May Russian Orthodox church split due to Crimea? (moved from main TAW forum)

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I'm sorry you feel that way, my Lutheran brother. You can indeed study the goings-on in the Balkans, but living there and seeing the big picture up close and understanding it all in the context of the Russian and Ukrainian mindset rather than through Western lenses is something you do not have. And you won't have.

I think you come in here hoping Orthodox Christians will throw Russians off the bus and run over them, but we offer you another perspective because we go to church on Sunday with these good folks and they have come from this land and most have many, many family members at home in Russia or Crimea who live and suffer through this. With respect, we know more than you do about it. Just this past Sunday I sat with a lovely couple. This woman IS FROM Crimea itself! She's from the very spot where the Russians currently occupy. She was THRILLED the Russians are there! Her mom and family are just full of joy! They see it as liberation and returning home. The media has presented it to you as an invasion, an annexation, a conquest, whereas the Russians and Crimeans are seeing reunion.

Rusmeister, a frequent poster in here at TAW, has really opened my eyes and taught me to see world affairs not through what I hear on the news, hear on talk radio, or my president tells me. Rus lives in Russia and frequently reminds us that these things are more complicated than we like to believe. And he's right! He has helped me a lot in seeing the big picture. I'm more cautious in my appraisals and arrogant Western chauvinism and jingoism. I think some posters who come in here with a jingoistic approach get humbled or angry when they see that, though imperfect and extremely flawed, Russia isn't always in the wrong and the bad guy of Cold War days.

You don't like me bringing up America's past misdeeds, but if you really put them in context, it becomes silly for us to constantly pontificate to the East how to live when we break our own rules regularly ever single decade. Look at America through Eastern eyes and you see a country that stole land from Native Americans, built their industry on the back of black slaves, dropped a nuke, "manifest destiny" conquered the pacific and created a mini-empire, and after WWII became the world police while using the CIA to run drugs in Southeast Asia, create coups de'etats, install puppet regimes, train terrorists, invade countries, and speak out of both sides of their mouth. Why should Russians trust us either? Do you understand that perspective?

You are weary of "America-bashing," but many of us are tired of jingoism and Russia-bashing. We may pull out the Iraq invasion card, but you folks pull out the "Putin is a former KGB!!!" card every time. And in here you basically say that we in TAW must be nutburgers because we actually consider that Putin might really be an Orthodox Christian!? HUH? How in the world do we know he is or isn't? The guy was chrismated, regularly participates in Divine Liturgy and dialogues productively with the Patriarch of Russia. He has fed tons of rubles into the Orthodox Church and they have been building new churches and re-energizing the faith there in an impressive fashion. The man might be a hypocrite, or he might be an Orthodox Christian, though flawed and sinful, who thinks he's doing right for Russia and protecting the interests of the Russian Federation?

You're tired of America-bashing, and I'm frankly sick of people not being intellectually honest. I can be honest about the pimples, warts, blemishes, and scars of my country. Born and raised American, and I'll die here. I've been to many other countries, and I'm always THRILLED to return home. I'm an American through and through. Dad was a Vietnam vet, two grandpas in WWII, ancestry in the Civil War and Revolution. My mom is a DAR member and we're Americans. I'm not some flag-burning hippie wacko, but I CAN and WILL criticize my country when she doesn't live up to her values. And often she doesn't. My intellectual honesty, my faith, my integrity cannot and will not endorse a jingoistic patriotism. My patriotism is second to my faith in Christ.

Please, find a post where I have said that America is perfect, or better than everyone else, or has a right to preemptively invade other countries, or is free from crime. Please.

You complain about that as though I've actually done it. But I'm complaining about something that has been done in almost every single post responding to me.

