May Russian Orthodox church split due to Crimea? (moved from main TAW forum)

[New Legacy]

No, it was not that way, the constitution of Mexico established that Mexico was a Catholic Country, so protestants were not allowed

As long as they promised to convert, they were allowed in.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, heck, had to happen sooner or later, NL, we actually agree! Perhaps the Apocalypse will now kick in with the Four Horsemen!

As long as they promised to convert, they were allowed in.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

The land belonged to Russia, not just the people. Crimea was for centuries part of Russia.

Crimea was Ukrainian even before Mongolians invaded Kiev.

I'm surprised how much of what you say about Texas is just plain inaccurate. The first Texans WERE NOT PROTESTANT.

Right The First Texans Were from Florida, citizens who moved from Florida to Texas, they were catholics and were loyal to Mexico, But the invasion from Protestants who never converted to catholicism was illegal, and the prohibition of slavery in México since 1821 was violated by thoes protestants.

They had to convert to Catholicism, learn Spanish, and play ball if they wanted to settle in the Texas territory when it was part of Mexico.

No, they arrived after Floridan citicenz, and Protestants never converted to catholicism, never spoke spanish and never released their black slaves.

The settlers were called empresarios. Now some squatters did come down into the territory, but most were law-abiding Anglo immigrants from the U.S. who converted to the Catholic religion and learned Spanish while registering with the government as entrepreneurs.

Have you read the report from Manuel Mier y Terán?

The Southwest of the U.S. was purchased from Mexico after the Mexican-American War in which Mexico got its tushy clobbered. The Mexicans didn't have to sign the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo if they thought it unfair, and what you often don't hear is that the U.S. Government assumed over $3 million in Mexican debt over the deal! Texas already wanted to secede from Mexico. That was something the Mexican and Anglo Texans agreed on and fought side by side against the Mexican government.

God will make justice in history, and He is doing it.

And if you look at it, over the past 30 years Mexico has done a great job of taking the land back through illegal immigration invading the land while inhaling our government welfare and food stamp programs. I live in a de facto Mexico already being a Californian!

Divine Justice

What aspects of Vladimir Putin make him a Nazi? As far as I see, he's opposed to nationalist socialism, he hasn't proven himself a racist

¿Tartars? ¿Greek catholics in crimea? ¿Kiev Patriarchate churches stolen by Moscow patriarchate priests and russian soldiers? ¿Expulsion of Catholic Priests from Crimea?

by any stretch, doesn't show any hints of fascism,

Perhaps Mother Russia Supremacy claims are very humble.

is a Christian,

And an ex KGB

and hasn't conquered much of anything? Hitler was anti-Semitic,

and Hitler Was Anti-gay too.

a national socialist, was an atheist at worst and a believer in Norse mythology at best, and slaughtered millions. Not a good comparison.

Hitler and Putin have Leader cult fanatics, Both use military to invade countries to expand their Reicht, Both want to control Europe's destiny, and both have historical claims. Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia, Austria wanted to join Germany.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The "divine justice" comment actually did make me laugh out loud, Alonso! If this is justice, man, God help us all. My town has been taken over by illegals and now we have heaps of crime, gang-bangers, drugs, our emergency rooms overflowing with illegal Mexicans who want something for nothing, and our welfare system and prisons are loaded with these folks. Yeah, it's pretty wonderful! Mexico shares some lovely treasures! :o

As far as the Hitler and Putin comparison, that's about the weakest comparison I've read in CF in years. One guy invades pretty much all of Europe with a few exceptions and comes close to taking over the world, and Putin is forceful with South Ossetia and Chechnya, and goes into tiny Crimea and you put them in the same category? One guy kills tens of millions and comes within inches of global conquest, another guy rules over a country that hasn't accomplished much conquest and hasn't even killed anywhere near the numbers and isn't anti-Semitic, isn't a national socialist fanatic, and is former KGB...gotcha! LOL

Crimea was Ukrainian even before Mongolians invaded Kiev.



Right The First Texans Were from Florida, citizens who moved from Florida to Texas, they were catholics and were loyal to Mexico, But the invasion from Protestants who never converted to catholicism was illegal, and the prohibition of slavery in México since 1821 was violated by thoes protestants.



No, they arrived after Floridan citicenz, and Protestants never converted to catholicism, never spoke spanish and never released their black slaves.



Have you read the report from Manuel Mier y Terán?



God will make justice in history, and He is doing it.



