Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

[Jamdoc]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It walks like the rapture and talks like the rapture, in that it involves the Lord appearing in the clouds, the trumpet, and gathering the elect.
But pretribulationists reject this passage for two reasons that are both fallacies.
1. Because they have it in their mind that the rapture MUST take place before the "7 year tribulation" (a phrase NEVER used in the bible. Pay attention to where Jesus says the Great Tribulations begin and it's only after the midpoint, NOT 7 years), they immediately discard any scripture that suggests otherwise. That's eisegesis, that's coming into the Word of God thinking you already know what it says rather than letting the Word of God speak to you.
2. They claim that the chapter is "for the unbelieving Jews not the Church", yet they're perfectly comfortable using the chapter ASIDE from these verses as signs pointing to the rapture. Not to mention, Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Jews here He was talking to 4 apostles that would be the seeds of the Church. This was for believers, not unbelievers.

Finally stop claiming this is about the second coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19. This is not that. There's no horse, and He's gathering the elect, that is, believers like the Apostles, not unbelievers. The only thing being gathered at Armageddon is unbelievers doomed to be destroyed. The parousia is an enduring presence with multiple events taking place during it. It begins at the rapture, and never ends, it is ALL the second coming.
Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6:12-17. NOT Revelation 19.
May it open your eyes.

 

[Hammster]

It’s not about the rapture. It’s about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

 

[Jamdoc]

It’s not about the rapture. It’s about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

See the futurist only tag.

 

[DavidPT]

See the futurist only tag.

You beat me to it. I was getting ready to ask exactly how that proposed position fits a Futurist Only position?

 

[DavidPT]

It walks like the rapture and talks like the rapture, in that it involves the Lord appearing in the clouds, the trumpet, and gathering the elect.
But pretribulationists reject this passage for two reasons that are both fallacies.
1. Because they have it in their mind that the rapture MUST take place before the "7 year tribulation" (a phrase NEVER used in the bible. Pay attention to where Jesus says the Great Tribulations begin and it's only after the midpoint, NOT 7 years), they immediately discard any scripture that suggests otherwise. That's exegesis, that's coming into the Word of God thinking you already know what it says rather than letting the Word of God speak to you.
2. They claim that the chapter is "for the unbelieving Jews not the Church", yet they're perfectly comfortable using the chapter ASIDE from these verses as signs pointing to the rapture. Not to mention, Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Jews here He was talking to 4 apostles that would be the seeds of the Church. This was for believers, not unbelievers.

Finally stop claiming this is about the second coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19. This is not that. There's no horse, and He's gathering the elect, that is, believers like the Apostles, not unbelievers. The only thing being gathered at Armageddon is unbelievers doomed to be destroyed. The parousia is an enduring presence with multiple events taking place during it. It begins at the rapture, and never ends, it is ALL the second coming.
Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6:12-17. NOT Revelation 19.
May it open your eyes.

Unless I misunderstood you somewhere along the way, I would say I pretty much agree with everything you submitted in the OP except for maybe about Revelation 19. You are arguing for post trib, right? You are arguing against pretrib, right? If no to both of those, then I somehow misunderstood you big time.

IMO the rapture is hidden in Revelation 19, but it's there. The rapture has to take place after heaven is opened and that Christ is seen leaving, and before He and His armies confront the beast and it's armies, obviously.

Pretribbers argue that the ones seen already with Christ before heaven is opened, this is meaning the raptured church that was raptured before the GT began. I would instead argue that it's meaning the dead in Christ that rise first. That's the ones 1 Thessalonians 4 indicates God will bring with Him when He comes, the dead in Christ, not the raptured church. Yet, the raptured church He does bring with Him as well, but not initially, but once the church meets Him in the air after Christ has already left heaven. I basically see the armies with Christ in Revelation 19 consisting of the dead in Christ, the raptured church, and probably some angels as well.

 

[d taylor]

_
The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs
The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Hammster]

See the futurist only tag.

My apologies.

 

[Jamdoc]

Unless I misunderstood you somewhere along the way, I would say I pretty much agree with everything you submitted in the OP except for maybe about Revelation 19. You are arguing for post trib, right? You are arguing against pretrib, right? If no to both of those, then I somehow misunderstood you big time.