Moreover, you act like you know what I think about Putin in general, and you address me as though I get my information from the president and American news media, and you address me as though I have no sympathies for Russians and the Russian peple. First of all, I was a politics major in college. My information comes from books. Second of all, you know very well at this point that I get information from Ukraine directly via my wife. Third, I have been to Russia (though I have not spent as much time in-country as in Ukraine) and have close friends who live there, and my own white Anglo-Saxon family has a longstanding friendship with several Russian families and a love for Russian culture. And fourth, I actually was a big supporter of President Putin until 2008, because I absolutely believe in a strong Russia- just not at the expense of Georgian and Ukrainian sovereignty.

But I'm sure this post, too, will somehow become about America and America's misdeeds and Americans' ignorance.
 
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Anhelyna

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Your point is ??

And my GodPapa , my confessor and all the Ukrainians I know also come from Western Ukraine and they don't support Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate .

We could all make comments like this and it will get us nowhere.
 
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Melethiel

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I'm sorry you feel that way, my Lutheran brother. You can indeed study the goings-on in the Balkans, but living there and seeing the big picture up close and understanding it all in the context of the Russian and Ukrainian mindset rather than through Western lenses is something you do not have. And you won't have.

I think you come in here hoping Orthodox Christians will throw Russians off the bus and run over them, but we offer you another perspective because we go to church on Sunday with these good folks and they have come from this land and most have many, many family members at home in Russia or Crimea who live and suffer through this. With respect, we know more than you do about it. Just this past Sunday I sat with a lovely couple. This woman IS FROM Crimea itself! She's from the very spot where the Russians currently occupy. She was THRILLED the Russians are there! Her mom and family are just full of joy! They see it as liberation and returning home. The media has presented it to you as an invasion, an annexation, a conquest, whereas the Russians and Crimeans are seeing reunion.

Rusmeister, a frequent poster in here at TAW, has really opened my eyes and taught me to see world affairs not through what I hear on the news, hear on talk radio, or my president tells me. Rus lives in Russia and frequently reminds us that these things are more complicated than we like to believe. And he's right! He has helped me a lot in seeing the big picture. I'm more cautious in my appraisals and arrogant Western chauvinism and jingoism. I think some posters who come in here with a jingoistic approach get humbled or angry when they see that, though imperfect and extremely flawed, Russia isn't always in the wrong and the bad guy of Cold War days.

You don't like me bringing up America's past misdeeds, but if you really put them in context, it becomes silly for us to constantly pontificate to the East how to live when we break our own rules regularly ever single decade. Look at America through Eastern eyes and you see a country that stole land from Native Americans, built their industry on the back of black slaves, dropped a nuke, "manifest destiny" conquered the pacific and created a mini-empire, and after WWII became the world police while using the CIA to run drugs in Southeast Asia, create coups de'etats, install puppet regimes, train terrorists, invade countries, and speak out of both sides of their mouth. Why should Russians trust us either? Do you understand that perspective?

You are weary of "America-bashing," but many of us are tired of jingoism and Russia-bashing. We may pull out the Iraq invasion card, but you folks pull out the "Putin is a former KGB!!!" card every time. And in here you basically say that we in TAW must be nutburgers because we actually consider that Putin might really be an Orthodox Christian!? HUH? How in the world do we know he is or isn't? The guy was chrismated, regularly participates in Divine Liturgy and dialogues productively with the Patriarch of Russia. He has fed tons of rubles into the Orthodox Church and they have been building new churches and re-energizing the faith there in an impressive fashion. The man might be a hypocrite, or he might be an Orthodox Christian, though flawed and sinful, who thinks he's doing right for Russia and protecting the interests of the Russian Federation?

You're tired of America-bashing, and I'm frankly sick of people not being intellectually honest. I can be honest about the pimples, warts, blemishes, and scars of my country. Born and raised American, and I'll die here. I've been to many other countries, and I'm always THRILLED to return home. I'm an American through and through. Dad was a Vietnam vet, two grandpas in WWII, ancestry in the Civil War and Revolution. My mom is a DAR member and we're Americans. I'm not some flag-burning hippie wacko, but I CAN and WILL criticize my country when she doesn't live up to her values. And often she doesn't. My intellectual honesty, my faith, my integrity cannot and will not endorse a jingoistic patriotism. My patriotism is second to my faith in Christ.

