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Matthew's Olivet Discourse Extremely Troubling

Discussion in 'Bibliology & Hermeneutics' started by fishmansf, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. fishmansf

    fishmansf New Member

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    UPDATE: I believe that I saw something last night that has made a bit more sense of this passage. Matthew 24:12-14 seem to be separate from the “signs” of the rest of Matthew 24:4-14. Rather v. 12 speaks of the EFFECTS of the signs and because of that it beckons v. 14 to not be a sign as well rather as a result. It could be read like “and as a resulting the signs, lawlessness will increase and love will grow cold.” But really, the “woes” end at verse 11. Then right after, again, not as a sign but rather as a final effect, that the end will THEN come after all of those events have take place which that generation saw.

    so with that said, to me it seems like the “woes” end in verse 11. From verse 15-29 is the Lord ELABORATING on the “woes” and speaks of the coming tribulation which will not take place until verse 14 has been accomplished to which he then explains his coming in power after the tribulation AFTER the final conditional has taken place, that being, the preaching of gospels to all nations.
     
  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I can't assist you there. I guess you need to search the Scriptures for the answer. I wonder if there are any other references to "this generation" that might shed some light on what it actually means. I think that Jesus used the expression somewhere else, but I can't remember where.
     
  3. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You might want to consider what you've been taught, since that obviously is what has been confusing you. There aren't that many Churches today actually teaching Bible prophecy about the end, which means a healthy coverage in the OT prophets in correlation with endtime prophecy given in the NT. Most Churches are concentrated on preaching The Gospel and Church ministry. Few have Bible scholars teaching the whole Bible.

    Be assured, our Lord Jesus did NOT return for His 2nd coming in 70 A.D. That is a doctrine of Full Preterism, and is not Biblical. And Antiochus IV did the abomination thing in 165 B.C., about 200 years PRIOR to Jesus' quoting about the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel 11:31. And emperor Domitian, not Nero, was Roman emperor when Apostle John was captive on the Isle of Patmos and given Christ's Revelation.

    That is very easy to know, because there are specific events tied to the day of His 2nd coming, the END of this present world being one of them.

    What Christ's Olivet Discourse Is About:

    Per Acts 1, Jesus ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives. His Apostles who saw it were told He will return in like manner as He ascended. Zechariah 14 shows His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives at His 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". No one has ever... recorded that as having already happened in history.

    The 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans serves a blueprint for the destruction on the last day of this world when Jesus returns, just as Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) served as a blueprint type for the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel that will occur at the end.

    Remember, Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" idol event from Daniel about 200 years after... Antiochus IV has been dead. And the Roman army never got possession of the 2nd temple; it caught fire inside and burned down, so they definitely did not fulfill that "abomination of desolation", which is about the placing of an idol inside the temple in false worship.

    Christ disciples asked Him on the Mount of Olives when the end of this world age would be, and what would be the sign of His coming. Jesus then proceeded to give them (and us) 7 Signs of the end. Those 7 Signs directly parallel the Seals of Revelation 6. The last Sign He gave, for immediately after the tribulation, is that of His 2nd coming in the clouds and gathering of His Church.

    The Matthew 24:29-31 gathering example is about the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4 being gathered from Heaven (i.e., those Jesus brings with Him when He comes). And the Mark 13:24-27 version is about the gathering of the alive saints on earth per 1 Thess.4.

    Those Signs He gave is what the Church is supposed to be watching in these last days. They are the signs leading up to His 2nd coming, and are meant particularly for the generation that will 'see' His 2nd coming, which is still future to us.
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Nobody is in heaven right now (a few exceptions, Moses, Enoch,Elijah) ... all wait (dormant sleep) in the grave until His return ... then He takes all to heaven for the 1,000 years.

