Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

[Timtofly]

All eschatology has taught post trib, Second Coming. That is wrong. Splitting the rapture from the Second Coming was the wrong correction. Instead of splitting them, the right correction would be moving the Second Coming to the proper time frame. It is the Second Coming that is an unknown timed event. The Trumpets and Thunders will cover the Second earthly ministry of the Lamb. This is the harvest for His 1000 year reign. These souls do not remain in their sin nature corruptible bodies. The souls are harvested from their bodies by angels and taken through time. That is the symbolism of "hiding in the wilderness".

The church does not need all this detail, because the church is not going to be living and procreating on earth for 1000 years. John left all the millennium details to what we get from the OT prophets, because the church does not need to understand these details. The church is finished and complete in the 6th Seal. They are shown in the temple of God in Revelation 7. That is Paradise. The NT never developed the conditions of Paradise either. It was just that unobservable "kingdom" in heaven that is not made up of sinful corruptible flesh, but of permanent incorruptible bodies.

Theologians have been speculating ever since the first century adding Greek and other pagan thoughts into the Scriptures.

 

[Jamdoc]

All eschatology has taught post trib, Second Coming. That is wrong. Splitting the rapture from the Second Coming was the wrong correction. Instead of splitting them, the right correction would be moving the Second Coming to the proper time frame. It is the Second Coming that is an unknown timed event. The Trumpets and Thunders will cover the Second earthly ministry of the Lamb. This is the harvest for His 1000 year reign. These souls do not remain in their sin nature corruptible bodies. The souls are harvested from their bodies by angels and taken through time. That is the symbolism of "hiding in the wilderness".

The church does not need all this detail, because the church is not going to be living and procreating on earth for 1000 years. John left all the millennium details to what we get from the OT prophets, because the church does not need to understand these details. The church is finished and complete in the 6th Seal. They are shown in the temple of God in Revelation 7. That is Paradise. The NT never developed the conditions of Paradise either. It was just that unobservable "kingdom" in heaven that is not made up of sinful corruptible flesh, but of permanent incorruptible bodies.

Theologians have been speculating ever since the first century adding Greek and other pagan thoughts into the Scriptures.

You have this goofy idea that nobody actually gets raptured everyone dies.
But Paul and Jesus taught differently

Matthew 24:21-22

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Sure, everyone would die if the GT was let go unchecked, but Jesus shortens them with the rapture.

and Paul
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

second witness (although really Paul is the second witness by himself to this truth)?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

You have this goofy idea that nobody actually gets raptured everyone dies.
But Paul and Jesus taught differently

Matthew 24:21-22

I stated the rapture happens and the church is taken away. My claim is the Second Coming and the rapture happen at the 6th Seal.

Sure, everyone would die if the GT was let go unchecked, but Jesus shortens them with the rapture.

and Paul
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

The church will be raptured. All left behind will die. The salvation comes because the Trumpets and Thunders are shorter in length, and the Second Coming happens later than at the exact 3.5 year mark. The church age is not cut short. The Second Coming and rapture is held off.

second witness (although really Paul is the second witness by himself to this truth)?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The separation of the sheep and goats happen after the Second Coming and the church is gone. Sheep and goats are National Israel being judged during the time the Trumpets and Thunders are given in judgment on the world. The first 4 Seals are judgments on the earth while the church waits for the Rapture and Second Coming in the 5th and 6th Seal. The 5th Seal is the glorification of the church. The dead in Christ are glorified seconds before those alive on earth are changed and glorified. Together the church is presented to God on the throne and all are in the Temple of God, Paradise.

Those in Christ have risen first and have gone ahead of those alive. We have not prevented them from their permanent incorruptible bodies. Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 explains to be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord (Paradise per His promise to the thief on the Cross) in a permanent incorruptible body.

At the Second Coming of the 6th Seal, the church living on earth will "die" changed in mid air from a corruptible body to a permanent incorruptible body. Also glorified in a robe of white (light) at the same time. John points out the same event as Paul does, except John is coming from the viewpoint of Paradise. Paul is looking with the understanding of sinful corrupt flesh looking up from earth.

John gives us the Coming judgment to those on earth like Christ does. Starting with the Trumpets and harvest of Israel. Paul shows us the escape from the Coming judgment because the church is already judged. Christ is explaining to His Jewish readers, the early church, the Second Coming and the judgments, but that National Israel is not part of the church. The National Israelite will be resurrected after the time of Judgment to rule in the Millennium.

Many try to place the rapture into Matthew as some sort of proof. Paul and other NT books point to the church and redemption in Paradise. Jesus never places His own people, the house of Jacob, as going to Paradise and does not place National Israel into a rapture scenario that takes them to Paradise.

I understand this is a big topic in Soteriology and the Covenant both OT and NT. The church is not replacing any Covenant. The church is the Atonement Covenant of all time starting with Abel. The Covenant with Jacob, Abraham, and Moses when Israel was called out of Egypt point to the NT, but is and always will be a physical Covenant. Noah was given the Covenant with the Nations apart from the Covenant with Israel as a separate nation, chosen directly as God's people on earth.

The church comes out of the nations and Israel. Israel is brought out of the nations after being rejected by God for 2000 years. Even some people from every nation will be sown to be ransomed by Jesus Christ's own judgment on them to also live and reign on earth. That is the point about the Millennium many plainly reject. They seem fixated on only a church and no one else on earth or heaven. The sons of God and angels are separate from the church. The church is not the all in all of created beings. The church is the all in Christ Himself. Like Adam was called out from all other sons of God to populate the Garden of Eden, which he failed at, after 30 years. Jesus came, was baptized at 30, and redeemed many from Adam's fallen flesh back into Paradise, that Adam failed in accomplishing.