IMO the rapture is hidden in Revelation 19, but it's there. The rapture has to take place after heaven is opened and that Christ is seen leaving, and before He and His armies confront the beast and it's armies, obviously.

Pretribbers argue that the ones seen already with Christ before heaven is opened, this is meaning the raptured church that was raptured before the GT began. I would instead argue that it's meaning the dead in Christ that rise first. That's the ones 1 Thessalonians 4 indicates God will bring with Him when He comes, the dead in Christ, not the raptured church. Yet, the raptured church He does bring with Him as well, but not initially, but once the church meets Him in the air after Christ has already left heaven. I basically see the armies with Christ in Revelation 19 consisting of the dead in Christ, the raptured church, and probably some angels as well.

Not post trib, pre wrath.
Matthew 24 has 0 to do with Revelation 19, but Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 parallel each other pretty much exactly. The only thing missing is the Gathering of the Elect in Revelation 6, but in Revelation 7 you see the results of it.
A second view of the same event is in Revelation 14:14-20. The first reaping is done by Jesus and they are not put through the wrath of God. The second reaping is done by an angel and those are the "clusters of the vine of the earth" that is, the unbelieving earth dwellers, they're put through the wrath of God.
Revelation 15 again shows the results of the rapture

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Most people at least (some post trib think this scene takes place on earth) agree that this shows saints in heaven who went through the tribulations (that is the persecution by men/wrath of Satan, not the wrath of God)
Rememeber that chapters did not exist when this was written. So it follows right after the appearing of our Lord in the clouds in Revelation 14:14.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

We have 2 witnesses of the same timing of tribulation, rapture, wrath of God.

it is SO clear that I cannot see any other view.

But this parallel is just uncanny, and I think even Paul was evoking the Olivet Discourse in his epistles to the Thessalonians.

 

[DavidPT]

Not post trib, pre wrath.

Pretrib belongs before the GT. Post trib belongs after the GT. Where does Prewrath belong? Does it not belong after the trib as well?

If we use the following in Matthew 24 as a template for some of these events, here's what can be deduced, at least IMO anyway.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The trib of those days obviously meaning the GT. Pretrib is meaning before the trib of those days, obviously. Any view that has the rapture taking place before the trib of those days begin, are Pretrib. I don't care what they call their view, they are still Pretrib.

What some fail to see in the above verses, the coming in verse 30 doesn't immediately follow the trib of those days, yet it does follow those days, but not until all of the following happens first----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

As to Prewrath, where in the chronology of these events in verses 29-31 do you see the Prewrath rapture taking place?

As to the dead in Christ rising first, followed by the rapture, I see that happening between here----and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other---and here.

 

[Jamdoc]

Pretrib belongs before the GT. Post trib belongs after the GT. Where does Prewrath belong? Does it not belong after the trib as well?

If we use the following in Matthew 24 as a template for some of these events, here's what can be deduced, at least IMO anyway.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The trib of those days obviously meaning the GT. Pretrib is meaning before the trib of those days, obviously. Any view that has the rapture taking place before the trib of those days begin, are Pretrib. I don't care what they call their view, they are still Pretrib.

What some fail to see in the above verses, the coming in verse 30 doesn't immediately follow the trib of those days, yet it does follow those days, but not until all of the following happens first----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

As to Prewrath, where in the chronology of these events in verses 29-31 do you see the Prewrath rapture taking place?

As to the dead in Christ rising first, followed by the rapture, I see that happening between here----and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other---and here.

Okay so..
Pretrib, means before the first seal, because they see everything as being the wrath of God and we're not appointed to wrath. Pre 70th week is what it really means, they usually view the entire book of Revelation as being in chronological order.

Posttrib means after at least the 7th trumpet, or after the 7th bowl, and it can vary as to whether they believe the book of Revelation is chronological ordered or not. Post trib amillennialists for instance, will see the book as not being written in chronological order, and see the rapture as taking place after the 7th trumpet AND after the 7th bowl, because they see that as the same event. Post trib also sees the entire 70th week as the wrath of God from first seal to last bowl.

