblis is a Jinn, is he therefore a "fallen Angel" as he was demoted from the Angel Status?

This is touchy. There is a difference of concept ie Theory of "fallen Angel" as Abdullaah Yusuf Ali phrased :

2:34) #49 "The arabic may also be translated: " They bowed down, except Iblis." In that case Iblis (Satan) would be one of the angels. But the theory of fallen angels is not usually accepted in Muslim theology. In xviii. 50, Iblis is spoken of as a Jinn. We shall discuss later the meaning of this word."

We do not accept the Christian theoritical concept of "falling Angel".

Christian belief is that there was a war in heaven between Michael and his hosts and Satan and his host (Angels vs Angels). Satan and his host lost the battle and was cast down to the earth. This was started cause Satan refused to obey G-d and wanted to challenge G-d. While condemned to the Earth Satan misled Adam and his wife to disobey.

Islamic teaching according to the Quran, Satan BKA Iblis (arjm) was a Jinn by nature whom held the status of an Angel. G-d commanded the Angels to prostrate to Adam but the only one whom did not prostrate was Iblis (arjm) cause he felt superior to man. He was relinquished, out casted and expelled from his high position.

As he promissed he would, he caused Adam and his wife to blunder from the command G-d gave them not to do. The test of Adam and his wife came to an end and to the earth all of them were sent down to for a time.

We have obtained the conflicts of the two faiths. Islam rejects a war happened in heaven, it was only Satan alone who disobeyed when the Angels were given a command, and that the paradise Adam and his wife dwelt in was not on earth, and when Satan was expelled he was not sent to earth until after he misled Adam and his wife.
In Islam we believe that some Jinn are righteous and some are evil just like mankind. Iblis (arjm) was a righteous Jinn whom was favored by Allah whom exaulted him to the position/status of an Angel and then relinquished from it cause of his arrogance and disobedience.

 

[dsamuel]

dsamuel,

THe only explanation scientific explanation there is, is that the genetic make up of adam and eve were different than humans today.



There is no scientific explaination. Have you ever thought about God's sustaining power being the reason - remember back to the Israelites as they wondered through the desert for fourty years where the Bible tells us that their clothing did not wear, their feet did not swell, their shoes did not fall apart? This is the total opposite of what happens today. God was sustaining His people from the negative decaying effects of the second law of thermodynamics. This makes sense as God, the Creator of all the laws that govern His creation, should and does have the ability to over ride them and negate their effects.



There are also levels of death that I don't believe God considers as "moral death", the "death" of plants, for example, as all the animals ate them. Cell death may or may not be considered by God to be "moral death".



To me sin is anything harmful induced action subconciously or not and some is very premeditated.



What is sin to God? Sin is first defined in Genesis as rebellion against God and His commands... For example, Jonah was told to go to Nineveh by God, yet he sinned when he did not -- this was not "harmful" to anyone.



I lost my beleifs in a long illness, why me, and may differnt things on how i interpreted things. I've had to make the choice to try and find my faith again and it's a battle. I didnt beleive for awhile.



As have many people; the truly sad thing is that these people most likely wouldn't have given up their faith if they knew and believed the true history of death as recorded in the Bible. To find out more I suggest that you read the article Why is there Suffering and Death?

Ya I understand the things i can do and read. I understand the concept of decay after the fall, I'm very familiary with the story.

The problem i have now is faith. The bible doesn't work if you don't have faith in it. I'm on the line that the bible just seems to say a theoretical solution or reason for everything. There is a answer for everythign which i find not beleivable now.

My problem isnt knowledge its beleiving now in the stories and scriptures.
To me i'm starting to think that mankind wants an answer. They have an answer for everything.

The only reason why I beleived in Adam and eve before was because of faith. I have a hard time with that now beacause i felt such reality and it just seems like a story.

I don't think you understand what it's like to be in discomfort for a couple of years. Being diseased that long takes a huge toll on your spirit and faith.
I'm talking mentally sick and phyisically and when that goess on for months and then years you get spiritually sick as well.

When you feel such a reality a lot seems like B.S about the fall and decay and sin. I didnt create this, I didnt ask to be born. God created this situation of sin and man. Not me. I came from non-existence into his system of rules not the other way around.

 

[lilithrising]

Ya I understand the things i can do and read. I understand the concept of decay after the fall, I'm very familiary with the story.

The problem i have now is faith. The bible doesn't work if you don't have faith in it. I'm on the line that the bible just seems to say a theoretical solution or reason for everything. There is a answer for everythign which i find not beleivable now.

My problem isnt knowledge its beleiving now in the stories and scriptures.
To me i'm starting to think that mankind wants an answer. They have an answer for everything.