That is why there are people on earth for 1000 years separate from the church. The church cannot procreate. Angels cannot procreate. No where does it say the sons of God come back and procreate on earth. The only ones left to procreate for 1000 years are resurrected humans in incorruptible bodies without sin nature, sin, nor Satan present this time around. Christ Himself will rule since He replaced Adam in all things. He will sit on the throne of David, thus the location is in Jerusalem.

To populate the earth is the Sabbath Day set apart as Holy unto God. The church nor the historical Israelite needed to have all the details. Both John and Daniel were told to seal some of their prophecy until the last days. No one was ever told to deny or reject a future millennium, at least not by God or the Lamb. No one was told to promote it either, because it is not a priority for the church, nor for the church at all. In Paradise with God it will be a Day. God and the church in Paradise understand what a Day is. We do not.

God only claims in the 4th Commandment that humans were to only work 6 Days. 6000 years. This would be lost on the early church and National Israel from Moses to the Cross. Now at the end of the 6000 years, 5991 to be precise. Christ was on the Cross at the 4000 year mark. The life of Christ mirrors Adam's. Adam was placed in the Garden 4000 years to the minute of the birth of Jesus. Jesus was obedient to God in Baptism 30 years from the disobedience of Adam. Adam's disobedience comes to an end by the fall of 2026 at the latest. Some claim Jesus was baptized in 27AD. 3.5 years before April of 30AD is the fall of 2026.

Satan's 42 months and the battle of Armageddon cannot happen later than fall of 2026. This is not setting a date for the Second Coming. This is setting a date for the end of sin and the 7th Trumpet. At least the end if Satan gets 42 months. If there is no 42 months the 7th Trumpet could be in the fall of 2026 or the spring of 2023. The punishment could be declared over 42 months sooner, with or without Satan's 42 months. The 7th Trumpet is the last event of the Second Coming. This 3.5 years called the first half of Daniel's 70th week, not viewed as the earthly ministry of Christ, but attributing the Covenant of Atonement with an alledged agreement of an alleged AC. Satan's 42 months is the last half. I do not accept this scenario.

The time of the 7th Trumpet as 42 months is an extension of time. But it has to happen prior to the end of the promise. The gamble was on Satan's part. If Satan does not get an extension, the 7th Trumpet still already will have happened. It cannot be undone. This has to fix the 7th Trumpet in the spring of 2023, and Adam's punishment will be reduced by 3.5 years.

Now I realize no one has ever presented this as given. At least not connected to the 4th Commandment. Nor does the 30AD time of the Cross align with contemporary or historical theology. Paul did not give any more of the detail how Christ mirrors Adam other than what we have in Paul's writings. No one seems to agree on an exact 4000 year time frame between Adam and Christ. All we have is the 4th Commandment. God's promise is still only taken by faith, without sight.

I place Daniel's 70th week as the Revelation of God on earth. The first 3.5 years was a judgment on His people and they rejected their Messiah. The Second Coming would be the last 3.5 years of Christ's Revelation during the Trumpets and Thunders. Except the longer Christ tarries, the shorter Daniel's 70th week becomes. God shortens Daniel's 70th week to allow the salvation of many into the church. The church could humble herself pray, seek God's face, turn from wickedness and reap a golden harvest in preparation of being presented as a worthy bride. God could heal all nations. That would then shorten Adam's punishment, and Satan gets nothing.

 

[iamlamad]

These are unbelievers that don't believe in God, they will only believe when they see Him in the clouds.
Revelation 6:15-16

This is the 'every eye shall see him', and 'all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him' moment.

At Armageddon they're not wailing. They're challenging Him to a fight.
What happens is Jesus shows up in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath on the world, and they curse God for it instead of repent. Then they're led to Armageddon, knowing He'll come back to the Earth at Jerusalem, and they're prepared to fight, not repent. They're done wailing at that point. Then Jesus comes down and destroys them all. But the first time they see Him, they wail. It's at that point that they even believe He's real. But they still don't repent. They still rebel the entire time.



Because you don't see that Jesus comes back at the 6th seal (yet you believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, how you don't understand that the rapture IS the return of Christ is beyond me. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout," You do not have the rapture without Jesus coming down in the clouds first.), and don't recognize that those events are in the same order, you don't see them as duplicates. But, if you do understand they're in the same order, then you'll understand they are different perspectives of the same events.
Revelation doesn't "jump around" in time randomly. It's 2 perspectives of the same time periods with different details, both in order.

In order to put this together you will also need to not blow off Matthew 24 as "not for the church it's for the Jews". Because you do this you don't grasp the timing, and the consistency of the timing shown in scripture.

These are unbelievers that don't believe in God They cannot be ignorant of God's book, because they correctly recognize the signs of the Day of the Lord. They just were not ready so did not go up in the rapture that will trigger the Day of the Lord.

I think they are imagining the face of the Lamb. They are scared out of their wits.
Hey! I could be wrong. Perhaps they SEE Jesus come and get His church. But in that case, He would not appear to have wrath.

This is the 'every eye shall see him', and 'all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him' moment. I think His Rev. 19 coming would be MUCH more likely to be when every eye sees Him.

At Armageddon they're not wailing. Agreed. They wail when they see all the signs for the Day of the Lord. It scares them greatly.

What happens is Jesus shows up in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath on the world, and they curse God for it instead of repent. This is an amazing statement! It is exactly what Paul teaches in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I would only add that although the rapture will be instantaneous, pouring out wrath will cover the entire 7 years. I have long said that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY and for His wrath.

Then they're led to Armageddon, knowing He'll come back to the Earth at Jerusalem, and they're prepared to fight, not repent. No, not "then." Chapters 7 through 18 takes place "then". The spirits are sent out to draw in the armies of the word at the 6th vial, LATE in the week. It seems you just ignore "time."

