Matthew 24, the divide

[Timtofly]

It is quite strange that some of us are willing to re-interpret the whole New Testament to fit their interpretation of Revelation chapter 20, and then accuse others of changing God's Word.

They have one finger pointing at others, and three fingers pointing back in their direction.

They ignore, or re-interpret Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 9:14, and Revelation 11:18, to fit the figurative language of Revelation chapter 20.

Then they claim the book of Revelation is in chronological order, when Revelation 16:15-16 proves it is not.

State how those verses are ignored. All bodies on earth are dead and destroyed by fire at the end of Armageddon. No humans are hiding out anywhere. No saints are on the earth. All Adam's descendants are dead and there are no identifiable bodies. CHECK.

Is there a Resurrection? CHECK.

Are some damned and some given eternal life? CHECK.

Is Satan bound? CHECK.

Is Satan and Death defeated? CHECKMATE.

What do you want to add?

 

[keras]

State how those verses are ignored. All bodies on earth are dead and destroyed by fire at the end of Armageddon. No humans are hiding out anywhere. No saints are on the earth. All Adam's descendants are dead and there are no identifiable bodies. CHECK.

This is your error.
Many people will be alive when Jesus Returns. We know this from 1 Thessalonians 4:17, where Paul says; those who are alive and remain......
Also from Revelation 12:14, where the faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety.
They will be gathered to Jesus at His Return, as Matthew 24:30-31 says.

 

[Timtofly]

This is your error.
Many people will be alive when Jesus Returns. We know this from 1 Thessalonians 4:17, where Paul says; those who are alive and remain......
Also from Revelation 12:14, where the faithful Christians are taken to a place of safety.
They will be gathered to Jesus at His Return, as Matthew 24:30-31 says.

The return is at the 6th seal. Then the harvest. Then the Millennium. Only Satan raises any objections. What do you object to?

 

[keras]

The return is at the 6th seal. Then the harvest. Then the Millennium. Only Satan raises any objections. What do you object to?

What sort of reply is this? Am I Satanic to question you?

You are wrong and Satan would object as well, to your placement of Jesus Return at the Sixth Seal; as he would miss out on his rule for 42 months. Revelation 13:4

At the Sixth Seal Jesus is not seen, He sends fire to destroy His enemies; the attackers of Israel. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6

 

[Timtofly]

What sort of reply is this? Am I Satanic to question you?

You are wrong and Satan would object as well, to your placement of Jesus Return at the Sixth Seal; as he would miss out on his rule for 42 months. Revelation 13:4

At the Sixth Seal Jesus is not seen, He sends fire to destroy His enemies; the attackers of Israel. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6

Every single person on earth sees the one on the throne and the Lamb. You claim i am in error. I am just pointing out what the Bible states.

You object, because the Lamb takes many to Jerusalem? How is the Lamb not seen, if millions just show up at once. Would they not be fired on, because they have trespassed? Would not Jesus Christ have to do some explaining?

 

[keras]

Every single person on earth sees the one on the throne and the Lamb. You claim i am in error. I am just pointing out what the Bible states.

Revelation 6:15-17 does not say the Lord will be seen on His Day of fiery wrath.
It is only at His Return in glory, that every eye will see Him.

You object, because the Lamb takes many to Jerusalem? How is the Lamb not seen, if millions just show up at once. Would they not be fired on, because they have trespassed? Would not Jesus Christ have to do some explaining?

Too confused to reply to. No one is 'taken' anywhere at the Sixth Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 6:15-17 does not say the Lord will be seen on His Day of fiery wrath.
It is only at His Return in glory, that every eye will see Him.

Too confused to reply to. No one is 'taken' anywhere at the Sixth Seal.

Why are they hiding if they cannot see the One on throne and the Lamb?

 

[keras]

Why are they hiding if they cannot see the One on throne and the Lamb?

Because they know their punishment is from God.
He stays in heaven; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

 

[Timtofly]

Because they know their punishment is from God.
He stays in heaven; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

Psalms 11:4-6 does not prove God's throne cannot relocate. It is currently in heaven, that is understood.

Psalms 18:9 says God does come down.
9 He bowed the heavens also and came down, and darkness was under his feet.

Even Habakkuk 3 declares God is not held to a fixed location. God can come to earth.