Divine Justice



¿Tartars? ¿Greek catholics in crimea? ¿Kiev Patriarchate churches stolen by Moscow patriarchate priests and russian soldiers? ¿Expulsion of Catholic Priests from Crimea?



Perhaps Mother Russia Supremacy claims are very humble.



And an ex KGB



and Hitler Was Anti-gay too.




Hitler and Putin have Leader cult fanatics, Both use military to invade countries to expand their Reicht, Both want to control Europe's destiny, and both have historical claims. Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia, Austria wanted to join Germany.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Alonso_Castillo

Crimea was Ukrainian even before Mongolians invaded Kiev.- YO?! when it was? years,please.

“At this moment, all Ukrainian Greek Catholic life in Crimea is paralyzed,” - they had life in Crimea? joke. Some of pastors can have problems - because "dont play in Revolution, dont be war-makers and dont bless on something illegall".

“We fear our churches will be confiscated and our clergy arrested.” - any proofs? For example, how many clergy of UAC are already arrested in Russia?

¿Tartars? ¿Greek catholics in crimea? - whats wrong with them?

Kiev Patriarchate churches stolen by Moscow patriarchate priests - where i can read about it?

Hitler and Putin have Leader cult fanatics, Both use military to invade countries to expand their Reicht, Both want to control Europe's destiny, - Putin likes money and he wanted - to sell gas to EU. Wanted so much so agreed to present around 15billions of USD to Ukraine in December as minimum. Goverment was against it, but PUTIN said - we need to help to our BROTHERS. lol. Ukraninains took part of money and then orgainised Maidan. Never try to "throw" on money mr. Putin. He dislike it very much.
And by the way, mega-hitler Putin said - who say russia is for Ruskies (ethnic Russians) is idiot. All so-so normal pro-Ruskie nationalists are under goverment press.

Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia - as minimum, folk of Crimea didnt want to live under Goverment of clowns and nazi.

 

[Steinbeck]

What's your opinion of the OCA?

What does the OCA have to do with Ukraine?

 

[Steinbeck]

And the Moscow patriarchate was stolen from Kyiv.

That is not at all accurate.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

google translation of message from Crimea to Ukraine:
Maydanovskim all and not very Ukrainian, who now so loudly shout " Crimeans - our citizens ," posvyaschaetsya.Ne you woke up late , dear ?
When in the early 90s came to the Crimea " friendship coaches " to teach us how to love Ukraine - we are your citizens? When we were pitted against the Tatars - we were your citizens?
When in 1995 the Verkhovna Rada of Crimea deprived of the presidency and rewrote our Constitution , spit on the international and its own legislation - we were your citizens?
When in Kiev during a power failure in one of the houses joked : " Oh, Crimea gave light " - we were your citizens?
When universities western and central Ukraine tacitly refused to accept graduates Crimean schools - we were your citizens?
When Tymoshenko shouted : " I'll put Sevastopol on your knees! " - We were your citizens?
When the Ukrainian government took kickbacks for the sale of land the Nikitsky Botanical Gardens - we were your citizens?
When Ukrainian officials have redeemed our businesses , bringing them to bankruptcy and allowed to cut in the literal sense of the word - we are your citizens?
When the power to allow the sale Bagerovsky Airport with a unique runway capable of receiving and Buran shuttles - we were your citizens?
When we impose the "heroes" who served the Nazi regime, but our history overwrote - we were your citizens?
When in school history textbooks created the image of the Crimea - a hotbed of separatism - we were your citizens?
When forcibly corresponded anthem Sevastopol - we were your citizens?
When we tried to select a language - we are your citizens?
When you cried, " Moskal knives ! " - We were your citizens?
And finally, when we decided to have their say and to protect themselves from the horror and chaos reigning in the country - we were your citizens? No, not even " polite people " and those 10 guys : 4 of 6 Berkut and local residents blocked the Perekop and stood there for three days without a weapon , with the full understanding that they would die first. Here they were your citizens?
The correct answer is - NO .
Leaving the USSR , Ukraine and Crimea misappropriated '22 acted as an invader in the occupied territories , only an afterthought when the peninsula made ​​a desperate leap towards Russia. And sentimental ladies from Kiev, Khmelnitsky , Vinnitsa, Odessa, Poltava , etc can wring as many hands and moan blozhikam .
No, we are not your citizens . We do not object or animal to be someone else's . Crimea - a small guerrilla unit . And we have already returned home. ( c)
Nina Shevchenko ( Gavrilina )

 

[Steinbeck]

I am honestly not sure what the details of the transfer of Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 were.

