Matthew's Olivet Discourse Extremely Troubling

[PrincetonGuy]

I am having the probably one of the biggest faith shakers of the my walk with the Lord yet with this verse. I've read so many articles about the different views of this discourse but I am not convince by any of them. To Preterists, Jesus return was in 70 A.D. and that the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) was Antiochus Epiphanes, the warning to the Christians to flee to the mountains as an early warning sign to flee the judgement to come on Jerusalem and whatnot rather than Jesus' final coming in which no one will be able to flee. On the surface, it seems to make sense right? Nero/Antiochus, as the Anti-Christ and the AoD, the ability to avoid this catastrophe, the coming of phony Messiahs, and "no stone left atop another". But then I look at verse 29 where Jesus says that IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation, that He will be seen coming on the clouds and that the whole EARTH will mourn and He will gather all of His saints from the corners of the WORLD, not Judea. And then he says that this generation will not pass away until these things happen! First, I've heard the Preterist argument that verse 29-31 is figurative taken from Daniel 7, Isaiah 13, and Ezekiel but the fact that he says that he will gather his elect from all corners of the earth seems to be unarguably literal as I also have heard that meaning "to preach the gospel" to all corners of the earth which frankly, I want to buy but I don't. Even the following verses about no one knowing the day or hour except the Father and the FINAL judgement throws me in for a loop! Goodness gracious this is troubling me. I can't believe that this verse can mean that Jesus return was at 70 A.D. but I also can't believe that He hasn't already returned in 70 A.D.! Please, those of you who have wrestled with the verse but have been given understanding by God, shed your light on this! I've been praying that God would give me a sufficient answer but none have been shown to me yet.

Scholars of the Greek text of Matthew’s gospel have studied the Olivet discourse in very great detail. Popular pastors and Bible teachers have done far too much talking and very little studying because they get paid for talking but not for studying. Very detailed recent commentaries on the Geek text of Matthew’s gospel include the commentaries by Donald A. Hagner (two volumes, 1993, 1995), John Nolland, 2005 (John Nolland is also the author of a three-volume commentary on Luke’s gospel, 1989, 1993, 1993), and R. T. France, 2007. Each one of these theologically conservative commentaries contains over 1,000 pages of information compiled from hundreds of published studies on all or part of Matthew’s gospel. Noland’s commentary contains 1,579 pages of information and would serve as a very good starting place for the study of Matthew’s gospel and the Olivet discourse in particular.

 

[Chris35]

Here closest ive come to answers.

His Second Coming

The answers i believe lay in the muslim religion, alot of what they say lines up with the christian book of revelations.

Now i also know there are alot of muslim sects in islam, however according to the quran all muslims must unite under there messiah, and what he says is truth.

What i can see, muslims are currently waiting on there messiah, which will most likely come after the gospel has been spread to all nations.

The mahdi taking over israel and the holy site, which will lead Israel running to the wilderness.

The world going through tribulation due to the madhi but israel turning back to God in the wilderness, and being refined. Ect.

Its a big topic, and i only researched enough to understand that muslims have to play a big part in the end times. I suggest you do some research of your own.

Also note that, I brought this up, to show that it is very possible that the end times are a future event.

 

[Clare73]

We are in no way immortal. We do not have a "immortal spirit" (that is pagan teaching - Greek philosophy) ... we receive immortality when Jesus returns ... His Word is very clear on that.

That is also the teaching of the Sadducees who denied immortality of the spirit.

However, the NT apostle who received his doctrine from heaven (2Co 12:1-10) disagrees with you and the Sadducees in 2Co 5:6-8 and Php 1:21-24, where he shows that our first death (physical) does not mean loss of being (death of our spirit).

Paul tells us that death is "to be absent from the body," not absent from existence;
and it "is to be at home with the Lord," not in oblivion.
He says he "prefers to be away from the body;" that "it is better by far to depart;" that "to die is gain."
The oblivion of non-existence is not "gain," or "better by far," or something "to be preferred."

He tells us death is better because he "will be with Christ," not in the oblivion of non-existence.
Why would he "desire to depart" rather than to continue living, especially when "to live is Christ,"
if departing meant only the oblivion of non-existence until the resurrection?
Clearly, Paul does not view his death as going into the oblivion of non-existence.

And then there's Jesus, who uses Ex 3:6 to show that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living (in Sheol/Hades--Lk 16:22-23) and are not in the oblivion of non-existence.
God told Moses, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (present tense, not "I was," past tense). The patriarchs are still living because God is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive (Lk 20:36-38) in their spirits, and their living spirits will be reunited with their new bodies when they rise in the resurrection.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.