    1 Thessalonians 4 says nothing about being "gathered from heaven" ... it says those asleep ... (the dead in Christ rise first) .... they rise from the grave and are taken to heaven. Those alive (the saved) on earth at the time will be translated and taken to heaven at that time as well.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    The Return of the Lord

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ (in the grave) will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (the saved raised from the grave) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we (all the saved) will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    All the saved go to heaven at the same time .... when He returns.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Per Eccl.12:5-7 our spirit goes back to God at death of our flesh. It's our flesh bodies that are in the ground, not our spirit. This is why our Lord Jesus went to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison", which is not in the ground, but in the heavenly dimension. He fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 42:7. And He didn't preach to fallen angels nor demons either.

    1 Peter 4:5-6
    5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    KJV
     
  6. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    We are in no way immortal. We do not have a "immortal spirit" (that is pagan teaching - Greek philosophy) ... we receive immortality when Jesus returns ... His Word is very clear on that.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5

    5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten.

    Psalm 6:5
    For in death there is no remembrance of thee (God): in the grave who shall give thee (God) thanks?

    Yes ... judgement is coming for both the dead (in the graves) and the living. All the saved dead and the living at the time will THEN receive immortality.

    1st Timothy 6:16

    16He (God) alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen

    Peter is NOT saying that Christ, after he died went to hell and preached to them, but Christ preached to those who died many years before he was incarnate. Peter is continuing this thought about the flood and the gospel of the Arc and Christ's ancient preaching to those who long ago died.

    The gospel “was” preached to those who “are” dead. They are dead now, but the gospel “was” preached to them while they were yet living.

    If one believes anything about them survives after earthly death they are believing they are immortal.

    Acts 26:18 ( ie .... referenced from Isaiah 42:7)
    to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That our spirit goes back to God Who gave it doesn't mean we are immortal. Not yet. God is still able to destroy our spirit, which is the meaning of our soul and body being cast into the future lake of fire (Matthew 10:28). When Jesus comes, and the asleep saints are resurrected, and those us alive on earth that remain faithful are changed to the spiritual body, then what Paul said from Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up in victory will be said.

    The 'dead in the ground' idea comes from an old Jewish tradition of thinking that we get new flesh bodies at the resurrection. That idea is NOT written in God's Word. 1 Corinthians 15 is the last word on what TYPE of body the resurrection is. That also applies to what type of body those 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' will put on also. It is a "spiritual body" according to Apostle Paul there, the "image of the heavenly". This is why Jesus said those of the resurrection don't marry, nor take in marriage, but are the angels of God in heaven.

    Stop thinking with your flesh. Our loved ones in Christ that have died are with Him now like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5, not literally in the ground in a casket or tomb.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's obvious what Peter meant in the 1 Peter 3:18-20 verses. It's about Christ sometime during His resurrection going to the "spirits in prison", the pit of hell prison, and preaching The Gospel to those who had died. That is what the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy was about. He led the prisoners (that believed) out of the prison house. That was not... about some prison on earth that He went to and preached. Peter is emphatic that Jesus was 'quickened' by The Spirit to go preach to those "spirits in prison". That is definitely not speaking of people in the flesh, no matter how much you want to try and twist it.

    Even more so with the 1 Peter 4:5-6 verses, are about that very "spirits in prison" subject.

    If one believes anything like you do with thinking the resurrection is about a new flesh body raised from the ground, then they are being deceived by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
     
  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    I didn't say we would have "fleshly" bodies ... the bible says we will have "new" bodies ... we will be like Christ.

    God will give us new bodies in heaven -- bodies that will be similar to Christ's body after His resurrection. The Bible says that Christ, "by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21).

    You can see in Isaiah 61, part of the ministry of Christ, it says: He came to set the captives free and opening the prison to them that are bound. Isaiah 61:1. So it’s simply saying that part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit (Holy Spirit) He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned by the devil. He’s not talking about how their "ghosts" were in hell, chained up, or anything.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I have pointed to before, per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, the TYPE of body we ALL will have after the "last trump" will be a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" Paul called it. Paul also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. That means a body not of flesh. Either one believes what Paul said, or they don't. And I don't have time to argue with folks that would rather heed some doctrine of man instead of reading the clearly written Scripture and believing it.
     