The only reason why I beleived in Adam and eve before was because of faith. I have a hard time with that now beacause i felt such reality and it just seems like a story.

I don't think you understand what it's like to be in discomfort for a couple of years. Being diseased that long takes a huge toll on your spirit and faith.
I'm talking mentally sick and phyisically and when that goess on for months and then years you get spiritually sick as well.

When you feel such a reality a lot seems like B.S about the fall and decay and sin. I didnt create this, I didnt ask to be born. God created this situation of sin and man. Not me. I came from non-existence into his system of rules not the other way around.

dsamuel,

I would like to recommend a book for you. This book helped me a lot when all my studies caused the bible to crumble before me. I had my biggest anger issue with the Yeshua/Jesus thing and I needed resolution, but this book is much more than that. It deals with the issues you have raised. Give it a try
The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. You can get a used copy for $3-$4.00 at half .com or Amazon.com. or your local library may have a copy.

Hope this helps,
lilithrising

 

[Galilee]

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wa (and) al (the) jaanna (Jinns[plural]) khalaq (created) naa (We) min (from) Qablu (before) min (from) naarin (flaming) assamoom (the scorching wind)

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ok, now .. the Yusuf Ali translation goes like this:
27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/15.html

but when i tried to check the explanation at the arabic commentaries i found some interesting info which raises major questions about this translation.

the arabic term is "nari as-samoom".
i checked 4 arabic commentaries:
1) Ibn Katheer
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=15&nAya=27

2)Al-Jalaleen
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=GALALEEN&nType=1&nSora=15&nAya=27

3)At-Tabari
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=15&nAya=27

4)Al-Qurtubi
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=15&nAya=27

first, let's check what Ibn-Katheer says in his commentary about "nari As-Sumoom":

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(And the Jinn, We created earlier) means before creating humans.



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(from the smokeless flame of fire.) Ibn `Abbas said, "It is the smokeless flame that kills.'' Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi said that Shu`bah narrated to them from Abu Ishaq, who said: "I visited `Umar Al-Asamm when he was sick, and he said: `Shall I not tell you a Hadith that I heard from `Abdullah bin Mas`ud He said: `This smokeless flame is one of the seventy parts of the smokeless fire from which the Jinn where created.

ok, so is it a wind ? or a smokeless flame of fire ?

then ib katheer goes:
Then he recited,




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(And the Jinn, We created earlier from the smokeless flame of fire).''' The following is found in the Sahih,



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(The angels were created from light, the Jinn were created from a smokeless flame of fire, and Adam was created from that which has been described to you.) The Ayah is intended to point out the noble nature, good essence and pure origin of Adam.



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(28. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud. '') (29. "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) of My spirit (the soul which I created for him,) then fall down, prostrating yourselves before him.'') (30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together.) (31. Except Iblis (Shaytan) - he refused to be among the prostrate.) (32. (Allah) said: "O Iblis! What is your reason for not being among the prostrate'' (33. [Iblis] said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to a human, whom You created from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.'')

attention to these points:
1) Allah asks angels to bow and kneel for adam ?!?!?! (aren't they supposed to kneel only in front of God ? )
2) Allah creates evil ? (as christians - and also jews - we believe that God doesn't create evil but it's satan who chose to act evil)
3) in this narration, it sounds like iblis (satan) fell when he refused to kneel to Adam. which reminds me of the falling angel thing.

now, when we check the other commentaris, we see that they talk about many different options to explain "nari As-samoom":
1) "smokeless fire".
2) "the hot poisons that kill"
3) "the flames of fire"
4) "a hot wind that kills"
4) pay good attention to this one- " iblis [satan] was one out the kinds of angels called (jinn) which were made of (nar as-samoom) among angels". (a falling angel .. again ?)
5) read this one carefully: "it's a smokeless fire of which lightning is made of (!!!). it's a fire bwteen the sky and the air. and when Allah gives his command it goes through the air and and hits it's target. " (so, satan is made out of the same "fire" of which lightning is made ?!?!)

the "hot wind" explanation was mentioned only in 2 of the commantaries. and it was mentioned in such a short way that gives the impression that it wasn't taken seriously. (while they talk about the other interpretations over and over again)

so, why did yusuf ali choose the weakest explanation and use it in his translation ? was he trying to hide something ?

another thing that can be obviously seen is that there's a big mess regarding this "nar as-samoom". too many different explanations are given.
so, what is satan made of ?
poisons ? flames of fire ? smokeless fire ? wind ? or .. or .. or .. (out of the other explanations that i didn't mention)

and what do muslim scholars always say in the end ? Allahu-a'alam (only Allah knows better)