 

[eleos1954]

That is also the teaching of the Sadducees who denied immortality of the spirit.

However, the NT apostle who received his doctrine from heaven (2Co 12:1-10) disagrees with you and the Sadducees in 2Co 5:6-8 and Php 1:21-24, where he shows that our first death (physical) does not mean loss of being (death of our spirit).

Paul tells us that death is "to be absent from the body," not absent from existence;
and it "is to be at home with the Lord," not in oblivion.
He says he "prefers to be away from the body;" that "it is better by far to depart;" that "to die is gain."
The oblivion of non-existence is not "gain," or "better by far," or something "to be preferred."

He tells us death is better because he "will be with Christ," not in the oblivion of non-existence.
Why would he "desire to depart" rather than to continue living, especially when "to live is Christ,"
if departing meant only the oblivion of non-existence until the resurrection?
Clearly, Paul does not view his death as going into the oblivion of non-existence.

And then there's Jesus, who uses Ex 3:6 to show that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living (in Sheol/Hades--Lk 16:22-23) and are not in the oblivion of non-existence.
God told Moses, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (present tense, not "I was," past tense). The patriarchs are still living because God is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive (Lk 20:36-38) in their spirits, and their living spirits will be reunited with their new bodies when they rise in the resurrection.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.

He says he "prefers to be away from the body;" that "it is better by far to depart;" that "to die is gain."

Yes he does teach he PREFERS or would RATHER be away from the body .....
not that is what in fact happens when one dies earthly death.

I also would much RATHER or would PREFER
to be away from my body as well and with the Lord .... but it is also very clear that will NOT happen until He returns.

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Paul understood we all sleep in death ...

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

We indeed have eternal life in HIM .... and experience a spiritual relationship with Him now ... UNTIL He returns .... THEN we will fully experience the spiritual and physical.

The Lord terms death as sleep (a dormant state) ... all wait (in the grave) until He returns and the 1st resurrection happens .... later the 2nd resurrection happens.

This is how He is the God of the dead and the living ... not only is He the God of the saved .... but the God of the lost as well ..... He is God of all ... and will one day pass final judgement on all .... and that will take place before He returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

Matthew 10:28

Berean Study Bible
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is not over until He completes final judgement.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73 said: ↑
That is also the teaching of the Sadducees who denied immortality of the spirit.

However, the NT apostle who received his doctrine from heaven (2Co 12:1-10) disagrees with you and the Sadducees in 2Co 5:6-8 and Php 1:21-24, where he shows that our first death (physical) does not mean loss of being (death of our spirit).

Paul tells us that death is "to be absent from the body," not absent from existence;
and it "is to be at home with the Lord," not in oblivion.
He says he "prefers to be away from the body;" that "it is better by far to depart;" that "to die is gain."
The oblivion of non-existence is not "gain," or "better by far," or something "to be preferred."

He tells us death is better because he "will be with Christ," not in the oblivion of non-existence.
Why would he "desire to depart" rather than to continue living, especially when "to live is Christ,"
if departing meant only the oblivion of non-existence until the resurrection?
Clearly, Paul does not view his death as going into the oblivion of non-existence.

And then there's Jesus, who uses Ex 3:6 to show that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living (in Sheol/Hades--Lk 16:22-23) and are not in the oblivion of non-existence.
God told Moses, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (present tense, not "I was," past tense). The patriarchs are still living because God is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive (Lk 20:36-38) in their spirits, and their living spirits will be reunited with their new bodies when they rise in the resurrection.

The NT presents the human spirit as immortal.

Yes he does teach he PREFERS or would RATHER be away from the body .....
not that is what in fact happens when one dies earthly death.

But that is not in agreement with the context of 2Co 5:6-9, which presents one of only two conditions of existence for the sons of God, and where the saint is either in the one or the other.

Likewise, that the apostle Paul, who labored toward the goal of pleasing God (v.9) would prefer any existence not occurring in the will and way of God would be a contradiction of his goal.

I also would much RATHER or would PREFER
to be away from my body as well and with the Lord .... but it is also very clear that will NOT happen until He returns.

Paul understood we all sleep in death ...1 Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,
so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

In the NT, only the body sleeps in death, the spirit neither sleeps nor dies.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

We indeed have eternal life in HIM .... and experience a spiritual relationship with Him now ... UNTIL He returns .... THEN we will fully experience the spiritual and physical.

The Lord terms death as sleep (a dormant state)

The Lord uses the euphemism "sleep" for death of the body.
Sleep has been a euphemism for death of the body for millennia.
It also expresses the fact that the body will someday rise (as in waking up) and be alive again.

... all wait (in the grave) until He returns and the 1st resurrection happens .... later the 2nd resurrection happens.