  11. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    I never said we received a body of flesh ... that was an assumption by yourself.
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yet you have not admitted that we receive a "spiritual body", as written per 1 Cor.15. I pointed you to that chapter, but you instead chose to point only to Christ's transfigured flesh body. His flesh body was transfigured and kept the marks of His crucifixion. OUR flesh body will NOT be transfigured, but will go back to the earthly material elements where it came from. You obviously do not understand the difference between flesh and spirit. They are two separate dimensions.

    In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed that, at present, we have another house not made with hands, one eternal in the heavens. He showed the same thing in 1 Cor.15 when he said there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. He said if our tabernacle of this world were dissolved, we still have that body that is eternal in the heavens.

    What kind of body do you think Paul was talking about with the one caught up to Paradise in 2 Cor.12? Clearly that one (probably Paul) was not in Paradise with his flesh body.

    What you're not understanding is our makeup God made us with for this present world. We have a spiritual body that dwells inside our flesh body and is connected by a "silver cord". That simply was shown in the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture. And in Matthew 10:28 our Lord Jesus showed to not fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul. That means our soul continues to have existence after flesh death. Well what image does the soul have in that state without flesh? Even our Lord Jesus simply showed this difference in John 3 when He said that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is why Apostle Paul would say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Does this mean we are immortal? No, that's a doctrine of man twist to prevent one from understanding this matter. Our soul with spirit cannot be separated, but both of those together can... be separated from our flesh. This is what the New Testament shows, like Matthew 10:28; Luke 16; 1 Peter 4. Our soul with spirit can still be in a liable to die condition for rejecting Christ at His coming. Paul showed this in 1 Cor.15 using four different Greek words for the 2 changes required to have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

    This is why Jesus per John 5:28-29 showed at His coming there will be two different resurrection conditions for the raised dead. One group will be the "resurrection of life" (unto Christ), and the other will be the "resurrection of damnation" (the unsaved). Both will be given resurrection bodies (the spiritual body). But only the "resurrection of damnation" will be subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" after Christ's future thousand years reign. That has nothing to do with a flesh body. It is about the soul with spirit, which the spirit part is what has the "image of the heavenly", and outward image likeness like the angels, which God's Word reveals always had the image of man.
     
  13. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
    “The spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3 KJV).

    The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

    “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

    A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we ARE souls—NOT that we have souls.

    Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
    Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
    Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
    A living person (a soul).

    Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul (a living person), and spirit (breath of life) in one indivisible whole.

    Do souls die?

    “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV).
    “Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3 KJV).

    According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17).
    Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

    Where do people go when they die? Heaven? Hell?

    “All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).
    “David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
    “If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

    People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection and the 1st resurrection (of the saved) happens when Jesus returns.

    God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

    “The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
    “The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

    The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4 KJV).

    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. … His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job 14:12, 21).
    “Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

    “Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12).
    “The day of the Lord will come … in which the heavens will pass away” (2 Peter 3:10).

    The dead will sleep (dormant in the grave) until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.


    What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?

    “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
    “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. … And the dead in Christ will rise. … And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
    “We shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye … and the dead will be raised incorruptible. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53).

    They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

    Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 12 that he is not sure whether during his supernatural experience he was physically taken to heaven or whether he had a spiritual experience, a vision, during which the body was not as involved as it would have been had he actually been taken to Paradise.
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's a Jewish tradition based only on info from the Old Testament. Apostle Peter showed Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 42:7 with going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3 & 4). Those were not demons. They were flesh people that died prior to Christ's death and resurrection. This earthly dimension is the not only dimension of existence. The 'breath of life' is about God placing our soul with spirit in a flesh body. It is not simply about oxygen that we breath.

    That's an old Jewish tradition based on a limited reading of the Old Testament, and that limited reading doesn't really follow what Solomon showed in Eccl.12:5-7. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our 'soul' continues its existence AFTER our flesh dies. So your misunderstanding is from Jewish traditions and not based on what Jesus taught.