Because you don't see that Jesus comes back at the 6th seal (yet you believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, how you don't understand that the rapture IS the return of Christ is beyond me.
I have long believed that the rapture will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. When they say "the day of His wrath has come" the rapture is history. The church age martyrs were told judgment (the Day of His wrath) will not come until the final church age martyr is killed, and that will be at the rapture. The rapture ENDS the church age, and TIME reverts to Day of the Lord time. In short, I see His coming for His bride JUST BEFORE the 6th seal. Will He be visible? I doubt it.

IS the return It will be His 2nd coming. His 3rd coming (Rev. 19) will be over 7 years later.

It's 2 perspectives of the same time periods with different details, both in order. In your mind only. Your proof texts were no proof at all.

I think you just don't understand John's chronology. You may think you do.

 

[Jamdoc]

These are unbelievers that don't believe in God They cannot be ignorant of God's book, because they correctly recognize the signs of the Day of the Lord. They just were not ready so did not go up in the rapture that will trigger the Day of the Lord.

I think they are imagining the face of the Lamb. They are scared out of their wits.
Hey! I could be wrong. Perhaps they SEE Jesus come and get His church. But in that case, He would not appear to have wrath.

Before this happens everyone will have heard the Gospel. They just won't believe it. They'll know about the rapture, and will know that God is set to punish the earth, they just don't believe it... until they see it happen. When they see it happen, they will know, because they didn't believe it was the truth, that Jesus is going to take out His wrath on them. Remember, I'm talking about after a global scale persecution of Christians (the Great Tribulation), these people will have been active participants in it, they will have already chosen their "god", and persecuted Christians who refused to worship with them.
So when all the lights in the sky go out.. Jesus will be the only thing to see. They'll see Him, and they KNOW that He is wrathful at them. That is why they react the way they do, hiding in bunkers. Then for the rest of the wrath of God we're not told about people repenting, only those in Israel who repent and give glory to God at the 7th trumpet, but in the rest of the world? They don't repent, they curse God. They KNOW the cause of all of this.
Pretribulationists often come up with theories about how the rapture will be explained away, because their position requires that millions of people come to faith after the rapture, their "tribulation saints" and so Satan has to hide the truth from most people to prevent more people from being saved.
I don't think it'll be explained away, during the wrath of God the people on Earth seem very much aware that it's the Wrath of God poured out on them, but they still rebel.

This is the 'every eye shall see him', and 'all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him' moment. I think His Rev. 19 coming would be MUCH more likely to be when every eye sees Him.

At Armageddon they're not wailing. Agreed. They wail when they see all the signs for the Day of the Lord. It scares them greatly.

Behold He cometh with clouds...
Not He cometh on a white horse, on the Mount of Olives.
The first time people will see Jesus will be in the clouds, and consistently, the rapture involves Jesus coming down in the clouds but does not say He touches down on the Earth.
Here's the other thing.
At Armageddon, they've already mobilized an army there, that's taken months to move over, if the 6th Trumpet is actually giving us the time.. it's taken 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour.
But either way.. they're expecting Him. They know when He is coming, they know where He is coming.
Does that fit with no man knows the day or hour?
No.
So the "no Man knows the day or hour" has to be referring to a different event than Armageddon, where they're already assembled to meet Him in battle.
Consider for a moment that Satan knows the bible better than any one of us.
Satan has mobilized forces to meet Jesus at a specific place at a specific time. Satan knows when and where the battle at Armageddon will be.
That means he knows the book of Revelation, and the book of Daniel like the back of his hand, and since he'll be aware of what event actually starts the 70th week, which may be lost in the blur of information for the rest of us... Satan will be counting down the days.

Yet Matthew 24:36 says not even Angels know.
But Satan knows when Armageddon will be.

So.. the day of Christ's return that Jesus is talking about, is not Armageddon.

What happens is Jesus shows up in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath on the world, and they curse God for it instead of repent. This is an amazing statement! It is exactly what Paul teaches in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I would only add that although the rapture will be instantaneous, pouring out wrath will cover the entire 7 years. I have long said that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY and for His wrath.

The rapture isn't really a trigger. It's an event in a series of events rather than the start.
The start is the releasing of the seals, and those have a few triggers in Revelation 5.
The declaration that the Lamb is worthy to take the book and release the seals, and the prayers of saints that are in the vials. (Revelation 5:7-9). So part of it at least.. is triggered by that Maranatha cry.

Then they're led to Armageddon, knowing He'll come back to the Earth at Jerusalem, and they're prepared to fight, not repent. No, not "then." Chapters 7 through 18 takes place "then". The spirits are sent out to draw in the armies of the word at the 6th vial, LATE in the week. It seems you just ignore "time."

That bit was a summary outline, skipping the details.

Because you don't see that Jesus comes back at the 6th seal (yet you believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, how you don't understand that the rapture IS the return of Christ is beyond me.
I have long believed that the rapture will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. When they say "the day of His wrath has come" the rapture is history. The church age martyrs were told judgment (the Day of His wrath) will not come until the final church age martyr is killed, and that will be at the rapture. The rapture ENDS the church age, and TIME reverts to Day of the Lord time. In short, I see His coming for His bride JUST BEFORE the 6th seal. Will He be visible? I doubt it.

I think He has to be visible, so that people know exactly who is responsible for the calamity of the Wrath of God and are motivated to fight against Him at Armageddon. I don't see a coverup of the rapture, I only see people angry and hating God. That means they know about God, and now believe He exists, and is the cause of all the events happening.

IS the return It will be His 2nd coming. His 3rd coming (Rev. 19) will be over 7 years later.

It's 2 perspectives of the same time periods with different details, both in order. In your mind only. Your proof texts were no proof at all.

