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Featured Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As already stated, the criteria is people who claim Mt.7:13-14 as a "proof text". Therefore no other passages are pertinent to the point. Except parallel passages, if any, & the like.

    Nobody can stop others from posting anything in this thread.
    People, yourself included, are continuing to do so even after reading my requests.

    As i've said already i have no intentions of answering off topic posts.
     
  2. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    "No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein" This is a redflag statement for those of you wanting to know how to identify those who spread false doctrine. You should always be on guard when someone asks you not to seek out other passages of scripture to place context on a particular passage. Universalism is FALSE DOCTRINE, a product of Satan himself to mislead people into believing God's laws are no longer important and no consequences exist for those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and the need to repent of our sins. When someone uses 2 or 3 verses of scripture then backfills with text from other documents, man made ideologies, and various modern translations they are using a tactic as old as Satan himself.
     
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  3. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    OP,
    My following questions have everything to do with Matthew 7:13-14

    1. Are you an ancient Greek scholar? Do you have the skills to translate the original manuscripts into modern English? Or even do anything remotely close?

    I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know that just because a word is in present tense that doesn't necessarily mean that it constricts the application to a soon-ending time period.

    Matthew 7:21-23 (Analytical Literal Translation, 3rd edition...inspired by YLT):
    "Not every one saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father, the [One] in [the] heavens. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord' we prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and did many miraculous works in Your name, did we not?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; be departing from Me, the ones practicing lawlessness!'

    He's talking about a FUTURE date and yet uses PRESENT tense verbs!
    So we see that just because He does that it does not mean that He's only talking about the generation He is physically speaking to.
    So that point you made is moot.

    So going back to Matthew 7:13-14, it should be understood as regarding the final judgment. The context supports that view (see also vs. 19).

    ________

    It's very dangerous to use lexicons as proof-texts as well. Committees of professionals in ancient Hebrew/Greek translate the Bible for a reason...because it's a weighty task--a layman with a lexicon isn't going to cut it.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You missed the point. Please read the thread. For example the OP says:

    This thread is only for discussing Mt.7:13-14 as an alleged "proof text" refuting universalism. No other Scripture passages or arguments allegedly opposing universalism will be considered relevant to this topic or answered herein. Not by me, anyway. Please stay on topic or refrain from posting. Thank you.

    And from post 26:

    The topic is in the title of this thread.

    Why not start your own topic if you want to talk about something else? I'm quite sure i'll be able to refute any objection you have to universalism.

    Do you believe Mt.7:13-14 refutes universalism. Try to stay on the topic.

    Doing otherwise is poor etiquette & wastes people's time who are interested in the topic of the thread, not your off topic comments.

    I see people posting off topic comments often in threads here.

    Probably almost every possible objection to universalism has been addressed before by myself or others on this forum. Why not do a search if you're interested in a specific topic, or read some of the free-for-all universalism threads.

    And post 20:

    If i had wanted another thread where everyone was posting anything for or against UR, i'd have titled this thread something like "Is Universalism True?"

    If you think "reprobate" disproves universalism on its own as a "proof text", why don't you start your own thread titled "universalism proven wrong: reprobate" & find out how wrong you are. Consider that a friendly challenge.


    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
  5. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good/safe plan, I mean lets not get into anything else that might refute it.

    I think I get it now, even though the point is the scripture you post does not refute eventual salvation, anything else that does is a completely moot point and you don't want to hear it. I got a not exactly underlying feeling you were trying to basically say you stand by "Salvation for all".

    You must understand yours is a very unusual action, refusing to talk about your beliefs/other aspects of such, but in a way it makes perfect sense you would not.

    Seems to me if you had any faith at at all, or reasonable backing for what you propose as the truth, you would boldly discuss any aspect of it, yet...

    As far as others not posting here, your comment "maybe this thread isn't for you", and then the "butt out" by another poster, certainly gave that impression, but good to know that's not a problem and that you will just not be talking to anyone about other refutes.
     
  6. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because you are spreading what you are spreading here, and not on another thread...that's why.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My point is not "moot". You haven't demonstrated from Mt.7:13-14 any reference to a "final judgement" of that generation let alone all mankind. Or even that such a judgement precludes corrective punishment thereafter till all are saved. Or that Mt.7 references separate destinies in the millennial age kingdom of Christ.

    Jesus speaks of "few" finding it. At that time. He does not state how many or few would be finding it in the following 2000 years after that, up to our present time. Or the millennium also, etc. Paul says "many" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19). Why would Paul say that? Do you think he was not aware of what Jesus said re "few"?