Revelation 22:3-5
3 no longer will there be any curses. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will worship him;
4 they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
5 Night will no longer exist, so they will need neither the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because Adonai, God, will shine upon them. And they will reign as kings forever and ever.

God does not limit His presence in heaven alone.

 

[keras]

God does not limit His presence in heaven alone.

That is a given, as He did walk upon the earth in Genesis.

The issue of whether the Sixth Seal when He 'comes' in His fiery wrath, is the same as His Return in glory, is resolved by how the Scroll of Revelation is not opened until the Seventh Seal is removed.
Then; all the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls must happen, culminating in Jesus Returning at the Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:17, 19:11

It cannot be that the Lord will be seen on His terrible Day of wrath, because that would undeniably prove His existence. That people can and will continue to deny God's existence, is proved by how most will worship the Anti-Christ during the end times. Revelation 13

 

[Timtofly]

That is a given, as He did walk upon the earth in Genesis.

The issue of whether the Sixth Seal when He 'comes' in His fiery wrath, is the same as His Return in glory, is resolved by how the Scroll of Revelation is not opened until the Seventh Seal is removed.
Then; all the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls must happen, culminating in Jesus Returning at the Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:17, 19:11

It cannot be that the Lord will be seen on His terrible Day of wrath, because that would undeniably prove His existence. That people can and will continue to deny God's existence, is proved by how most will worship the Anti-Christ during the end times. Revelation 13

Matthew 21:37-41

37 Finally, he sent them his son, saying, ‘My son they will respect.’
38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance!’
39 So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 They answered him, “He will viciously destroy those vicious men and rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the crop when it’s due.”

This is the time the owner and the Lamb are coming. God's chosen people had their time. The church has had her time. It is the final harvest. God on the throne has come to earth in the 6th Seal. If you think God was upset with His chosen people the first time, what about an apostate church? The apostate church will not see revival. They will dig in to their disbelief even more than the Pharisees and Saddusees. They will grow worse that those in the wilderness who forced Aaron to make a golden calf at Mt. Sinai while Moses was with God.

If there is no revival and healing in the next few months, all those left in the judgment of the apostate church will embrace Satan way more in the open, before God, than they do in feigned worship of God now.

 

[keras]

If there is no revival and healing in the next few months, all those left in the judgment of the apostate church will embrace Satan way more in the open, before God, than they do in feigned worship of God now.

You and I know there is no likelihood of a revival anytime soon.
What will happen will be as prophesied; The great reset of our civilization, as happened in the days of Noah. 2 Peter 3:1-7

 

[Levaire]

no, Matthew 24:15-31 (the complete set of verses) is not a parallel with Luke 21:20-21.

Matthew 24:15-31 is end times. Those verses are that the Jews will go through the great tribulation and will witness Jesus's Return. And them in Judaea will receive (divine protection, implied) by fleeing in to the mountains.

Matthew 24:32-51 is end times.

I used to think the same thing. You'll want to study up on the Jewish idiom "day of the Lord" and look at all the Old Testament examples of it in play. And then--once you've studied that out--come back and read Mt 24:15-31 with those eyes. This is not actually rapture or end times language but a cosmic "lights out" warning from Jesus to the nation of Israel and it all came to fruition within THAT generation, just as Jesus said it would.

 

[Douggg]

I used to think the same thing. You'll want to study up on the Jewish idiom "day of the Lord" and look at all the Old Testament examples of it in play. And then--once you've studied that out--come back and read Mt 24:15-31 with those eyes. This is not actually rapture or end times language but a cosmic "lights out" warning from Jesus to the nation of Israel and it all came to fruition within THAT generation, just as Jesus said it would.

Welcome to the forum, Levaire.

I agree with the rapture is not in Matthew 24:15-31. A lot people, them holding the post-trib view use Matthew 24:31 in their interpretation of the rapture. I do not. I have a view which I call the anytime rapture view.

Matthew 24:15-31 is not first century though, although Luke 21:20-24 is first century.

In Luke 21:24, the Jews are led away, forced into the nations, until the time of the gentiles ends.

In Luke 21:20-21, the sign for that generation to watch for, to flee to the mountains for safety, is when they see Jerusalem compassed with armies.