Pre-wrath first and foremost, makes some important distinctions.
1. The entire 70th week is not the Great Tribulations. This comes from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse primarily Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the Great Tribulations start AFTER the Abomination of Desolation that happens at the mid point. Instantly throws out the "7 year tribulations" trope.
2. The 70th week is also not the wrath of God. We get this because in Revelation 6:9-11 you have the martyred saints asking how long it will be before God STARTS His wrath. That means, the first 5 seals, are not the wrath of God, and Revelation 6:17 is the most clear demarcation of the beginning of the wrath of God. Which we see as this is when Jesus appears in the clouds (the sun and moon went Dark, everyone will see Jesus in the clouds as He'll be the only light in the sky)
So what we see is that Christians will go through Tribulation, but not the supernatural wrath of God. The first 5 seals are all acts of men, principally, acts by the Antichrist.

Importantly also to pre wrath, is understanding that the book of Revelation is NOT in Chronological order but is 2 parallel narratives, from Revelation 4-11 and Revelation 12-20

If you want to use a more convenient name, some people refer to it as "6th seal rapture".
It is important to note that timing on the 6th seal is not given, it is "sometime" after the midpoint, it is not traditional Mid Tribulation view. So you still don't know the day or hour.

 

[DavidPT]

1. The entire 70th week is not the Great Tribulations. This comes from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse primarily Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the Great Tribulations start AFTER the Abomination of Desolation that happens at the mid point. Instantly throws out the "7 year tribulations" trope.

I tend to agree.

2. The 70th week is also not the wrath of God. We get this because in Revelation 6:9-11 you have the martyred saints asking how long it will be before God STARTS His wrath. That means, the first 5 seals, are not the wrath of God, and Revelation 6:17 is the most clear demarcation of the beginning of the wrath of God. Which we see as this is when Jesus appears in the clouds (the sun and moon went Dark, everyone will see Jesus in the clouds as He'll be the only light in the sky)
So what we see is that Christians will go through Tribulation, but not the supernatural wrath of God. The first 5 seals are all acts of men, principally, acts by the Antichrist.

I tend to agree here as well.

If you want to use a more convenient name, some people refer to it as "6th seal rapture".
It is important to note that timing on the 6th seal is not given, it is "sometime" after the midpoint, it is not traditional Mid Tribulation view. So you still don't know the day or hour.

This is where we might not be entirely on the same page after all, even though I initially indicated I tended to agree with 1 and 2 above. IMO, there is no such thing as mid trib to begin with, the reason being, midtrib is based on the faulty logic that the trib is 7 years in length. Scripture shows that it is only half of that.

I agree the 70th week is future and that it consists of 7 years. But only the final half of those 7 years are meaning the GT. Any rapture around midpoint of the 70th week would still be Pretrib, since that would mean that the rapture precedes the GT, the same thing Pretrib believes.There can be no rapture prior to the beginning of the 70th week, nor around the middle of the 70th week. Any rapture is meaning at the end of/or after the 70th week.

 

[Jamdoc]

I tend to agree.



I tend to agree here as well.



This is where we might not be entirely on the same page after all, even though I initially indicated I tended to agree with 1 and 2 above. IMO, there is no such thing as mid trib to begin with, the reason being, midtrib is based on the faulty logic that the trib is 7 years in length. Scripture shows that it is only half of that.

I agree the 70th week is future and that it consists of 7 years. But only the final half of those 7 years are meaning the GT. Any rapture around midpoint of the 70th week would still be Pretrib, since that would mean that the rapture precedes the GT, the same thing Pretrib believes.There can be no rapture prior to the beginning of the 70th week, nor around the middle of the 70th week. Any rapture is meaning at the end of/or after the 70th week.

I think we disagree less than you think we do.

I think I just miscommunicated sorry about that.

Okay so the 3 traditional viewpoints on rapture timing (Pre/Mid/Post) all tend to associate the entire 70th week as "the 7 Year Tribulation" It's one of their failings.
What they really mean is Pre/Mid/Post 70th week with pre being before the 70th week, mid being at the midpoint of the 70th week (so also pre tribulation if we use Jesus' definitions of Great Tribulations) and Post is at the end of the 70th week.