I'm glad that your friends are happy about the events in Crimea. All I know is that my friends and family who currently live in Ukraine are terrified of a Russian invasion. My grandmother is nearly suicidal, worried about going back to the Soviet Union and the return of Ukraine to being nothing more than "the" Ukraine, that backwoods country full of hicks. She certainly doesn't think of Russia as a brother, but as the aggressor, angry that Ukraine would dare to look away from glorious mother Russia and seek ties with the West. The Crimean Tatars in particular (who unlike the Russians in Crimea have no other homeland) have already had their lands seized, and are worried about the prospect of ethnic cleansing. But they're Muslim, so who cares, they're fair game.

There's the Ukrainian mindset for you, and I promise, I understand it quite well.

And for those criticizing the Wests involvement in the matter, the Ukrainian people asked the West to step in. If Crimea (with their hastily installed puppet government) is allowed to "invite" Russia, then Ukraine is allowed to ask for western assistance.
 
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While I know it's a Dragnet quote, keep in my that I'm a dude! ^_^

Like I said, I'm done talking about this. Rusmeister is dead-on. This is unproductive. My church is praying for the safety and well-being of all Ukrainians including Western and Eastern ones, Ukrainians and Russians. Pray for no blood shed. Pray for peace. Pray for justice. And for me, I will pray that the Orthodox faith may be shared and grow in Ukraine. That's just my hope. Whatever is good for Orthodoxy is good for Ukraine imho.

Just the facts, Ma'am. I have said nothing against Orthodox theology or practice.
 
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@Anhelyna

all the Ukrainians I know - there are different "Ukrainians". If Ukraine would be solid so there were not problems as Crimea for example.

@Melethiel

Its easy to "load" people which cant know context, isn't it?

My grandmother - My grandmom was leaving Moscow back to home (east Ukraine) at last saturday. She had conversation with my uncle and he said: if i'll be arrested or something else (bandits on streets organised lawlessness) so prepared some money for you. My mom asked her to stay at Russia and ,of course, she didnt because son is there. So my mom had one talking with grandmother after her arriving at home about situation in Ukraine. Words of granmom were: NEVER ASK ME AGAIN ABOUT UKRAINE. She cant see what is going on in home with that crazy barricades, nazies, bandits and other "freedoms stuff".
There's the Ukrainian mindset for you - actually, i see one main trend of Ukraininan mindset - TO HATE. It helps to escape meeting with real problems like bankruptcy of country, but only for a time. Whats about with price on gas which will be installed for population because of credits condition from new west brothers?

the Ukrainian people asked the West to step in - may be. But dont think that NON-Ukranians asked about it also.

If Crimea (with their hastily installed puppet government) is allowed to "invite" - first "Ukrainians" scream "Moscovites on the knives, on the knives", "hang Moscovites on", "who doesnt jump is Moscovite". then "dislike,Moscovites? so bag-railway station-Russia". Then some part of"Stupid" Moscovites have realized it - BAG (homes, lands,...)-railway station - Russia. "Ukranians", wanna make a face like you are surprised by situation with Crimea after all of it? and dont call goverment a hastily puppet, look first at your illegal installed.

then Ukraine is allowed to ask for western assistance - its first that Current goverments mob of clowns did.

PS the prospect of ethnic cleansing. But they're Muslim... - everybody need start to cry? really? i think no. Who need some antidode - ask serbian brothers&sisters about living of their relatives in Kosovo. Not enough? check how tartars live in Russian Tatarstan. Only muslims terrorists will be in troubles and somebodies who "under" ukranians nazies too close.
 
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There is something important we have to take into account, Russia is foreing food dependant, Would Russia stand a food blockade?