I think you just don't understand John's chronology. You may think you do.

It reconciles scripture so neatly, and is consistent with all that scripture, and with the nature of God that we see in the bible.
Other positions and interpretations present inconsistencies, and you end up having to say 'this doesn't make sense to me but I'll trust God'
Revelation was meant to Reveal things to us not hide them.

 

[mikeforjesus]

The carcass was not talking about Christ's body that died at the Cross. Rather, it is His Body that represents His congregation. It is the New Testament church that BECAME unfaithful and being judged for it. Because of increasing number of false prophets within her, she has become spiritually dead. Per the context of Matthew 24:15 and Revelation 18:2-5, God's Elect have been instructed to fled from unfaithful congregation to the Lord's Holy Mountain. We are a witness of God's Word so long as we are on this Earth. God was talking to His People, and how they witness if they have fled from unfaithful congregaton. I mean, SPIRITUALLY, they stand afar off from her sins, not positionally. It is a spiritual mountain, a spiritual city, a spiritual body. It is the judgment by the Word of the Elect prophesied against Babylon the Great for her unfaithfulness. The Elect are the Eagles! Here is why:

Luk 17:34-37
(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
(35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(37) And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

God is talking about HIS PEOPLE working in His Congregation make up of two groups. One group is God's Elect. Another group is professed unsaved Christians. One taken, one left. One will fled from her, standing afar off from her. Other will remian within her, not able to see the abomninations within her. The Elects are the Eagles that the Lord spoken of.

Scripturally, the eagle is symbolic of the Lord's people, who take on "His" characteristics or aspect. Thus they are both protexcted, and have judgment. That is why we read in Scripture, "know ye not that we shall judge messengers," 1st, Cor 6:3. This is the same elect who have the power to shut heaven and it reain not, and have power over waters to turn them to blood. Fugurativelly, of course! Because they have Spirit of God within them and come with the Wored of God coming out of their mouths.

Because of this, We, Elects, are representative of God, and thus we take on the characteristics of God because He, Himself, is the Utlimate Eagle, and being part of His body, we are His Eagles.

Rev 4:6-7
(6) And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
(7) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

This image of the four living creatures symbolically represent certain diverse characteristics of God. The Lion, The Lamb, The Man, and The Flying Ealges. Likewise, His Elects are also characterized as these same creatures because we are His messengers, testifying His Word upon the Earth and His Congregation. This is why we are the ambassadors of God, sent with the Word that JUDGES as an eagles! This is how God has gather His Elect out of unfaithful church (caracass) and give them the word to prophesy against THIS unfaithful body which brings death. This is the judgment of the unfaithful harlot, Revelation 18. After this judgment, Christ returns.

I thought to myself the eagles refers to the body of believers that know where the spiritual food is they search like the eagles for spiritual food to find where the food God has provided through His flesh is which the carcass represents only they eat the food God has provided through His flesh to be able to truly partake of His flesh spiritually as the bible says do not labor for the food which perishes but for the food that the Son of Man will give you for God has set His seal on Him as bible says pursue faith with those who call on the Lord the eagles will gather together are all watching so they will be able to find where the food is when it is there or eagles will point others who listen to them to the food to gather there to be able to commune with Christ spiritually to sustain them to show them how to live in Him and they follow wherever He leads them where the food is made available to partake of Him spiritually to be able to sustain them in tribulation by being able to be instructed by the Lord as His body

As the verse in Matthew below shows the carcass is the body of the Son of Man which the Son of Man allowed for the eagles to come to Him to eat Him because they spiritually seek Him and labor for the food

The verses in Luke either refers to a rapture or second coming also it seems weird I believed there could be a rapture because people are still allowed to work
and as it said Jesus will come when people do not expect it but I don’t know as bible also says this generation will not pass away till all these things take place and we know generation means worshipers of God this generation now refers to Christians in Old Testament the people who followed the law we’re said to keep all their laws throughout their generations as we see the law stopped at coming of messiah but it could mean the generation of Jews will not pass away till they see all things take place or that God will still alllow people to be Christians while it takes place but Luke says wherever the body is the eagles will be gathered together perhaps because the eagles are one with Jesus spiritually when they come together they are able to eat of Him spiritually as they become the body

Mathew 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[iamlamad]

Before this happens everyone will have heard the Gospel. They just won't believe it. They'll know about the rapture, and will know that God is set to punish the earth, they just don't believe it... until they see it happen. When they see it happen, they will know, because they didn't believe it was the truth, that Jesus is going to take out His wrath on them. Remember, I'm talking about after a global scale persecution of Christians (the Great Tribulation), these people will have been active participants in it, they will have already chosen their "god", and persecuted Christians who refused to worship with them.

You have missed it again and again. "Everyone" will not have heard the gospel until Rev. 14 when ANGELS speak to every human in their own language.

Agreed: after the rapture that will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord (6th seal) then all will know about the rapture: probably most families in the world will have family members missing. Since Revelation is written for, and pointed to the Jews, they know the scriptures and after the eathquake and then the signs in the sun and moon, they will KNOW it is the start of the Day of the Lord. On the other hand, the "world" will be clueless. They don't know Joel 2 or Isaiah 2. How could they believe without knowledge of anything to believe?

We are talking about Revelation chapter 6, the church age up to the start of the DAY. The days of great tribulation do not begin in Revelation until after God warns people about the mark - so Rev. 14. It is a huge error to suppose great tribulation in the seals.

So when all the lights in the sky go out.. Jesus will be the only thing to see. They'll see Him, and they KNOW that He is wrathful at them. That is why they react the way they do, hiding in bunkers. Then for the rest of the wrath of God we're not told about people repenting, only those in Israel who repent and give glory to God at the 7th trumpet, but in the rest of the world? They don't repent, they curse God. They KNOW the cause of all of this.