    You forgot Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 where Solomon showed that at flesh death our "silver cord" is severed, and our flesh goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That "spirit" part includes our 'soul', because Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28 that only God can kill our 'soul'.

    You should try reading what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 about the continued existence of the soul after flesh death, showing that the 'soul' is NOT just a product of flesh breathing oxygen.
     
  15. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    a soul is what you are (a living being) as long as you have the breath of life from God you are a living "soul" .... without it you are a dead "soul" ...

    Genesis 2:7
    Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
    Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
    Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
    A living person (a soul).

    Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul, and spirit in one indivisible whole.

    "souls" DO die ... they don't live on

    Ezekiel 18:4
    Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

    SPIRIT (Judg. 15:19; Eccles. 12:7; Luke 10:21).
    In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word ruach occurs 377 times and is translated "wind ... .. breath," or "spirit" (Gen. 8: 1), "life principle" (Gen. 6:17; 7:22), "courage" (Josh. 2:11), "vitality" or "strength" (Judg. 15:19), "disposition" (Isa. 54:6), and "moral character" (Ezek. 11:19).

    The "spirit" or "breath" of a person is identical with the "spirit" or "breath" of animals (Eccles. 3:19). This "spirit" or "breath" of a person returns to God at the time of death, and the body returns to the dust where it came from (Job 34:14; Eccles. 12:7). It is also translated "Spirit of God" (Isa. 63:10). In the New Testament the Greek word pneuma is similarly translated as "spirit" or "to breathe." It is also translated as ,"mood," "attitude," or "state of feeling" (Rom. 8:15; 1 Cor. 4:21; 2 Tim. 1:7; 1 John 4:6). Like ruach, it is sometimes translated "Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:11, 14; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 2:4; 1 Pet. 1:12; 2 Pet. 1:21).

    Neither in the Old Testament nor the New Testament does ruach or pneuma refer to an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from the body

    Death is the reversal of the creation act: the dust returns to the earth where it came from, and the breath of life returns to God who gave it.

    All wait in the grave to be resurrected.

    Nothing about us is immortal ... NOTHING ... we receive immortality when Jesus returns.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    The Return of the Lord

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
  16. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Active Member

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    I just believe that some of what Jesus was talking about did happen and some is yet to come.
    Yes, the temple was destroyed, as Jesus prophesied. At that time the disciples, upon hearing that prophecy, made the jump in their own minds that this means the end. But after the three part question of verse 3, Jesus says:
    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Verse 4.
    The next 10 verses Jesus is warning about deceptions related to the subject
    of the end, not prophesying about the end.
    But I believe that the age will end not the world as the King James is the only Bible that uses the word world.
    Yes, both are correct. Jesus returning is at the end of the world, to bring in a new heaven and a new earth.
    However, there is an end of the age that there are reasons to believe is soon.
    There are two verses I will now post for consideration on this topic.
    Luke 21:24. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled.
    Notice that this is an "end of the age" for the Gentiles, and the sovereignty of Jerusalem is a legitimate point of inquiry.
    Romans 11:25. For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. .
    In our generation there has been a significant movement of Jews who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah.
    Again, not prophesying the end of the world, but the end of an age.
    Matthew 24:12. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
    2 Thes. 2:1-3. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
    So, let me correlate, "the love of many will grow cold", and "the falling away comes first".
    Let's just say hypothetically, that millions of present day Christians, evangelicals in particular, believe in the rapture. Let's say that we reach the end of the age of the Gentiles, but this does not correspond to the return of Jesus Christ, because it is not the end of all things, the last day. It is simply the
    end of an Age, as you point out. There is war in Israel, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey. False teachers are saying that this is the end. Then guess what? There is war, famine, disease, etc...all the things that Jesus says is not signs of the end of the age, but things that will be used to deceive "even the very elect".
    There will be a massive falling away of believers, who were deceived into believing that Jesus is returning, and it is that end of the world.
    The love of "most", this means the overwhelming majority, leaving only a remnant of true believers.
    This is the end for 'the time of the Gentiles" that Jesus spoke of, and we
    will see a Millennial Age, the seventh day(1000 years). This is spoken of in Revelation 20,
    but an large number of believers do not believe it is literal, nor do they understand that the 1000 year reign is not Jesus Himself.
    The Prophets say that it is a reign of "the throne of David", a final reign of man.
    The other question, "of your coming" is not answered until the last day, of which no one knows the day or the hour.