By the way, The European Unión is in conversationswith MercoSur, for a Free Trade Agreement, would Europe set as clause to Brasil and Argentina to be aligned with Europe's interests and forbid them to sell food to Russia?

agricultural-imports-and-exports.png
 
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Anhelyna

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I'm not quoting 'Trying to be Orthodox's post - it's too long for that.

But it does show very clearly that we all have our own views on the situation - and remember that none of us here are actually IN Ukraine or Crimea at present.

Instead of talking that Ukrainians are this or that and want this or that , and Russians want this or that and are this or that.

Instead of talking about will a Church split because of what's happening / has happened in a fairly small area

Let us all instead, as we are now half way through the Great Fast , start to think and pray about the innocent people of ALL sides who have suffered / are still suffering because of the conflict.

Let us keep THE PEOPLE in our prayers

Remember what we all prayed as recently as last Sunday ?

Спаси, Господи, людей Твоїх і благослови насліддя Твоє, перемоги благовірному народові на супротивників даруй і хрестом Твоїм охорони люд Твій.

Lord have mercy
 
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RUSSIA - UKRAINE Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddling" in politics and taking a pro-West stance - Asia News

Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddling" in politics and taking a pro-West stance


by Nina Achmatova



Metropolitan Hilarion, head of the Department for External Church Relations, slams Catholic Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk of Kyiv for his positions. He also says he asked the Holy See for explanations. Diplomacy is faltering over the religious divisions.

Moscow (AsiaNews) - The Moscow Patriarchate strongly condemned the Greek-Catholic (Uniate) Church in Ukraine for "meddling" in politics, in the current crisis in the country. For its part, Russia continues to accuse the Ukraine of "religious intolerance," a charge the latter sharply rejects, noting instead how all religious denominations have come together to oppose violence and express support for Europe.

For Metropolitan Hilarion, head of the Synodal Department for External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, major archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and his predecessor, Lubomyr Husar, took a "very clear position from the beginning of the civil conflict, which grew unfortunately into an armed bloody conflict".

In his view, the Uniates not only advocated integration with Europe, "but even called for Western countries to intervene more decisively in the situation in Ukraine."

Speaking on The Church and the world, a programme on the Russia-24 TV channel, Hilarion also noted that "Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk and [. . .] Filaret (Denisenko) even went to the United States, [. . .] to the State Department and asked for US intervention in Ukrainian affairs."
 
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Why Russia is persecuiting Catholics?

Russia targets churches in Crimean crackdown
WORLD | Russia targets churches in Crimean crackdown | Julia A. Seymour | March 24, 2014

Amid the turmoil between Ukraine and Russia, Crimean Catholics fear Russian oppression and say their church already is suffering great persecution.

“At this moment, all Ukrainian Greek Catholic life in Crimea is paralyzed,” Father Volodymyr Zhdan told Catholic News Agency (CNA) the day Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a treaty annexing Crimea.

Ahead of the March 16 referendum, in which an overwhelming majority of Crimeans voted to request the Russian annexation, Father Mykhailo Milchakovskyi, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest, told Catholic News Service uncertainty about the church’s future had caused many congregants to sell their homes and migrate to other parts of Ukraine. “Our Church has no legal status in the Russian Federation, so it’s uncertain which laws will be applied if Crimea is annexed,” he said. “We fear our churches will be confiscated and our clergy arrested.”

International Christian Concern’s Ryan Morgan said church leaders have a reason to be worried: “If Russia refuses to grant Catholic or certain Ukrainian Orthodox Churches registration in the newly Russian Crimea, it is a sure sign that far worse persecution is just around the corner.”

Catholic news outlets reported pro-Russian forces have been anonymously threatening Ukrainian Catholics in recent weeks. Vatican Radio reported that the threats pressured Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests to leave Crimea. In one instance, a note left at the home of an arrested priest said, “A lesson to all Vatican agents.”
 