Apparently, Khrushchev wanted to get power after Stalin, but he needed the support of the Ukrainian Soviet deputies. But he needed them to keep silent over his role in the artificial famine, so he signed over Crimea to Ukraine.

 

[Steinbeck]

Your point is ??

And my GodPapa , my confessor and all the Ukrainians I know also come from Western Ukraine and they don't support Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate .

We could all make comments like this and it will get us nowhere.

It just shows that there is a diversity of opinion.

 

[buzuxi02]

First off Texas was its own country with its own president when it joined the U.S. That's why it has retained its own flag. It was only Mexican for a few years, before that it was under French control.

Not that this issue has anything to do with OP. Hopefully everything will work out in the end. In 10 years from now all this will be forgotten.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

As far as the Hitler and Putin comparison, that's about the weakest comparison I've read in CF in years. One guy invades pretty much all of Europe with a few exceptions and comes close to taking over the world, and Putin is forceful with South Ossetia and Chechnya, and goes into tiny Crimea and you put them in the same category? One guy kills tens of millions and comes within inches of global conquest, another guy rules over a country that hasn't accomplished much conquest and hasn't even killed anywhere near the numbers and isn't anti-Semitic, isn't a national socialist fanatic, and is former KGB...gotcha! LOL

You're obviously missing that the comparison is between Putin now and Hitler in 1938, when he was going after smaller states like the Austria and the Czech Sudentenland.

Of course, people loved Hitler then, too. Chamberlain could proudly declare that if they just gave Hitler what he wanted at Munich, we would have "peace in our time."

 

[ArmyMatt]

You're obviously missing that the comparison is between Putin now and Hitler in 1938, when he was going after smaller states like the Austria and the Czech Sudentenland.

Of course, people loved Hitler then, too. Chamberlain could proudly declare that if they just gave Hitler what he wanted at Munich, we would have "peace in our time."

I agree. while there is nothing in Putin that seems genocidal or psycho like Hitler, Hitler did start off by merely trying to restore Germanic people into one nation that would be for them. it was after all of that, that he started expanding. Musselini did the same thing as well, starting off to merely restore the old Roman Empire that had been lost.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No, I'm not obviously missing the point. I know that Hitler started small, duped everyone, and caught the world unawares as he then proceeded to conquer Europe. I got it. I'm a fan of history. But the problem is, do we SERIOUSLY think that Putin is intending to march into the rest of Ukraine followed by Belarus and Latvia, then Serbia and Kosovo and Croatia and then into Albania and Greece and over into Italy then onto Germany, etc.? I still say it's a bad comparison. Annexing a small area that was traditionally part of Russia is not akin to world conquest in baby steps. Yes, I know Hitler claimed Austria was once part of Germany and should be again, so you might 'go there' with that argument, but I'd still say you're wrong. Hitler didn't live in the nuclear age, Putin does. Hitler also already had his entire country worshipping him like a god whereas Putin already has opposition in Russia and has not created a fascist system that cannot threaten him. While Putin IS heavy-handed and has "gotten rid of" many of his enemies and threats, he still has some checks and balances and a lot of $$$$ at risk if this behavior continues. It's not the 1930's, and despite the U.N. being wimpy, the League of Nations wimpitude was far worse. In addition, Putin is more of an opportunist whereas Hitler had a serious philosophy that he thought he had to impose on all of mankind. He had an ethnic cleansing vision, manifest destiny, hatred and evil, delusions of world domination with he as emperor of it in mind. I think Putin is full of himself, but no more than Bush was or Obama is now. He saw an opportunity with Crimea and took it. Hardly WWII all over again....

Frankly I'm tired of the WWII comparisons. With every single action in the world, we get "this is Hitler all over again!"

You're obviously missing that the comparison is between Putin now and Hitler in 1938, when he was going after smaller states like the Austria and the Czech Sudentenland.

Of course, people loved Hitler then, too. Chamberlain could proudly declare that if they just gave Hitler what he wanted at Munich, we would have "peace in our time."

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Nobody believed that Hitler would go beyond Austria until he did. But it is true, I don't think Putin is that dumby, he only wants to control gasoduct routes from middle east to Europe to keep gas prices up as he wants to sell russian gas.

Crimea is a bridge to Armenia and then to Iran that way you avoid crossing Suez Channel with Gas Ship Containers. Putin wants to be part of the Iranian bussines.

As Well as Hitler believed that Germany was unfairly punished in the first World War, as well putin feels as an unfair story the split of the USSR. He would have rather the conversión of it to a more free economy without a breaking of political bonds.