This is how He is the God of the dead and the living ... not only is He the God of the saved .... but the God of the lost as well ..... He is God of all ... and will one day pass final judgement on all .... and that will take place before He returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

These are taken from prophecy, which is given in dark sayings (riddles--Nu 12:8) and is subject to interpretation, not all interpreting them in the same way.

 

[eleos1954]

But that is not in agreement with the context of 2Co 5:6-9, which presents one of only two conditions of existence for the sons of God, and where the saint is either in the one or the other.

Likewise, that the apostle Paul, who labored toward the goal of pleasing God (v.9) would prefer any existence not occurring in the will and way of God would be a contradiction of his goal.


In the NT, only the body sleeps in death, the spirit neither sleeps nor dies.


The Lord uses the euphemism "sleep" for death of the body.
Sleep has been a euphemism for death of the body for millennia.
It also expresses the fact that the body will someday rise (as in waking up) and be alive again.


These are taken from prophecy, which is given in dark sayings (riddles--Nu 12:8) and is subject to interpretation, not all interpreting them in the same way.

In the NT, only the body sleeps in death, the spirit neither sleeps nor dies.

Nothing about us is immortal .... we do not become immortal until He returns and makes us that way.

1 Timothy 6:16

King James Bible
Who (God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

2nd Corinthians 5

The context IS - our eternal dwelling .... and we don't receive our eternal dwelling until He returns.

Our Eternal Dwelling
(Romans 8:18-27)

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come. (1st resurrection)

6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, then, and would prefer (not that we are) to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. Then later
Greek philosophy (Socrates) ... and most prominently crept into the church during the rule of Constantine

Go do some research on it.

 

[Clare73]

Nothing about us is immortal .... we do not become immortal until He returns and makes us that way.

Yes, that is when our bodies are immortal.
But our spirits always were and are.
You have not addressed Paul's preference to be absent from the body when "to live is Christ."

You actually believe the contradiction that Paul preferred non-existence, when "to live is Christ,"
that he preferred no Christ in non-existence, when "to live is Christ"?

I do not think Paul believed the absurdity of preferring absence from the body when "to live is Christ". . .
"and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)
And when "to die is gain," I likewise do not think he believed the absurdity that there is gain in dying if it means non-existence.

God alone has immortality, in himself, just as God along has life, in himself; i.e., he received neither, for he is both.
We receive life from God, and all spirits receive immortality from God.

Immortality didn't "creep into the church." It's been there since the beginning, as is clearly seen in Paul's statements about his gain in dying.

 

[fishmansf]

Nobody is in heaven right now (a few exceptions, Moses, Enoch,Elijah) ... all wait (dormant sleep) in the grave until His return ... then He takes all to heaven for the 1,000 years.

1 Thessalonians 4 says nothing about being "gathered from heaven" ... it says those asleep ... (the dead in Christ rise first) .... they rise from the grave and are taken to heaven. Those alive (the saved) on earth at the time will be translated and taken to heaven at that time as well.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ (in the grave) will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (the saved raised from the grave) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we (all the saved) will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

All the saved go to heaven at the same time .... when He returns.

I would disagree while agreeing at the same time. Jesus said to the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in paradise” and Paul says, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Our physical bodies will still remain asleep but our souls will be in the presence of Christ. However it is not until the bodily resurrection that the sleepers will truly awake.

 

[eleos1954]

I would disagree while agreeing at the same time. Jesus said to the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in paradise” and Paul says, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Our physical bodies will still remain asleep but our souls will be in the presence of Christ. However it is not until the bodily resurrection that the sleepers will truly awake.

And according to the book of Acts we know Christ Himself did not ascend into heaven "that day".

and Paul says he would RATHER (or prefer) to be absent from the body .... not that at earthly death that is what happens .... I'd rather or prefer be absent from my body and at home with the Lord also .... but the whole of scripture teaches that immortality is given to us at the 1st resurrection (when Jesus returns) not before.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

We do not have a immortal soul .... nothing about us is immortal until Jesus returns.

1 Corinthians 15

52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

.

Hi eleos,

I think you overlooked that sentence.

Also - `You have come to Mount Zion ....to the General Assembly and church of the first-born...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

 

[eleos1954]

Hi eleos,

I think you overlooked that sentence.

Also - `You have come to Mount Zion ....to the General Assembly and church of the first-born...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

My previous post was in regard to this ....

fishmansf said: ↑
I would disagree while agreeing at the same time. Jesus said to the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in paradise” and Paul says, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Our physical bodies will still remain asleep but our souls will be in the presence of Christ. However it is not until the bodily resurrection that the sleepers will truly awake.