    So the sum is this, the world is about to go through major changes, life is going to be very different. Many believers will not be able to deal with these changes,
    because they have been taught that they will be raptured away before there is any type of global tribulation.
    This is the falling away. I reject the rapture doctrines precisely because of this, it is the instrument of the falling away.
    Jesus reigns from heaven until all his enemies are under his feet.
    1 Co 15:25. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
    When does death cease? At the end of the Millennial Age. Revelation 20.
    St Peter preached in Acts 3:
    Acts 3:21. Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive(He will remain in heaven) until the times of restoration of all things,
    which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
    Finally, consider what is happening right now, there is a global pandemic, and the Christian Forum that I post my essays on is lite up with,"is the virus a part of God's judgment? does this signal the end of the Age? Exactly what Jesus was warning about in Matthew 24.

    Isaiah 66:4. So will I choose their delusions,
    And bring their fears on them;
    Because, when I called, no one answered,
    When I spoke they did not hear.
    But they did evil before My eyes,
    And chose that in which I do not delight.

    John 6:39, 40. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 6:44. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    I certainly believe in the gathering of the saints, but attempts to predict when this happens are conflicting, and in many ways harmful.
    These scriptures sound as if He only speaks of the resurrection, I know, but here is what Paul says, and his teachings are used to support some of the ideas of "the rapture", (not a Biblical word).
    1 Thes 4:13-18. The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
    But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
    even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
    For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    This word caught up, or snatched away, used by Paul, is the basis for the word Rapture.
    Paul says it happens after the resurrection, not before, much less
    all this convoluted, pre-trib, post-trib, pre-millennial, post-millennial arguments.

    You can read Rev. 20 yourself, and pay particular attention to first resurrection and second resurrection and who is blessed. Then there is the matter of defining the term 'second death' used in this chapter.

    And so, here is my safe distance, avoid all the arguments and divisions position.
    Jesus said he would set everything in order "on the last day", so I am planning to just wait on Him,
    and endure to the end.
    Matthew 24:13. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
    Against Deceptions
    People often speak of "war and rumors of war", as well as global disasters and pandemics as being signs of the end time. I would ask you today to look with fresh eyes and consider the Lord's heart in this regard.
    Matthew 24:1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to Him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    At the end of a busy day, Jesus and his disciples find a quiet place, and they simply comment on the view of the temple mount. The Lord surprises them with a very precise and shocking prophecy.
    Verse 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Jesus has mentioned a few times that He would face rejection and death in Jerusalem, but now He speaks of God's soon judgment on the city and they immediately make a jump in their own minds that this pertains to the end of the age.
    Verse 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Of course we know that most of the Lord's followers would have lived to see the destruction of the temple, this event was not a herald of the end times. While the questions reveal what was on their hearts, only the Lord's answers can show us His priorities.
    Verse 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Now if we pause here in the discourse and ask the question, "what do you think was the Lord's primary concern regarding the subject of signs and the end of the world? Your answer should be that He was concerned with deceptive teachings that would come forth in this regard.
    Did He not once say this concerning signs:
    Matthew 16:4. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign.
    He continues the discourse by elaborating on the subject of deceptions, not signs.
    Verse 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    To be clear here, the Lord is not talking about anyone claiming to be the Messiah. Anyone who comes "in His name", are claiming to be legitimate ambassadors speaking on His behalf. The claim "I am Christ", should be translated: "I am anointed", because christos means anointed, and this is a claim that every false teacher, preacher and prophet is making these days. This is not a sign of the end times, this is a caution for the wise follower to avoid being deceived.
    Verse 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    These words "the end is not yet" should be enough to convince you that quoting "wars and rumors of wars" as if to imply that the end of the age is upon us is to greatly discredit your understanding.