The patriarchate of Moscow feels that west is removing the spiritual subjection of Ex USSR citizens to his rule. Estonia is a clear example of it. Have you read the letters that Moscow patriarchate and Constantinomple patriarchete exchanged about Ravena's Declaration in the Orthodox - Catholic Dialogue comisión?

 

[Melethiel]

No, I'm not obviously missing the point. I know that Hitler started small, duped everyone, and caught the world unawares as he then proceeded to conquer Europe. I got it. I'm a fan of history. But the problem is, do we SERIOUSLY think that Putin is intending to march into the rest of Ukraine followed by Belarus and Latvia, then Serbia and Kosovo and Croatia and then into Albania and Greece and over into Italy then onto Germany, etc.? I still say it's a bad comparison. Annexing a small area that was traditionally part of Russia is not akin to world conquest in baby steps. Yes, I know Hitler claimed Austria was once part of Germany and should be again, so you might 'go there' with that argument, but I'd still say you're wrong. Hitler didn't live in the nuclear age, Putin does. Hitler also already had his entire country worshipping him like a god whereas Putin already has opposition in Russia and has not created a fascist system that cannot threaten him. While Putin IS heavy-handed and has "gotten rid of" many of his enemies and threats, he still has some checks and balances and a lot of $$$$ at risk if this behavior continues. It's not the 1930's, and despite the U.N. being wimpy, the League of Nations wimpitude was far worse. In addition, Putin is more of an opportunist whereas Hitler had a serious philosophy that he thought he had to impose on all of mankind. He had an ethnic cleansing vision, manifest destiny, hatred and evil, delusions of world domination with he as emperor of it in mind. I think Putin is full of himself, but no more than Bush was or Obama is now. He saw an opportunity with Crimea and took it. Hardly WWII all over again....

Frankly I'm tired of the WWII comparisons. With every single action in the world, we get "this is Hitler all over again!"

When Putin moves his troops away from the eastern border of Ukraine, I'd be willing to believe that he has no intention of invading the rest of the country. As it is, I don't buy "exercises" with 50k troops conveniently located right there.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

When Putin moves his troops away from the eastern border of Ukraine, I'd be willing to believe that he has no intention of invading the rest of the country. As it is, I don't buy "exercises" with 50k troops conveniently located right there.

It is a Way to say:

"Do what I want or..."

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

No, I'm not obviously missing the point. I know that Hitler started small, duped everyone, and caught the world unawares as he then proceeded to conquer Europe. I got it. I'm a fan of history. But the problem is, do we SERIOUSLY think that Putin is intending to march into the rest of Ukraine followed by Belarus and Latvia, then Serbia and Kosovo and Croatia and then into Albania and Greece and over into Italy then onto Germany, etc.? I still say it's a bad comparison. Annexing a small area that was traditionally part of Russia is not akin to world conquest in baby steps. Yes, I know Hitler claimed Austria was once part of Germany and should be again, so you might 'go there' with that argument, but I'd still say you're wrong. Hitler didn't live in the nuclear age, Putin does. Hitler also already had his entire country worshipping him like a god whereas Putin already has opposition in Russia and has not created a fascist system that cannot threaten him. While Putin IS heavy-handed and has "gotten rid of" many of his enemies and threats, he still has some checks and balances and a lot of $$$$ at risk if this behavior continues. It's not the 1930's, and despite the U.N. being wimpy, the League of Nations wimpitude was far worse. In addition, Putin is more of an opportunist whereas Hitler had a serious philosophy that he thought he had to impose on all of mankind. He had an ethnic cleansing vision, manifest destiny, hatred and evil, delusions of world domination with he as emperor of it in mind. I think Putin is full of himself, but no more than Bush was or Obama is now. He saw an opportunity with Crimea and took it. Hardly WWII all over again....

Frankly I'm tired of the WWII comparisons. With every single action in the world, we get "this is Hitler all over again!"

All fair points. I don't particularly like Hitler comparisons either. But your first response didn't seem to indicate that you understood the comparison. This response is considerably more on point.

 

[tapi]

I fear quite soon Russia might be pushing on the Finnish borders on a pretense of "protecting" the Russian population here.. and I would unfortunately not be too surprised to see some of the people posting here supporting such actions. I pray and hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm a teacher, 16 years seniority and a history fanatic. Trust me, I got it.

All fair points. I don't particularly like Hitler comparisons either. But your first response didn't seem to indicate that you understood the comparison. This response is considerably more on point.