What on earth are you talking about? Did you jump to the time of "after the tribulation of those days?" Do you pay ANY attention to time and timing in Revelation? Please, get this straight finally: the signs at the 6th seal are VISIBLE signs: how would anyone know the moon appeared blood red, UNLESS THEY SAW IT? How in the world would anyone know that the sun appeared black unless they saw it? This is NOT when God turns out the lights. That sign - total darkness - happens over seven years later after the tribulation of those days.

The visible signs of a blood moon and a black sun (total eclipses) will be the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord, and will be seen just after the rapture that shakes up the world. The earthquake at the 6th seal will undoubtedly be caused when God raises the dead in Christ. Undoubtedly it will be Paul's "sudden destruction:" a worldwide earthquake. (The dead in Christ will be found around the world.) It is no mistake that John got to see the raptured church in heaven in his next chapter - as the crowd too large to number.

Then, after the 70th week (Rev. chapter 8 to chapter 16) and after the days of GT, then, finally, over 7 years after the blood moon and black sun, God will turn out the lights and it will be total darkness. This will be the sign of the Lord's coming WITH His saints.

Pretribulationists often come up with theories about how the rapture will be explained away, because their position requires that millions of people come to faith after the rapture, their "tribulation saints" and so Satan has to hide the truth from most people to prevent more people from being saved.
I don't think it'll be explained away, during the wrath of God the people on Earth seem very much aware that it's the Wrath of God poured out on them, but they still rebel.

When perhaps half the world suddenly disappears - trust me - the world is going to come up with some explanation. It is human nature to do so.

"Tribulation saints" are right there - did you not read of the remnant in chapter 12? Pretrib did not create them. Please take John at his word: there is only a remnant left because the main load went out 3.5 years earlier with the rapture. They are probably seen also at the start of chapter 15, when the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. I don't think the beheaded will all be descendants of Jacob. Satan behind the two Beasts will also be hard after anyone who trusts in Jesus.

Behold He cometh with clouds...

He could come a dozen times, and every time His glory would be manifested as a cloud.
However, scripture tells us He will come two more times, and both times He will be coming with the clouds.

Not He cometh on a white horse, on the Mount of Olives.

Are you saying that His coming in Matthew 24 is NOT His coming as shown in Rev. 19?

The first time people will see Jesus will be in the clouds, and consistently, the rapture involves Jesus coming down in the clouds but does not say He touches down on the Earth.
Here's the other thing.
At Armageddon, they've already mobilized an army there, that's taken months to move over, if the 6th Trumpet is actually giving us the time.. it's taken 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour.
But either way.. they're expecting Him. They know when He is coming, they know where He is coming.

You are not understanding John. The angels were prepared for a CERTAIN year, and a CERTAIN month in that year, and a CERTAIN day in that certain month and year and a certain hour in that day. God is NEVER late: these angels will be there at the exact hour appointed.

And just so you know, the 6th trumpet will be the last trumpet of the first half of the week, so perhaps 37 months into the first half. Its just a guess. Jesus will not return as shown in Rev. 19 until more than another 42 months.

Does that fit with no man knows the day or hour?
No.
So the "no Man knows the day or hour" has to be referring to a different event than Armageddon, where they're already assembled to meet Him in battle.

No man will know the day or the hour of EITHER of His comings: not for His coming FOR His church as outlined in 1 Thes. 4, and not for His coming to Armageddon as outlined in Rev. 19 and Matthew 24. (Some people imagine they can count 1260 days from the abomination and know the Day Jesus will return. They are mistaken: Jesus does not return on the last 24 hours of the 70th week. He will return some UNKNOWN time after the week ends.

Consider for a moment that Satan knows the bible better than any one of us.
Satan has mobilized forces to meet Jesus at a specific place at a specific time. Satan knows when and where the battle at Armageddon will be.
That means he knows the book of Revelation, and the book of Daniel like the back of his hand, and since he'll be aware of what event actually starts the 70th week, which may be lost in the blur of information for the rest of us... Satan will be counting down the days.

So you imagine Satan knows the day and the hour? How funny! Not even Jesus knows.

Satan may know approximately, but Not the day or hour. I am guessing you are prewrath.
Sorry, but prewrath theory destroys the scripture, requiring a rewrite or a rearranging of much of the book of Revelation. And it was started because VanKampen did not understand that the cosmic signs were different and would be seen twice. It should have been a HUGE red flag to Him, to imagine the same event would be in chapter 6 and chapter 19.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Jamdoc]

They're already assembled for battle, they know when Armageddon is going to happen, to the day.

and if you believe Revelation is in Chronological order start to finish, you have Jesus appearing in the sky twice (Rev 6, 14), and Jesus claiming the kingdom twice (Rev 11, 19). You have 2 different events that establish finality (Rev 11, 20), 2 groups of 144,000 (Rev 7, 14), 2 waves of persecuting the saints (Rev 6 (5th seal), 12-13), the seas turning to blood twice (2nd trumpet, 2nd bowl), and most gobstoppingly incoherent... Jesus claiming the Kingdom "forever and ever" and then immediately handing control back to Satan.

 

[friend of]

Jesus claiming the Kingdom "forever and ever" and then immediately handing control back to Satan.

JESUS doesn't hand control back to Satan when released. Satan is allowed to rebel one final time only to be destroyed finally.

 

[Jamdoc]

JESUS doesn't hand control back to Satan when released. Satan is allowed to rebel one final time only to be destroyed finally.