Differently, in Matthew 24:15-31, end times, the sign for the end times generation to watch for is when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Which the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is time of the end in text.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have a view which I call the anytime rapture view.

Fine. The "anytime rapture" can occur when the last trump is blown and Christ returns, the event that no man knows when thus "anytime". Not "anytime rapture" before the Great Tribulation. Silly you.

Matthew 24:15-31 is not first century though, although Luke 21:20-24 is first century.

In Luke 21:24, the Jews are led away, forced into the nations, until the time of the gentiles ends.

You are mistaken. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 has nothing to do with Jews in Judea in the Middle East. It is about God's New Testament congregation with spiritual Jews in the time prior to Christ's Second Coming, Matthew 24:30-31.

In Luke 21:20-21, the sign for that generation to watch for, to flee to the mountains for safety, is when they see Jerusalem compassed with armies.

No, the generation of Luke 21 has nothing to do with national Israel. The generation Christ talked about is the spiritual family of Satan. The generation will not expire until all things are fulfilled at Second Coming then all spiritual family of Satan will end with a judgment. Nothing to do with Israel, the literal mountains, or literal city.

Diifferently, in Matthew 24:15-31, end times, the sign for the end times generation to watch for is when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

You do not even know what the abomination of Desolation is. Where is the holy place at time time of the Cross? Is it not the Church, God's congregation? God did not talk about national Isarel or third temple. The church is temple of God since the Cross. Period.

Which the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is time of the end in text.

Wrong Israel, Buddy.

 

[Douggg]

Fine. The "anytime rapture" can occur when the last trump is blown and Christ returns, the event that no man knows when thus "anytime". Not "anytime rapture" before the Great Tribulation. Silly you.



You are mistaken. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 has nothing to do with Jews in Judea in the Middle East. It is about God's New Testament congregation with spiritual Jews in the time prior to Christ's Second Coming, Matthew 24:30-31.



No, the generation of Luke 21 has nothing to do with national Israel. The generation Christ talked about is the spiritual family of Satan. The generation will not expire until all things are fulfilled at Second Coming then all spiritual family of Satan will end with a judgment. Nothing to do with Israel, the literal mountains, or literal city.



You do not even know what the abomination of Desolation is. Where is the holy place at time time of the Cross? Is it not the Church, God's congregation? God did not talk about national Isarel or third temple. The church is temple of God since the Cross. Period.



Wrong Israel, Buddy.

To idealists, nothing is literal. The bible is all symbolism.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.

 

[TribulationSigns]

To idealists, nothing is literal. The bible is all symbolism.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.

Amen! Let me know if you believe we will see a literal beast coming out of the mediterranean sea having seven literal horns and bear feet. Or an asteroid hitting Earth somewhere in the ocean and turn waters into blood. What blood will it be? Human? Animals? Silly.

 

[Douggg]

Amen! Let me know if you believe we will see a literal beast coming out of the mediterranean sea having seven literal horns and bear feet. Or an asteroid hitting Earth somewhere in the ocean and turn waters into blood. What blood will it be? Human? Animals? Silly.

But you have metaphors of an actual nation. Israel over there is simply a fact. Having fulfilled Isaiah 66:7-8, on May 14, 1948.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But you have metaphors of an actual nation. Israel over there is simply a fact.

Nope!

Having fulfilled Isaiah 66:7-8, on May 14, 1948.

You need to learn to read the context surrounding verses 7-8.

Verse 12-13 is talking about woman as MOTHER, which fulfilled Galatians 4:24-26, also 21-31 for fuller context.

Not talking about the physical city Jerusalem, but our mother, New Jerusalem which is above. God is talking about the CONGREGATION of Israel who once represented Old Testament Israel, now represents New Testament Israel, the Church. She is one Israel, spiritual Israel!

I don't expect that you Christian Zionism with dispensationalist theology understands Isaiah 66 unless given by the Holy Spirit to understand who woman (mother) really is.

Gday!

 

[Douggg]

Nope!

You can't even recognize Israel over there plain as day as fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

What about Ezekiel 38/39, who does Gog/Magog attack in the latter days, latter years, 7 years before Jesus returns and is speaking Himself in Ezekiel 39:21-22 and the rest of Ezekiel 39?