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And any expositor should also know that Parallel texts do not talk about two different things and that just because there may be some similarities between two texts, that does not necessarily mean that they are talking about the same thing or the same event. Expositors also take every detail of the compared texts into account.
And any expositor should also know that Parallel texts do not talk about two different things
and that just because there may be some similarities between two texts, that does not necessarily mean that they are talking about the same thing or the same event. Expositors also take every detail of the compared texts into account.
in the second century A.D. that the Church widely believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ who would demand to be worshipped as God but they did not believe him to be any of the Roman emperors.
That there is an opinion?Uninspired opinions are interesting, but can not be relied on as apostolic writ
What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?
Contenders Edge said: ↑
And any expositor should also know that Parallel texts do not talk about two different things and that just because there may be some similarities between two texts, that does not necessarily mean that they are talking about the same thing or the same event. Expositors also take every detail of the compared texts into account.
The silence is deafening..........What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?
The armies were the abomination. (Matthew 24:15 parallel verse).
Their advance into Jerusalem, the holy city, signaled the approach of desolation.
What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?
#2050 used only in these 3 versesIt was called "armies" by Luke.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?
Correct... because they are PARALLEL.
that's what PARALLEL means.
The two texts in question are separate, PARALLEL accounts of the SAME DISCOURSE, indeed the SAME SENTENCE spoken By Jesus at this ONE point in time.
Which makes it Impossible that each account means something completely opposite from the other.
The silence is deafening..........
That the second century church believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ and that they did not believe that he was anyone presently reigning should be enough. They had more in common with dispensationalist beliefs than Preterist beliefs.
the Anti-Christ is the only known figure in scripture to carry the title of the abomination of desolation.
Who associated Matthew 24 or Luke 21 with a future antichrist?
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) (On Matthew 24:3,34) “But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: “See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . .” And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)
Interesting.......
There are numerous forms of the root word G2945
2945. kukloi koo'-klo as if dative case of kuklos (a ring, "cycle"; akin to 2947); i.e. in a circle (by implication, of 1722), i.e. (adverbially) all around:--round about.
========================
2944. kukloo koo-klo'-o from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.
G2944 κυκλόω (kykloō) occurs 7 times in in 5 verses
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her
Now this is interesting. It used in 1 verse of Revelation.........Since it is used in 70AD Luke and the Jewish Wars, perhaps, however farfetched, this could be the 1st century Jewish Rebels, not a Gentle army. Just now thought of that.
Will have to look at this closer also......A lot of Hebrew Jewish symbology.........
Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded<2944>the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
============================================
Used on in this 1 verse
4033. peri kukloo per-ee-koo-klo'-o from 4012 and 2944; to encircle all around, i.e. blockade completely:--compass round.
Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work/circumvallation<5482 to Thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> thee, and pressing thee every which place.
This rendering of the Greek only shows that the abomination of desolation is not an army and because it is in the Holy Place, which would be a Temple, it is already inside the city, which means it does not necessarily enter the city by way of force as the surrounding armies did in 70 A.D. The abomination of desolation can only be pertaining to an event that has not yet transpired.
We know Jesus foretold the desolation of Jerusalem which came to pass in 70 A.D. We also know that he foretold the coming abomination of desolation which by all historical accounts has not yet come to pass. The most complicated part in cross-checking the three accounts is pin pointing at what point in the discourse the abomination of desolation was mentioned. We know it was mentioned during that same occasion, we just do not know for sure at what point.
(See John 10:22 to understand the connection to Daniel.)
Are you claiming the above are not parallel accounts?
Do you deny that Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices during 167 BC?
Did the same thing happen again during 70 AD?
What other figure could it be?
No one is disputing whether or not Jesus foretold the destruction of the Temple which came to pass but whether or not the accounts of Mark and Matthew are speaking of a time to come after the destruction of the Temple in which case would require Jerusalem to recover from its desolation, which it has, and the presence of another Temple, which has not taken place. It needs to taken into account that Jesus foretells the destruction of the Temple before the disciples asked Him what would happen before His return. Your source does not mention who Clement thought the abomination of desolation might be.
But the abomination of desolation, like Antiochus Epiphanes, will usurp the Temple of God
jgr said: ↑
What recognized post-apostolic scholar before 1800 AD disagreed that Luke and Matthew were referring to the same event?
That the second century church believed in a forthcoming Anti-Christ and that they did not believe that he was anyone presently reigning should be enough. They had more in common with dispensationalist beliefs than Preterist beliefs.
jgr said: ↑
Who associated Matthew 24 or Luke 21 with a future antichrist?
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) (On Matthew 24:3,34) “But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: “See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . .” And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)
Contenders Edge said: ↑
No one is disputing whether or not Jesus foretold the destruction of the Temple which came to pass but whether or not the accounts of Mark and Matthew are speaking of a time to come after the destruction of the Temple in which case would require Jerusalem to recover from its desolation, which it has, and the presence of another Temple, which has not taken place. It needs to taken into account that Jesus foretells the destruction of the Temple before the disciples asked Him what would happen before His return. Your source does not mention who Clement thought the abomination of desolation might be.
An interesting commentary I just found when doing a google search on "Clement on Olivet Discourse"Clement did not futurize his comments regarding Matthew 24.
I like Clement........jgr said: ↑
Who associated Matthew 24 or Luke 21 with a future antichrist?
Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) (On Matthew 24:3,34) “But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: “See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . .” And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken. (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)
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