Revelation 13:2

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

if Satan has power, a seat, and great authority to bestow to the beast, then either this happens before Revelation 11:15, or Jesus gives that authority BACK to Satan after having taken it away in Revelation 11:15.
The second makes no sense as Jesus has just TAKEN authority away from Satan and is to rule the Kingdom forever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 13:2

if Satan has power, a seat, and great authority to bestow to the beast, then either this happens before Revelation 11:15, or Jesus gives that authority BACK to Satan after having taken it away in Revelation 11:15.
The second makes no sense as Jesus has just TAKEN authority away from Satan and is to rule the Kingdom forever and ever.

Jesus does not have the kingdom until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

"great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Are become is an ongoing action of proclamation. Have become would be completed. The 7th Trumpet is a week long event from Sunday to Sunday. By the end of this event all will be finalized. Daniel 9:27 claims the week is not finalized in that week.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Why does control go to Satan after the 7th Trumpet starts?

Well it is not because of determinism that God has to give Satan 42 months. Notice that the confirmation of the Covenant is the primary reason. This is the Atonement Covenant. The rightful Prince cannot take over control, because free will is still required to finish the Covenant. By that we have proof this overspreading of abominations is not determined. It is allowed, but the stopping of the sacrifices has to stop because they cannot continue during the abomination of desolation.

Satan is not given control after it was given to Christ. Control was not finalized because the Atonement Covenant itself was not complete. Some souls still had the free will choice of being redeemed. This would be a choice like no other. It is during the abomination of desolation, and not under grace nor the Law.

Even when Satan is allowed to do what Satan wants, God still has humans who like Job will choose God over their own desires, even if they have no clue why. Job was given over to Satan except for the act of death itself. During this time of desolation though many will be afforded the free will choice to take the mark or have their head chopped off. The one allowance Satan did not have with Job. Remember that Death is the last enemy, not Satan. This 42 months will show to Satan that even in full control, humans will have the free will choice to even choose death over him. If you read chapter 13 carefully one can notice 2 things.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Satan is allowed to give life to his creation and take life away from those who refuse to worship him and his creation. Satan can only kill those who do not worship him. That same power that Nebuchadnezzar thought he had when he demanded worship. He could not kill those 3 Hebrews who refused worship. However when Satan is in control, God allows Satan this ability. But this is not extended to those who who do not recieve the mark. Satan is not the one removing heads for not receiving the mark. That would take away the free will choice. One could take the mark, be eternally damned, refuse to worship Satan, and still be killed by Satan. Worshipping Satan cannot be connected to refusing the mark. Refusing the mark is the choice to accept God. The only power Satan has is the 2nd thing to notice.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Satan is only allowed to make life miserable for refusing the mark. Satan ties the mark to the economy. This is just a temporal set back. So why would Satan cause them to take the mark? Because the mark is tied to having one's name removed from the Lamb's book of life. One is literally Satan's property once the mark is placed. But only God can give the mark, because only God can remove one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Worshipping Satan does not remove one's name. That is not what this verse says.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This verse states that those who choose to be removed from the Lamb's book of life have of their own free will entered into a binding contract with Satan. Remember the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant? This has been extended to the many and it is found that 42 months is required, with Satan in control, for those left on earth to decide to leave the Atonement Covenant and confirm a binding covenant of worship to Satan. The mark is literal and physical and permanent. Just like the choice to remove one's head is binding, literal, physical, and permanent. It is literally the only way to leave the Adamic Covenant of death in this physical body, to remain in the Lamb's book of life, and to be resurrected at the start of the Millennium. This resurrection is physical and permanent. The Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire given to those who take the mark and choose Satan, has been avoided by the choice to remove one's head. This is not a second chance salvation. This is only because the Atonement Covenant was confirmed and some had not yet made the choice to accept the Atonement given by God on the Cross to all of humanity.

If there is only determinism, Satan would never be given control. The wrath of God in the winepress of chapter 14 would end the week of the 7th Trumpet, and the Atonement Covenant would never be confirmed with the many. The Atonement Covenant would be called complete as in Revelation 11:15. No 42 month extension, no AoD, no FP, no 7 vials, and definitely no Armageddon. 11:15 already declared the end of Daniel's 70th week. The winepress of God's wrath would end the celebration. That would be the end of the determined time for Adam's punishment. Time and space are determined and finite. How humans act in life is not based on determinism. The book of Job refutes determinism and shows that humanity has free will. Revelation is the worse case scenario. It is not the determined scenario. God nor Satan can coerce any one to choose God nor reject God. God did not predetermine who would remain in the book of life. God predestined that He would be the Lamb to die on the Cross at the right time in creation.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

This is not proof of determinism. Paul declares the reason for the process in that last verse. If God be for us, who can be against us? Even if Satan is given control for 42 months, many are still able to prove, that if God be for us, even Satan does not have the ability to take away the free will to choose God. God did not predetermine that many had to be beheaded. In fact the church could prevent this time if they do choose to give up their own desires. God does not force even Christians to do His Will. If determinism is true, God would force all to come to repentance.

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

God gave this promise, but God does not force even His own to go against their desires. He also reserves the right to not give us our desires. One of the reasons Satan gave about Job was that Job only worshipped God because his desires were met and God blessed Job. We see that is patently false.

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

Paul was not declaring that God only chose a limited amount of humans. He was showing the length and detail of what happens to those who of their own free will choose God. God made that choice possible and was always on man's side. With the same devotion He shows to those who choose Him, God reserves the right to utterly make life miserable for those who reject God. That is why God can allow the sacrifice to cease and the AoD to take over for 42 months. To give Satan and God rejectors what they want and in doing so still offer a means of escape from desolation. However the church can still change the course of History. God is still not willing than any should perish, but that all come to repentance. The church still retains that power over Satan. God can still change hearts to make the choice to choose God more desirable. And still many by the end of the week still die in the winepress of God's wrath.