    Jesus does not say that the "destruction" in view is endless, or final destiny, or non corrective, so why should i accept that this passage necessarily proves universalism false?

    If the Lord had wanted to speak of "endless destruction" He had perfectly suitable Greek words to express such an idea, e.g. "no end" (Lk.1:33), "endless" (1 Tim.1:4), "eternal" (Rom.1:20). The fact Scripture - never - uses such expressions re the future destiny of those who die in their sins is evidence against endless annihilation or torments.

    Committees of pro HellFire Club folks clone pro endless hell versions after their own preconceived dogma of endless punishment. They distort the truth & decieve the masses. They sell a lot of books. OTOH early church father universalists who were native Greek speakers & Greek scholars knew better.


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is an understood principle of hermenutics that a passage of
    Scripture needs to be viewed in the context in which it was written. Matthew 7:21-23 is in the middle of a set of related instructions that Jesus gave. Therefore, it needs to be viewed alongside the related instructions before and after those verses.

    Also, we need to see who Matthew was writing to. He was writing to unconverted Jews and not to Christian believers. We do not find any similar instructions in Paul's letters, which were written to gentile converts, and as far as I can see, none of the other Gospel writers reported it. Luke wrote to a gentile official, John wrote to converted believers struggling with the Gnostic Heresy. and Mark wrote to a gentile audience explaining Jewish traditions.

    It is well known that there were Jewish prophets and exorcists who believed that they were serving God and Jesus was showing them that these works would not justify them before God.

    So let's look at the whole passage in context:

    The Narrow and Wide Gates
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    So here, Jesus is saying that there is a narrow gate that leads to life and not everyone will find it. He is warning the Jews that they should not be complacent about their eternal future and the popular path may not be the right one to lead them to eternal life. Notice that He does not specify exactly what that narrow gate is. But John reports that Jesus does specify the narrow gate to Nicodemus when the latter came to Him by night to ask some serious questions. Jesus saw him as a sincere seeker, so He felt to be more specific to him.

    True and False Prophets
    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    Here, Jesus is saying that not every person who calls himself a prophet is a true prophet from God. He is talking about Jewish prophets not NT ones. He similarly does not describe exactly the attributes of a true or false prophet. He assumes that his hearers know their Scriptures which clearly outlines the difference between the two.

    True and False Disciples
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Here is the verse in question. He is talking to Jewish people in the present who are purporting to have God as their Lord. Anyone can give lip service to God, but Jesus says it is the one who does the will of His Father who will [in the future] enter the kingdom of heaven. And what is the will of the Father? To believe on Him whom He has sent (Jesus Christ). Notice that those who are seeking to enter the kingdom of heaven are trying to justify themselves on the deeds they have done for the Lord, but Jesus will recognise only those who are believing on Him whom the Father has sent. Building up the person and the greatness of his deeds is New Age thinking. It is all me, me, me. Jesus will recognise the one who says, "I believe that You died for me on the cross of Calvary:.

    The Wise and Foolish Builders
    24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

    Building the house that will stand consists on going through the narrow way, believing on Christ whom the Father has sent, and living as a new creation in Christ. But my view is one looking back from this side of the cross and resurrection. Matthew knew that as well, but he deliberately does not editorialise on the basis of his post crucifixion resurrection knowledge. He faithfully reports what Jesus actually said in the Jewish context to make his Jewish audience understand the gospel of Christ from the Jewish perspective and how Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Once the Jews who read his book accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, then Matthew can lead them to a true conversion to Christ as Saviour.

    So, to summarise:

    1. There is a broad way and a narrow way. Many will take the broad way to destruction and some will take the narrow way to eternal life in Christ.

    2. There are true prophets of God and false ones. We will recognise them by the fruit they produce. The good fruit will be those who are pointed to a great faith and trust in Christ, and the bad fruit will be those who are made complacent in their sinfulness and rejection of Christ.

    3. Not everyone who gives lip service to God or Christ will be recognised by Christ. He will recognise those who do the Father's will, and that is to believe on Christ whom the Father has sent. For the Jews it is a recognition that Jewish is their God-sent Messiah and Saviour.

    4. Jesus summarises that those who build their spiritual houses on the rock which is Christ will stand the storms of life and death and move intact into an eternity in the presence of God. Those who build their spiritual houses on the sand of popular belief, confidence in their own efforts and achievements, prophecies that cause them to relax in their sinful ways, will disintegrate in the transition to eternity and end up in total destruction.