Because you and I agree that the entire 70th week is not the tribulations they only start AFTER the midpoint, you might even be Pre-wrath and not even know it.
Pre wrath is not a pre-tribulation point in any definition of "the Tribulations" however. Pre wrath does hold that Christians will endure the persecution of the Great Tribulations, they will be hunted down by the Antichrist, they will have to refuse the mark, and many will be made martyrs, (the first 5 seals)
Most technically pre wrath can be seen as "Post trib, Pre wrath" because of the distinction made between Tribulations, which is human acts, and the Wrath of God (the trumpets and bowls). That separation is demonstrated at the 6th seal, so... "6th seal rapture" could be most convenient since that's a clear placing in the book of revelation.

Anyway, Matthew 24 being understood to have a rapture reference is core to both Pre Wrath, and Post Trib positions, pre trib will say "that's about the second coming not about the rapture" and "Matthew 24 is for the jews not the church!" which is what I'm shooting down in my OP, that Matthew 24 is for believers including the Church (I lump in believers rather than just saying "the Church" because there's going to be believers who aren't members of any church or denomination, or they might be Messianic Jews). I believe because Matthew 24 is addressed to disciples who would establish Churches that it is relevant for "the Church" and that nobody should write off part of scripture just because it doesn't agree with a doctrine that they had before they read it.

Post Trib of course.. will say that the 2nd coming and rapture are the same thing, that they just meet Jesus in the air and come right back down for Armageddon..

But Revelation 7 and 15 with the Saints in heaven disagrees with that position too. The saints that have bodies that can wear clothes and hold harps.

 

[Timtofly]

The trib of those days obviously meaning the GT. Pretrib is meaning before the trib of those days, obviously. Any view that has the rapture taking place before the trib of those days begin, are Pretrib. I don't care what they call their view, they are still Pretrib.

If by GT you mean the last 1991 years.

There is tribulation in the first 4 Seals. How much is debatable. 25% of humanity dead in a war, famine, plague (covid), and wild animals in an unprecedented attack of nature is not a small thing.

 

[Jamdoc]

If by GT you mean the last 1991 years.

There is tribulation in the first 4 Seals. How much is debatable. 25% of humanity dead in a war, famine, plague (covid), and wild animals in an unprecedented attack of nature is not a small thing.

actually one of the interesting things I've thought about with the 4th seal is not that 1/4 of the people of the earth are killed, but 1/4th of the people of the earth will be the killers.
It's something considered in "Islamic Antichrist" theories because Muslims are about 1/4 of the world's population and their favorite execution method is beheading.

Either way though, Tribulation doesn't just mean 'bad thing happens' but rather when Jesus talks about tribulation He means persecution. So "the Great Tribulations" that begin after the midpoint can be understood in that light to focus on things like the Mark of the Beast, and martyring by beheading.

Something to consider is that at the time that Jesus comes back, is said to be like the days of Noah and Lot, which is business as usual (even if it's very sinful), with buying and selling and planting and harvesting and marrying and giving in marriage.
There won't be any weddings being planned if we're talking about a traditional post trib scenario, nobody's planning a wedding while 60 pound hailstones are falling from the sky.
That is actually one of the best arguments that pretrib even has, that Jesus will return during a state of normalcy which is definitely not DURING the wrath of God.

So the puzzle you have to work with is
1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days which challenges Pre Trib and Mid Trib
2. Like the days of Noah and Lot (people living like normal but in great sin), which challenges Post Trib

The only way to reconcile these two statements is to understand that "tribulation" is a specific meaning for religious persecution.
So while Christians and Jews are persecuted, Life has resumed a "new normal" for the rest of the world. They buy and sell with the mark of the beast, they get married they plant and harvest crops, all while turning over anyone who won't receive the mark to the authorities.

So either the 4th seal is a disastrous war but it ends and a relative peace is regained (meaning the first 4 seals could take place entirely before the 70th week.. the Antichrist's covenant could be a 7 year ceasefire or something) and a "new normal" is established, and when the full number of martyrs from this persecution happens Jesus returns for the rapture, as the wicked are marrying and giving in marriage and life is going on as normal. Then begins the wrath of God on those left over.