 

[Marilyn C]

It walks like the rapture and talks like the rapture, in that it involves the Lord appearing in the clouds, the trumpet, and gathering the elect.
But pretribulationists reject this passage for two reasons that are both fallacies.
1. Because they have it in their mind that the rapture MUST take place before the "7 year tribulation" (a phrase NEVER used in the bible. Pay attention to where Jesus says the Great Tribulations begin and it's only after the midpoint, NOT 7 years), they immediately discard any scripture that suggests otherwise. That's eisegesis, that's coming into the Word of God thinking you already know what it says rather than letting the Word of God speak to you.
2. They claim that the chapter is "for the unbelieving Jews not the Church", yet they're perfectly comfortable using the chapter ASIDE from these verses as signs pointing to the rapture. Not to mention, Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Jews here He was talking to 4 apostles that would be the seeds of the Church. This was for believers, not unbelievers.

Finally stop claiming this is about the second coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19. This is not that. There's no horse, and He's gathering the elect, that is, believers like the Apostles, not unbelievers. The only thing being gathered at Armageddon is unbelievers doomed to be destroyed. The parousia is an enduring presence with multiple events taking place during it. It begins at the rapture, and never ends, it is ALL the second coming.
Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6:12-17. NOT Revelation 19.
May it open your eyes.

Hi Jamdoc,

The Body of Christ was NEVER revealed before the Lord, the Head, revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

The Body of Christ, built and matured will be gone to its eternal setting in glory before the events of Matt. 24.

Matt. 24 refers to Israel and the Nations.

Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

So here's another detail that I find mindblowing. that also gives a timing clue.

Revelation 11:19

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15:5

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened;

The trumpets go straight into the bowls.
Chapters 12-14 are not Chronological (Chapter 14 parallels with chapter 6:12-17, Chapter 13 parallels with Chapter 6:9-11) it goes straight from the back half of 11, to the back half of chapter 15. 11:19 also refers to the 7th bowl judgement as well. The same lightning and voices and hail and earthquake.

 

[Marilyn C]

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person. There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.


Vision 1. CHRIST - Head of the Body. (Rev. 1 – 3)

This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.

`in His right hand He held 7 stars.`




Vision 2. CHRIST - HEIR. (Rev. 4 – 7)


This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.

`in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`




Vision 3. CHRIST - MEDIATOR. (Rev. 8 – 13)


This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.

`in His hand is a sacred censor.`



Vision 4. CHRIST - JUDGE. (Rev. 14 – 22)


This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.

`in His hand is a sharp sickle.`



To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are over three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.


This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centered on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.


Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

The Body of Christ was NEVER revealed before the Lord, the Head, revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

The Body of Christ, built and matured will be gone to its eternal setting in glory before the events of Matt. 24.

Matt. 24 refers to Israel and the Nations.

Marilyn.

Incorrect. The language of Matthew 24 (and parallels in Mark and Luke) are inclusive, speaking to His disciples, not unbelievers.
It's not "when they" (unbelieving Israel) see the Abomination of Desolation.. it's when YOU see the Abomination of Desolation. The audience is His disciples.
The resurrection has been revealed even as far back as Isaiah and Job, if not earlier.
The Mystery Paul was talking about was not the rapture, but the transformation from mortal to immortal bodies, it is a necessary part of the rapture, but it is not the rapture itself. 1 Thessalonians 4 puts the resurrection happening just before the rapture. But the rapture itself was also spoken of in the Gospels, in the Gospel of John chapter 14:1-3, and in the Olivet Discourse. Matthew 24:31, and Mark 13:27.
The one detail Paul had revealed to him that was brand new, was that our bodies would change in the process without dying.

It is rather amusing that pretribulationalists will deny Matthew 24:31 is the rapture, and claim that the rapture was not revealed until Paul taught about it.. but will then go back to the Gospel of John and point out how John 14:1-3 IS referring to the rapture.
That is cherrypicking.

 

[Marilyn C]

Incorrect. The language of Matthew 24 (and parallels in Mark and Luke) are inclusive, speaking to His disciples, not unbelievers.
It's not "when they" (unbelieving Israel) see the Abomination of Desolation.. it's when YOU see the Abomination of Desolation. The audience is His disciples.
The resurrection has been revealed even as far back as Isaiah and Job, if not earlier.
The Mystery Paul was talking about was not the rapture, but the transformation from mortal to immortal bodies, it is a necessary part of the rapture, but it is not the rapture itself. 1 Thessalonians 4 puts the resurrection happening just before the rapture. But the rapture itself was also spoken of in the Gospels, in the Gospel of John chapter 14:1-3, and in the Olivet Discourse. Matthew 24:31, and Mark 13:27.
The one detail Paul had revealed to him that was brand new, was that our bodies would change in the process without dying.

It is rather amusing that pretribulationalists will deny Matthew 24:31 is the rapture, and claim that the rapture was not revealed until Paul taught about it.. but will then go back to the Gospel of John and point out how John 14:1-3 IS referring to the rapture.
That is cherrypicking.

Hi Jamdoc,

His 12 disciples never knew about the revelation of the Body of Christ. The Lord is talking to disciples of Israel.

And Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, how it would be built and matured and then taken to its eternal setting in glory - raptured.

Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

His 12 disciples never knew about the revelation of the Body of Christ. The Lord is talking to disciples of Israel.

And Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, how it would be built and matured and then taken to its eternal setting in glory - raptured.