    Verse 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Verse 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    Now this is something to consider. This expression of early birth pangs says a lot about being misinformed. Most people know that you don't rush to the hospital with the first contractions of birth. Couples are coached to time contractions to be sure that labor has begun. However, there is still occasions were an expectant mother is rushed to a hospital, only to return later that evening saying; "false alarm". A good possibility is that greater awareness avoids reacting inappropriately to the beginning of sorrows.

    Verse 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    Again with the warnings and concerns over being deceived.
    Verse 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    This verse uses the word agape for love and therefore cannot be interpreted as a state of the world we live. Only believers can know the agape love of God, and only believers can lose their "first love" and fall away due to lawlessness(iniquity) within the church.
    This is why Jesus now says:
    Verse 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    There are two verses I will now post for consideration on this topic.
    Luke 21:24. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until "the times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled. Notice that this is the "the end of the age" for the Gentiles, and the sovereignty of Jerusalem is a legitimate point of inquiry.
    Romans 11:25. For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    Again with the Gentiles in the age we now occupy. With a growing number of Jews in Israel who see the historical Jesus (Yeshua) as the Son of God and Messiah, we draw closer to a true remnant in the promised land. Another reality worthy of attention.
    Matthew 24:24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
     
  17. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Active Member

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    Peter informs us:

    Acts 3:21. heaven has received Him until the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets since the world began.

    The restoration of all things refers to the throne of David in Israel. This process will not be complete until the end of the final day (1000 years).

    Ezekiel 34:23-31. And I will set up one shepherd over them and he shall feed them, my servant David, he shall feed them and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord shall be their God and David a prince among them. I the Lord have spoken it and I will make with them a covenant of peace.

    Ezekiel 37:24-28. And David my servant shall be king over them and they shall all have one shepherd over them...and they shall dwell in the land I have given to Jacob my servant... and David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant...and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

    The covenant of peace (berit shalom, also translated covenant of friendship), was originally bestowed on the house of Phineas, the son of Eleazar, in Numbers 25:10-13; and will be granted to all Israel, in Israel, at the end of the age.

    Now consider the most referenced Old Testament passage in the New Testament to bring all this to a fine point. In the gospels Jesus proposes this question concerning the Christ: Whose son is he? The teachers responded that he is the son of David. Jesus then silences them with this statement.

    Matthew 22:41-46. How is it that David in spirit calls him Lord saying The Lord said unto my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool (Psalm 110), if David calls him Lord, how is he his son?

    This Psalm is also referenced by Peter in Acts 2:33-35. In the letter to the Hebrews we find another reference:

    Hebrews 10:12-14. But this man after he had offered one sacrifice for sin forever sat down at the right hand of God, from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    Most importantly, follow Paul’s explanation of the final restitution of all things:

    1 Corinthians 15:24-28. Then comes the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are under him it is clear that the exception is He that put all things under him. And when all things are subdued under him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put everything under him, that God may be all, in all. Note that the Son is subject to God the Father. The perceived equality between the Son and Father is based on the equality of granted authority. This is foreshadowed in Genesis 41 pertaining to the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh.

    Genesis 41:40-44. You shall be over my house and according unto your word shall all my people be ruled, only in the throne will I be greater than you.

    To serve Joseph was to serve Pharaoh, to dishonor Joseph was to dishonor Pharaoh. Compare this to the self-testimony of Jesus in John 5.

    John 5:22&23. For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son; that all should honor the Son as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son honors not the Father who sent him. (Doctrine of Christ).