OR
the 4th seal is something along the lines of the Islamic Antichrist theory and Muslims are the 1/4 of the the earth DOING the killing for the 5th seal.

I could see either. But both require a "new normal" being established after the midpoint , for their to be great tribulations after the midpoint, and for it to be like the days of Lot.

 

[DavidPT]

If by GT you mean the last 1991 years.

There is tribulation in the first 4 Seals. How much is debatable. 25% of humanity dead in a war, famine, plague (covid), and wild animals in an unprecedented attack of nature is not a small thing.

If we consider Matthew 24, it tells us exactly when the beginning of the GT is meaning.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Did verse 15 already happen 1991 years ago? Preterists believe it did, but what about futurists? Do they also agree verse 15 already happened 1991 years ago? If it did begin 1991 years ago, it for sure didn't end soon after in that same century, the fact verse 30 has not been fulfilled yet.

The fact this is a Futurist Only thread, fortunately we don't have to get sidetracked with having to debate Preterists about any of these events.

Verse 21 says this---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. So, you think that describes every second of the past 1991 years?

 

[Jamdoc]

yeah we've definitely never encountered the Great Tribulations that Jesus talked about. We've had a lot of stuff worse than AD70, the Holocaust and Communist Purges left a pretty high watermark.

 

[Timtofly]

actually one of the interesting things I've thought about with the 4th seal is not that 1/4 of the people of the earth are killed, but 1/4th of the people of the earth will be the killers.
It's something considered in "Islamic Antichrist" theories because Muslims are about 1/4 of the world's population and their favorite execution method is beheading.

Either way though, Tribulation doesn't just mean 'bad thing happens' but rather when Jesus talks about tribulation He means persecution. So "the Great Tribulations" that begin after the midpoint can be understood in that light to focus on things like the Mark of the Beast, and martyring by beheading.

Something to consider is that at the time that Jesus comes back, is said to be like the days of Noah and Lot, which is business as usual (even if it's very sinful), with buying and selling and planting and harvesting and marrying and giving in marriage.
There won't be any weddings being planned if we're talking about a traditional post trib scenario, nobody's planning a wedding while 60 pound hailstones are falling from the sky.
That is actually one of the best arguments that pretrib even has, that Jesus will return during a state of normalcy which is definitely not DURING the wrath of God.

So the puzzle you have to work with is
1. Immediately after the tribulation of those days which challenges Pre Trib and Mid Trib
2. Like the days of Noah and Lot (people living like normal but in great sin), which challenges Post Trib

The only way to reconcile these two statements is to understand that "tribulation" is a specific meaning for religious persecution.
So while Christians and Jews are persecuted, Life has resumed a "new normal" for the rest of the world. They buy and sell with the mark of the beast, they get married they plant and harvest crops, all while turning over anyone who won't receive the mark to the authorities.

So either the 4th seal is a disastrous war but it ends and a relative peace is regained (meaning the first 4 seals could take place entirely before the 70th week.. the Antichrist's covenant could be a 7 year ceasefire or something) and a "new normal" is established, and when the full number of martyrs from this persecution happens Jesus returns for the rapture, as the wicked are marrying and giving in marriage and life is going on as normal. Then begins the wrath of God on those left over.

OR
the 4th seal is something along the lines of the Islamic Antichrist theory and Muslims are the 1/4 of the the earth DOING the killing for the 5th seal.

I could see either. But both require a "new normal" being established after the midpoint , for their to be great tribulations after the midpoint, and for it to be like the days of Lot.

The first four Seals are the tribulation of those days. Changing the chronology of Revelation is not the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse. The questions were answered by Jesus out of order.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This is the end of the world, but not the end of creation.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is the answer to the end of the world. But this is the history of the church. The church itself has an end before the actual end.

The next section can be said of both the end of the OT economy and the NT church. Many want to interpret as one or the other, but it is both:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Notice the parenthesis about future readers, more likely who have access to the full Bible and Word of God. The Romans in 70AD would be more brutal than the Babylonian captivity. For one we see looking back on history, the Romans were like the peace keepers, but with an iron rule. They would rather just kill all dissent, than incorporate a population like the 2 major kingdoms that came before them. After dealing with the Jews for almost 100 years, they finally got tired and attempted to literally wipe them off the map. So some of the unprecedented tribulation did occur in 70AD. Now when the future AoD is done by the FP and Satan, it will be entirely different. They will persecute the entire world, not just Jews, religions, and moral minded people. So the next set is both the end of life as Jesus' generation knew it, but can be applied to the last 42 months of life as Adam's flesh knows it, ie this current generation:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


This is the end of the answer to the "end of the world."