My point ... we don't have a "immortal soul" .... there is nothing immortal about us ... we do not receive immortality until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens .... THEN we are changed (receive immortality) and taken to heaven.

His Word is clear ...

1 Timothy 6

Fight the Good Fight

11But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession before many witnesses.

13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who made the good confession in His testimony before Pontius Pilate: 14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

When God created us He gave us the breath of life .... the ability to live .... when Adam & Eve sinned death entered the world (immortality was forfeited by Adam and Eve) when they sinned. Had they not sinned ... we (human race) would have remained immortal and wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Marilyn C]

My previous post was in regard to this ....



My point ... we don't have a "immortal soul" .... there is nothing immortal about us ... we do not receive immortality until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens .... THEN we are changed (receive immortality) and taken to heaven.

His Word is clear ...

1 Timothy 6

Fight the Good Fight

11But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession before many witnesses.

13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who made the good confession in His testimony before Pontius Pilate: 14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

When God created us He gave us the breath of life .... the ability to live .... when Adam & Eve sinned death entered the world (immortality was forfeited by Adam and Eve) when they sinned. Had they not sinned ... we (human race) would have remained immortal and wouldn't be in this mess.

Hi eleos,

However the spirits of those in the Body of Christ already in the General Assembly in glory, reveal to us that we have an immortal spirit.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRST-BORN who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

 

[eleos1954]

Hi eleos,

However the spirits of those in the Body of Christ already in the General Assembly in glory, reveal to us that we have an immortal spirit.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRST-BORN who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We rest in the grave until He returns and the 1st resurrection happens and THEN we become immortal .... NOT before.

1 Thessalonians 4 - it is CLEAR

The Return of the Lord

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We rest in the grave until He returns and the 1st resurrection happens and THEN we become immortal .... NOT before.

1 Thessalonians 4 - it is CLEAR

The Return of the Lord

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

`God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep...` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

They are NOT in the grave as scripture tells us they are in the General Assembly in the third heaven.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRST-BORN who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

 

[eleos1954]

`God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep...` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

They are NOT in the grave as scripture tells us they are in the General Assembly in the third heaven.

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRST-BORN who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

They are NOT in the grave as scripture tells us they are in the General Assembly in the third heaven.

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly. Remember in Genesis, when God created a heaven between the waters? That's the atmosphere. You’ll also remember that in 2 Peter, the apostle writes the “heavens shall dissolve”? It's talking about the first heaven, the atmosphere around the earth, and not where God dwells.

The second heaven, then, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. When Paul writes he was caught up to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2, he’s referring to paradise, the very dwelling place of God—such as when we pray, “Our Father who art in heaven.”

Everyone waits in the grave ... we are not immortal ...

1 Timothy 6:13-16

13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who made the good confession in His testimony before Pontius Pilate: 14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

How do you explain 1 Timothy 6:16?

 

[Marilyn C]

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly. Remember in Genesis, when God created a heaven between the waters? That's the atmosphere. You’ll also remember that in 2 Peter, the apostle writes the “heavens shall dissolve”? It's talking about the first heaven, the atmosphere around the earth, and not where God dwells.

The second heaven, then, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. When Paul writes he was caught up to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2, he’s referring to paradise, the very dwelling place of God—such as when we pray, “Our Father who art in heaven.”

Everyone waits in the grave ... we are not immortal ...

1 Timothy 6:13-16

13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who made the good confession in His testimony before Pontius Pilate: 14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One— the King of kings and Lord of lords— will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

How do you explain 1 Timothy 6:16?

I agree with your description of the 3 different realms in God`s great kingdom.

Now God the Father and His Son are beyond the created order - dwell in unapproachable light. Their `throne` authority is beyond the third heaven. However by His Spirit God is omnipresent, everywhere in His Great Kingdom, in every realm.

 

[usexpat97]

I will offer a couple things from my study of the Olivet discourse:

1). While Preterist USUALLY holds that all the prophetic events (save for Christ's return) completed by 70ad, I actually find very strong evidence that in fact they were still unfolding in 135ad. If it happened in 135ad, that is still preterism--just not the kind of preterism you usually hear about.

2). The Olivet discourse actually occurs in two halves, at two different times and two different places. Look at Matthew 24:3. Verses 1-2 are not at the same place. We tend to bundle all of the Olivet together as one thing--and organizationally speaking, it actually makes sense to--but we would be in error to think that verses 3- onward have to be part of the same thing. That was not what Jesus was saying. There was:. 1-2 Jesus saying the temple buildings would be thrown down, which He said unsolicited, and 3- Signs of the end of the age, which the disciples asked about. Which is NOT the same thing.