Matthew 24, the divide

[BABerean2]

But Jesus did. He prophesied it in Luke 13:32 and again, six times in Revelation 20.

Then why did He leave no mortals alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem is the place to worship?

Why did Paul say the fire comes at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

Why did Paul say Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Why did Paul say death dies at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15?

Why did the author of the Book of Hebrews say animal sacrifices are no more in Hebrews 10:16-18?

Why is the time of the judgment of the dead also found in Revelation 11:15-18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible?

Why do those promoting the Premill doctrine have to claim the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, when it clearly is not based on Revelation 16:15-16?

Why do those promoting the Premill doctrine ignore the fact that angels have already been bound in some manner in Revelation 9:14?

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[Douggg]

Jeremiah 31:39-40 The days are coming when Jerusalem will be rebuilt in My honor. It will be holy to Me, never again to be demolished.

This passage from the book of the prophet Jeremiah, tells the story of how the Lord will judge the unrighteous, then how His people, every faithful Christian, the Israelites of God, will go to live in the Land that He promised to their [spiritual] forefathers.

God will make a new covenant with them, in order for them to fulfil their destiny to be a light to the nations, and to spread to gospel of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19 – also described in Revelation 7 and 14 as the 144,000.

Many more prophesied events will take place, then, will come the culmination of this age – the Return of Jesus, to reign for 1000 years.

Keras, why doesn't Matthew 24:32-51 support your idea of a Corona Mass Ejection Solar Event that depopulates the middle east?

Jesus in Matthew 24:32-51 is not saying look for that.

Mattthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

No CME event, Keras. What Jesus is describing is like today.

 

[Douggg]

Why do those promoting the Premill doctrine have to claim the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, when it clearly is not based on Revelation 16:15-16?

Why do those promoting the Premill doctrine ignore the fact that angels have already been bound in some manner in Revelation 9:14?

Well, you have to look at the specific verses in Revelation, that pre-mil claims are in order.

The Great White Throne judgment to end Chapter 20, the millennium. Then the new heaven and new earth of eternity, in Chapter 21.

It is pretty straightforward and simple. What's the objection?

 

[BABerean2]

Well, you have to look at the specific verses in Revelation, that pre-mil claims are in order.

The Great White Throne judgment to end Chapter 20, the millennium. Then the new heaven and new earth of eternity, in Chapter 21.

It is pretty straightforward and simple. What's the objection?

There are multiple visions of the return of Christ in the Book of Revelation, which prove the book is not in chronological order.


Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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[Timtofly]

Why do those promoting the Premill doctrine have to claim the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, when it clearly is not based on Revelation 16:15-16?

How many books have you read that have been out of order? We see that when the 7 Thunders were sounding, John was told not to write about them. John was even writing down the events as he saw them, why would he go back and switch the events around and place them under Trumpets if they had been under vials when he saw them? You mean he purposely edited the events and jumbled them by type, instead of keeping the original thoughts with each judgment set as he witnessed them?

 

[Douggg]

There are multiple visions of the return of Christ in the Book of Revelation, which prove the book is not in chronological order.

Okay, but that is not the point. Every verse is not out of chronological order. Chapter 20 followed by Chapter 21, chronological order, those two chapters.

 

[BABerean2]

Okay, but that is not the point. Every verse is not out of chronological order. Chapter 20 followed by Chapter 21, chronological order, those two chapters.

Then why is the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, found in Revelation 11:15-18, and also at the end of chapter 20?

What did Paul say in 2 Timothy 4:1?


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[BABerean2]

How many books have you read that have been out of order?

Based on the scripture below, at least one.


Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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[keras]

What did Paul say in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead......

This verse doesn't say this will happen at Jesus Return. Revelation 20:1-15 tells us when.

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?

The descriptions of the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, make it clear that He is not seen on that Day. The Return in glory comes at least 7 years later, after all of Rev 7-19:10, takes place.

No CME event, Keras. What Jesus is describing is like today.

Have you even bothered to find out about CME's? Look at Spaceweather.com They tell us about the suns activity; currently in Solar Cycle 25, becoming more active now.
Why must you deny the plain Words of prophesies like Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1 ?

Jesus said He will set fire to the earth..... Luke 12:49 Wait for the Day....Romans 1:18

 

[BABerean2]

Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to Judge the living and the dead......

This verse doesn't say this will happen at Jesus Return.

When you cut the verse in half like you did it does not say this will happen at Jesus Return.

Some of us do not need to cut verses in half to make our doctrine work.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Since I used to teach a unit on Astronomy, and was a member of the local Astronomy club, I would probably know more about the mechanisms of a CME than you do. I was able to refute your lunar Thermite theory without much trouble.

Our school had a 6" reflecting telescope with a solar filter.
My students understood sunspot pairs, because they saw them with their own eyes.

I also have a HAM radio license, so solar activity often effects that hobby as well.

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[Douggg]

Then why is the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, found in Revelation 11:15-18, and also at the end of chapter 20?

What did Paul say in 2 Timothy 4:1?


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Read Revelation 11:15 again.

bema seat of Christ takes place in heaven while Satan and his third of the angels bent on destruction of the earth will be cast down to earth, to be destroyed.

 

[Douggg]

Why must you deny the plain Words of prophesies like Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1 ?