Now we get to the Second Coming part of the answer:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Here is where we are back to the description of the 4 Seals.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Instead of re-arranging Revelation to fit Matthew, one just needs to see how Jesus answered the questions in reverse order.

1. and of the end of the world?

2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming?

3. when shall these things be?


The last 42 months are given to Satan, the FP, and their image, an AC.

You cannot take parts of the last 42 months and insert them willy nilly into the 70th week.

Here is why no current eschatological view can work. Daniel's 70th week is only the life of the Lamb on earth. The first half was in the first century. The rest will be at the Second Coming. The remaining half covers the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus claims in the OD He brings the Trumpets and angel when He comes to finish the 70th week. Satan's 42 months is not part of the 70th week. Not the first half nor the second half. Nor are the 7 vials poured out at the end of those 42 months on Satan's worshippers part of any future 7 year period.

Satan's 42 months are incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. This is the meaning of Daniel 9:27

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He is Jesus, Lord of the vineyard. The 7th Trumpet is this week. The confirmation of the Covenant is the end of the world of Adam's punishment and flesh and blood, a sin nature.

Revelation 10:7

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Daniel 9:27

This is where the parable of the vinyard is applied. Matthew 21:40-41

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Not only does this apply to the first century. The vineyard has been in control of the church for 1991 years. The 7th Trumpet confirmation of the Covenant leads to a conclusion that Satan has 42 months control of the vineyard. The apostate church is then allowed harvested by Satan, just like the apostate leaders of the first century were judged by the apostles.

But the fact is the church is completed before and taken out of the vineyard before Satan is given control. Years before, because the only "church" are those 144k sealed between the 6th and 7th Seals. The Second Coming can only be the Lamb finishing in person the 70th week of Daniel to:

"upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Only Jesus Christ the Lamb of God can be the 70th week of Daniel. And Jesus said this time will be made shorter in length. So there will not be even a full 3.5 years for the Trumpets and Thunders. The opening of the 1st Seal started the 3.5 years. The longer the time of the Seals, the shorter the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

There is no set time for this Trib to be post, mid, or pre. Jesus said the tribulation will last the whole time the church is Steward of the vineyard. The Second Coming is post the church age. The Second Coming will bring the remainder of the 70th week with unprecedented tribulation while the harvest is being carried out by Jesus, the 144k, and the angels. Then and only then, Satan may get 42 months. That depends on how apostate the church is. Is forcing a view about an AC that is not found naturally in Scripture part of the Apostasy? Jesus said not to look for but warn against. If we are taught to look for an AC that will persecute us, is that looking for a "Christ" contrary to the command? The AoD can only happen if Satan is allowed to perform it. Satan is only allowed to perform it based on the failure of the church. This seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy, and the church is preaching that if we are not ready to be persecuted by something that is impossible, it will happen. Why not focus on the golden harvest, and totally prevent the 42 months from being a reality?

 

[DavidPT]

But Revelation 7 and 15 with the Saints in heaven disagrees with that position too. The saints that have bodies that can wear clothes and hold harps.

Let me ask you this then. These in Revelation 7 that come out of great tribulation, how are they coming out of it per your view? By physically dying during great tribulation, or by being raptured while still alive?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believed Luke 17 could refer to a rapture or to wilderness but it is not a fact because the saying in Luke 17:37
where the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together is also used in reference to the second coming Matthew 24:28

 

[DavidPT]

I believed Luke 17 could refer to a rapture or to wilderness but it is not a fact because the saying in Luke 17:37
where the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together is also used in reference to the second coming Matthew 24:28

Something I hadn't noticed until just now, but when comparing Matthew 24:28 with Luke 17:37, two different Greek words are used per the following. I'm not sure what the significance of this is, if any at all?

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase(ptoma) is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body(soma) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.