    It is quite clear from the context that there are two types of people as described by Jesus. Those who believe on Him and those who don't. Salvation will come to those who believe on Him and destruction will come to those who reject Him. Therefore, it is clear to me that the three passages show clearly that Jesus is not teaching universal salvation.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually Universalists have answered every alleged Scriptural objection in other threads.

    There are hundreds of such threads on this forum. All open to post any verses one wants. Several active on the first page.

    This is the only one - ever - AFAIK where a request was made to focus on one topic, namely is Mt.7:13-14 (in and of itself) a "proof text" against universalism. Therefore generally all other Scripture texts are irrelevant to the topic.

    As for other arguments to universalism, i've more than adequately addressed them all. Feel free to post to me in the other threads [see below] & time permitting (God willing) i'll address any reasonable post.

    my threads:

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Is there salvation after death?

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

    Early church opposition to endless hell
     
  10. Billy Sizemore

    Billy Sizemore New Member

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    You should add a hyperlink "If Oprah says it, it must be true" It would be as doctrinally sound as the rest of your arguments.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see any reference in Mt.7:13-14 to an "eternal future".

    Jesus speaks of "few" finding it. At that time. He does not state how many or few would be finding it in the following 2000 years after that, up to our present time. Or the millennium also, etc. Paul says "many" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19). Why would Paul say that? Do you think he was not aware of what Jesus said re "few"?

    Jesus does not say that the "destruction" in view is endless, or final destiny, or non corrective, so why should i accept that this passage necessarily proves universalism false?

    If the Lord had wanted to speak of "endless destruction" He had perfectly suitable Greek words to express such an idea, e.g. "no end" (Lk.1:33), "endless" (1 Tim.1:4), "eternal" (Rom.1:20). The fact Scripture - never - uses such expressions re the future destiny of those who die in their sins is evidence against endless annihilation or torments.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    I've answered you re Mt.7:21-23 here:

    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
     
  12. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One thread at a time.
     
  13. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Facts for me are.. I get no say in this. Your my personally feelings about all some few what ever effects nothing. For God so loved the world. For He came not to judge the world through Him might be saved. And who so ever calls on the name of the lord. The thief .. remember me. That was it. You really think one must be at deaths door for that to work? We only look at a moment in this life not all of it as He sees.

    He is not like us. He crys so hard for not one knows how much He loves them. What we can know is .. He will do EVERYTHING it takes to save all. Yet nothing has changed. The fields are still white.. and the laborers are few. We pass people every day every where. If we really thought they were going to be lost..if we thought that was our kid about baby our wife... what would we do? We SAY JESUS IS REAL..we SAY WE BELIEVE...hmm
     
  14. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    ClementofA, is this off topic:

    1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

    I don't guess you understand that all things which happened in relation to that Ancient Israel were a figure of what would happen world-wide. It does take most some time to understand that.

    All you need do is to follow that Greek "polus" on through the NT to see that you are grasping at a wrong impression of that word. Try it and see if what you find supports your theory. Similarly the Greek, "pas." Do the same thing with that word, "all."

    The words, "many" and "all", are relative in meaning. They are easy to get a wrong impression of and easy to give a wrong impression of. So it pays not to get too excited before investigating how those words are used in the broader context of the entire NT.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi Buzz,

    Thanks for raising the subject of 1 Pet.4:18.

    I have addressed that to you in a post here:

    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    God bless.
     
  16. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I give little to no credence to any ideas used once.
    My stand is that universal salvation would have been
    easy to include in any or all the following verses.

    Combined, these verses describe a dark but fiery furnace where
    all who do not trust God remain for eternity.
    But I concede that the second death seems to end even hell.

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  17. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Most agree that is rare.
     
  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I was taught that as well. I'm just putting the narrow gate passage back into it's correct context. The narrow gate is the golden rule.

    The narrow gate is the royal law.
    Matthew 7 Parallel Chapters
    Click to expand...

    Even Jesus speaking does not claim that He is the narrow door or gate:

    22Then Jesus traveled throughout the towns and villages, teaching as He made His way toward Jerusalem. 23“Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?”

    Jesus answered, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. 25After the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’

    But he will reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

    26Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

    27And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’

    28There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.”

    Luke 13 BSB
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  19. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    Self explanatory really:
    So there is a wide gate and a broad way that leads to destruction. Destruction is destruction. How can a thing be saved once it has been destroyed? The salvation of anything must occur prior to destruction.
    But (in contrast to the former part of the statement) there is a small gate and narrow way that leads to life, and only a few find it (as opposed to the many that do not find it and who prefer to take the broad way to destruction).
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The two verses the OP isolated say nothing of the Golden Rule.

    We have to keep on topic.
     
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