Jesus said He will set fire to the earth..... Luke 12:49 Wait for the Day....Romans 1:18

Isaiah 30:26 = Revelation 16-8-11.
Malachi 4:1 = metaphoric language for judgment during the great tribulation.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Elijah one of the two witnesses, for 1260 days, witnessing to Israel before the day of the Lord begins.

_______________________________________________________

Keras, in your scenario, to comply with Malachi 4:5-6, you are going to have to have Elijah appearing and present before the CME day of the Lord event you are claiming to destroy the middle east population.

 

[BABerean2]

Read Revelation 11:15 again.

bema seat of Christ takes place in heaven while Satan and his third of the angels bent on destruction of the earth will be cast down to earth, to be destroyed.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


I could not find the words "bema seat" in the passage, because those words are not in the text.

You have added them to make your doctrine work.

Why are angels already bound in Revelation 9:14?


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[Douggg]

I could not find the words "bema seat" in the passage, because those words are not in the text.

You have added them to make your doctrine work.

Romans 14:10, 2Corinthains5:10

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 14:10, 2Corinthains5:10

OK...


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


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[keras]

When you cut the verse in half like you did it does not say this will happen at Jesus Return.

Some of us do not need to cut verses in half to make our doctrine work.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I set myself up for that one!
But, still my version does not say His Judgment happen at His Return. Proved by Rev 20:11-15
2 Timothy 4:1 Before God and before Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearance and His reign, v2 to proclaim the message...... REBible
Here Paul is using the fact of Jesus Return, reign and Judgement, as support for us to proclaim the Gospel.
It isn't and cannot be used as proof that Judgment happens at the Return at all. We KNOW it doesn't, as He will separate the nations; sheep and goats, Matthew 25:31-34, when He Returns, but the Judgement of every individual awaits the end of His 1000 year reign.

Since I used to teach a unit on Astronomy, and was a member of the local Astronomy club, I would probably know more about the mechanisms of a CME than you do. I was able to refute your lunar Thermite theory without much trouble.

Explain to us then what is Isaiah 30:26 talking about?
Thermite? I have got better info, no thanks to you and the moon will shone bright red from a thermoluminescent reaction when it is struck by the superheated hydrogen blasted from the sun.

Isaiah 30:26 = Revelation 16-8-11.
Malachi 4:1 = metaphoric language for judgment during the great tribulation.

The Fourth Bowl will be another, smaller CME, directed solely at the unrepentant people.

Malachi 4:1-3 is an amazing prophecy about how those who fear His Name will rise up on the terrible Day that comes like a furnace; burning wicked peoples into ashes.
Those godless peoples will be the ones who will attack Israel; the Islamic nations and entities.
The entire Middle East will be virtually depopulated. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Jeremiah 10:18

 

[Timtofly]

Based on the scripture below, at least one.

You put them in order in your post.

 

[BABerean2]

You put them in order in your post.

If that is what you think, you need to read it again.

If there are six different visions of the same Second Coming, what kind of order are you looking for?


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[Timtofly]

If that is what you think, you need to read it again.

If there are six different visions of the same Second Coming, what kind of order are you looking for?

It is the same second coming. A lot happens. The order John lays out is just fine.

If you agree there is only one Second Coming, re-arranging the chapters makes no sense.

The Second Coming starts the Day of the Lord. The church is taken out. Sheep are killed, wheat is harvested. Then God's wrath destroys all the wicked. All are dead.

Then God resurrects the sheep and wheat. They rule with Christ for 1000 years. Then all the wicked from all time are cast into the lake of fire. The Day of the Lord is the last 1000 years, without any of Adam's sinful descendants with a sinful nature. We know that even the elect can be decieved by Satan. Claiming the Millennium is now instead of after Armageddon does not change any facts. It does change God's Word.

Which is more important? Leaving God's Word as written, or making it fit your private theology, based on a private interpretation. Changing God's Word even using Scripture is still a private interpretation, because it changes God's written Word. It does not follow the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not change God's Word.

 

[BABerean2]

It is the same second coming. A lot happens. The order John lays out is just fine.

If you agree there is only one Second Coming, re-arranging the chapters makes no sense.

The Second Coming starts the Day of the Lord. The church is taken out. Sheep are killed, wheat is harvested. Then God's wrath destroys all the wicked. All are dead.

Then God resurrects the sheep and wheat. They rule with Christ for 1000 years. Then all the wicked from all time are cast into the lake of fire. The Day of the Lord is the last 1000 years, without any of Adam's sinful descendants with a sinful nature. We know that even the elect can be decieved by Satan. Claiming the Millennium is now instead of after Armageddon does not change any facts. It does change God's Word.

Which is more important? Leaving God's Word as written, or making it fit your private theology, based on a private interpretation. Changing God's Word even using Scripture is still a private interpretation, because it changes God's written Word. It does not follow the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not change God's Word.

It is quite strange that some of us are willing to re-interpret the whole New Testament to fit their interpretation of Revelation chapter 20, and then accuse others of changing God's Word.

They have one finger pointing at others, and three fingers pointing back in their direction.

They ignore, or re-interpret Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 9:14, and Revelation 11:18, to fit the figurative language of Revelation chapter 20.

Then they claim the book of Revelation is in chronological order, when Revelation 16:15-16 proves it is not.

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