    This is the final restitution of all things spoken of by the prophets by the Spirit of Christ that was in them. The time of the gentiles will soon be fulfilled as the fullness of the gentiles is a finite point in time. The end of the age and the new heaven and new earth and the everlasting righteousness of the kingdom of God and Christ comes after all his enemies come under his feet; and the final enemy is death.

    In the millennial kingdom of the house of David, people live long prosperous lives, but not eternal lives.

    Isaiah 65:20. One who dies at 100 will be as if a child, but a sinner of 100 years will know they are cursed.

    During the 1000 year reign the law of God will be enforced from Jerusalem and the word of God will come forth from mount Zion. (Isaiah 2.)

    And after these 1000 years there will be one final rebellion. Sin will continue during the millennium and will be dealt with by the law. Satan will be bound and man will know that there is a sin nature in him that cannot be blamed on “the devil made me do it”. Sinners will chafe under the law of God for 1000 years. This is foreshadowed in the Old Testament, for after the glorious 40 year reign of Solomon, a kingdom like no other on earth, the people rebelled, complaining of the severity of his reign.

    Isaiah 33:14. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”
     
  18. Chris35

    Chris35 New Member

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    34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    From my understanding, the word generation, can also have the meaning of age or era, which makes alot more sense in this context..

    Eg. The age where sin rules the world, the start of the age being the fall of adam, and the end being the return of Christ, the end of sin.

    Eg. On a larger picture, the generation ruled by sin. The generation of corruption ect ect.
     
  19. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Active Member

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    generation=genea, used 13 times in Matthew beginning with the geneology.
    Matthew 1:17. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
    Jesus speaks to this generation, that heard Him directly, who saw the works that His Father gave the authority to perform as a testimony against them.
    Matthew 23: 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (i.e. The people that He is addressing) And then He continues:
    Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    This generation suffered the destruction of the Temple, in a time of desolation, and tribulation.
    Matthew 24:34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    The preparation of the Gospel of Peace that Gentiles are to preach to Jerusalem
    was prepared and laid out in the prophet Isaiah:
    Isaiah 40:1“Comfort, yes, comfort My people!”
    Says your God.
    2“Speak comfort to Jerusalem, and cry out to her,
    That her warfare is ended,
    That her iniquity is pardoned;
    For she has received from the Lord’s hand
    Double for all her sins.

    Two temples, two judgments, two destructions during a time of desolation and tribulation.
    Would you expect the Jerusalem of our generation to endure a time of tribulation that Yeshua clearly ordained for THAT generation? Prophecy Fulfilled.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    As a futurist, but not necessarily a dispy, the Discourse is pretty clear. The events Jesus prophesied are described in greater detail in the Revelation. In those visions, He said the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, so the destruction of J & the temple was NOT it.

    Jesus also said, "WHEN YOU SEE the AOD, look out !" So, the acts of Antiochus Epiphanes were NOT it.

    The Jews have plans to build a new temple in Jerusalem, & have gathered the materials to do it. And they're now breeding the animals to be used in temple rites.(Remember, most Jews believe the Old Covenant & Mosaic law are still in force.) That temple will be where the antichrist will commit the AOD by setting up his statue in it, which his sidekick the false prophet will supernaturally make speak, as his boss declares himself to be God.

    I believe the rapture will occur around the time of that event, so there won't be any opposition to instituting the "mark of the beast". Shortly after that, the great trib will occur.

    I believe the approach of another planet will seemingly be the agent that triggers its plagues, so men won't believe God is orchestrating it.

    Remember, in Luke 21, men will faint for the things they see coming upon the earth. I mean, what could men do about another planet heading for a collision with the earth ? ?

    But the great trib will be cut short lest all life perish, but all who have taken the mark of the beast will curse God for the plagues.( Perhaps the 2 planets' magnetic fields will repel each other.) And then, Jesus will return, seen by all. The antichrist will send his army to attack Him, but He will destroy it by His spoken word, & the beast & false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire without passing "GO!" & collecting $200!
     
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