Marilyn.

again, the rapture was hinted at even in the gospels. Pretribulationalists will use John 14:1-3 to back up their position.
The only reason they deny Matthew 24:31, is because it gives timing that does not fit their position.
It's cherrypicking and eisegesis.
frankly you should be glad that Paul wasn't teaching radically different things than what was already in the old testament and gospels. If a teacher claims to have direct revelation from God and you cannot find his doctrine in the bible? You're supposed to throw it out. Whatever they teach needs to be consistent with what is already revealed. There can be new details, as long as those details don't contradict what was already revealed.
But a completely new doctrine? The Bereans wouldn't have listened to him, they'd have taken him out in the street and stoned him.
They searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught was true.

 

[Marilyn C]

again, the rapture was hinted at even in the gospels. Pretribulationalists will use John 14:1-3 to back up their position.
The only reason they deny Matthew 24:31, is because it gives timing that does not fit their position.
It's cherrypicking and eisegesis.
frankly you should be glad that Paul wasn't teaching radically different things than what was already in the old testament and gospels. If a teacher claims to have direct revelation from God and you cannot find his doctrine in the bible? You're supposed to throw it out. Whatever they teach needs to be consistent with what is already revealed. There can be new details, as long as those details don't contradict what was already revealed.
But a completely new doctrine? The Bereans wouldn't have listened to him, they'd have taken him out in the street and stoned him.
They searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught was true.

Hi Jamdoc,

`However when He the Spirit of truth has come he will guide you into ALL truth....` (John 16: 13)

`the hidden wisdom of God, which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which NONE OF THE RULERS OF THIS AGE KNEW; for they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory.` (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8)

The Gentiles coming into God`s purposes was known, however the detail of them and the Jews becoming a new man, the Body of Christ with the Lord as its Head, was definitely NOT known.
And thus all the details of the building, maturing and gathering and being raptured was NOT known.

Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

`However when He the Spirit of truth has come he will guide you into ALL truth....` (John 16: 13)

`the hidden wisdom of God, which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which NONE OF THE RULERS OF THIS AGE KNEW; for they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory.` (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8)

The Gentiles coming into God`s purposes was known, however the detail of them and the Jews becoming a new man, the Body of Christ with the Lord as its Head, was definitely NOT known.
And thus all the details of the building, maturing and gathering and being raptured was NOT known.

Marilyn.

Not every detail, but the groundwork was laid.
and enough detail was given.
I can point at the resurrection/rapture (which Paul gives the new detail that they happen at around the same time, and are connected with the second coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4) in Isaiah 26, Job 19, Daniel 12, John 14, Matthew 24.. all before any of Paul's epistles. Paul's epistles help identify them and their timing. Paul's epistles help identify how it's carried out, that the dead in Christ rise first, and that those who are alive will have their bodies changed in the twinkling of an eye.
The bible works in progressive revelation, extra details being added onto what's already revealed. Just like Messianic prophecy went all the way back to Genesis 3.
Not every detail was in Genesis 3. But a few details were that you can identify it AS a messianic prophecy.
Now about the Body of Christ.
People may adhere to hard dispensationalism, but God does not. The same thing that saves you and I, saved the Old Testament saints. Paul was even clear about that in Romans 4 and Hebrews 11. It's not a different dispensation where works of the law saved in group of people and grace by faith saved in another group. It's always been grace by faith.
When Jesus died, He went to part of Hades where the Old Covenant saints were and preached to them. That is how they got saved.
1 Peter 3:18-19
So when it comes to the Land promises, and the ceremonial laws, the Jews are different. The laws are there to be a sign of separation until the Lord, and in return the Lord would give them the land. New covenant we don't have the land inheritance nor the ceremonial laws.
But salvation works the same way for both covenants.
Because of that.. even the OT saints are still the body of Christ. It is not just gentile believers it is also Jewish believers.
We are ALL in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28.
Hard dispensationalism ends up creating second and third class citizens of heaven. It's a little absurd.

 

[Marilyn C]

Not every detail, but the groundwork was laid.
and enough detail was given.
I can point at the resurrection/rapture (which Paul gives the new detail that they happen at around the same time, and are connected with the second coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4) in Isaiah 26, Job 19, Daniel 12, John 14, Matthew 24.. all before any of Paul's epistles. Paul's epistles help identify them and their timing. Paul's epistles help identify how it's carried out, that the dead in Christ rise first, and that those who are alive will have their bodies changed in the twinkling of an eye.
The bible works in progressive revelation, extra details being added onto what's already revealed. Just like Messianic prophecy went all the way back to Genesis 3.
Not every detail was in Genesis 3. But a few details were that you can identify it AS a messianic prophecy.
Now about the Body of Christ.
People may adhere to hard dispensationalism, but God does not. The same thing that saves you and I, saved the Old Testament saints. Paul was even clear about that in Romans 4 and Hebrews 11. It's not a different dispensation where works of the law saved in group of people and grace by faith saved in another group. It's always been grace by faith.
When Jesus died, He went to part of Hades where the Old Covenant saints were and preached to them. That is how they got saved.
1 Peter 3:18-19
So when it comes to the Land promises, and the ceremonial laws, the Jews are different. The laws are there to be a sign of separation until the Lord, and in return the Lord would give them the land. New covenant we don't have the land inheritance nor the ceremonial laws.
But salvation works the same way for both covenants.
Because of that.. even the OT saints are still the body of Christ. It is not just gentile believers it is also Jewish believers.
We are ALL in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28.
Hard dispensationalism ends up creating second and third class citizens of heaven. It's a little absurd.

Hi Jamdoc,

First I agree that everyone is saved because of Christ and His sacrifice. Then I looked up all your good scriptures and they do speak about resurrection from the dead, (except Matt. 24). However the details, (as you say too) are more in the NT.

As I`m not a `hard dispensationalist,` we can forgo that conversation.

Now you are saying everyone will be in the Body of Christ. That means that we all have the same inheritance, does it not? So where do you see the Body of Christ will be in all of God`a great kingdom? (with scriptures, please.)

Marilyn.