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New Legacy

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From What I see, some of you really think that Russia should control Europe development, or that russia should invade east Ukraine which is an independent country only because east ukrainians want to be russians.

Well to me it is clear that if russia would like to help east Ukrainians to be russians then Russia only had had to admit them as citizens of Russia, as inmigrants, there is no justification to take lands from Ukraine.

To me it is also clear that the same argument works for the whole southwestern of USA, USA took Texas after illegal protestant inmigrants invaded Mexican territory and claimed to be independent from Mexico. And the invasion of Mexico to take From New México and Colorado to California was as well as illegal.

Now, We know that such is the way that an imperialistic power uses to do it, Does that mean that such thigs should be justified under dumb arguments of anti - sodomite flaming comments? Anti-sodomitism justifies illegality? It is also interesting that Nazis were not only antijews but anti-gay, and Nazis justified invasion under ethnic and historical reivinidications. To me, Putin is far more nazi than Merkel.

Actually, the immigrants to Texas were legal, in fact, Mexico encouraged it. Mexico wanted to bring in Americans to northern Mexico, as it was not well populated. They believed that it might be retaken by Spain.
 
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Actually, the immigrants to Texas were legal, in fact, Mexico encouraged it. Mexico wanted to bring in Americans to northern Mexico, as it was not well populated. They believed that it might be retaken by Spain.

No, it was not that way, the constitution of Mexico established that Mexico was a Catholic Country, so protestants were not allowed
 
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The land belonged to Russia, not just the people. Crimea was for centuries part of Russia.

I'm surprised how much of what you say about Texas is just plain inaccurate. The first Texans WERE NOT PROTESTANT. They had to convert to Catholicism, learn Spanish, and play ball if they wanted to settle in the Texas territory when it was part of Mexico. The settlers were called empresarios. Now some squatters did come down into the territory, but most were law-abiding Anglo immigrants from the U.S. who converted to the Catholic religion and learned Spanish while registering with the government as entrepreneurs.

The Southwest of the U.S. was purchased from Mexico after the Mexican-American War in which Mexico got its tushy clobbered. The Mexicans didn't have to sign the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo if they thought it unfair, and what you often don't hear is that the U.S. Government assumed over $3 million in Mexican debt over the deal! Texas already wanted to secede from Mexico. That was something the Mexican and Anglo Texans agreed on and fought side by side against the Mexican government.

And if you look at it, over the past 30 years Mexico has done a great job of taking the land back through illegal immigration invading the land while inhaling our government welfare and food stamp programs. I live in a de facto Mexico already being a Californian!

What aspects of Vladimir Putin make him a Nazi? As far as I see, he's opposed to nationalist socialism, he hasn't proven himself a racist by any stretch, doesn't show any hints of fascism, is a Christian, and hasn't conquered much of anything? Hitler was anti-Semitic, a national socialist, was an atheist at worst and a believer in Norse mythology at best, and slaughtered millions. Not a good comparison.

From What I see, some of you really think that Russia should control Europe development, or that russia should invade east Ukraine which is an independent country only because east ukrainians want to be russians.

Well to me it is clear that if russia would like to help east Ukrainians to be russians then Russia only had had to admit them as citizens of Russia, as inmigrants, there is no justification to take lands from Ukraine.

To me it is also clear that the same argument works for the whole southwestern of USA, USA took Texas after illegal protestant inmigrants invaded Mexican territory and claimed to be independent from Mexico. And the invasion of Mexico to take From New México and Colorado to California was as well as illegal.

Now, We know that such is the way that an imperialistic power uses to do it, Does that mean that such thigs should be justified under dumb arguments of anti - sodomite flaming comments? Anti-sodomitism justifies illegality? It is also interesting that Nazis were not only antijews but anti-gay, and Nazis justified invasion under ethnic and historical reivinidications. To me, Putin is far more nazi than Merkel.
 
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