Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

First I agree that everyone is saved because of Christ and His sacrifice. Then I looked up all your good scriptures and they do speak about resurrection from the dead, (except Matt. 24). However the details, (as you say too) are more in the NT.

As I`m not a `hard dispensationalist,` we can forgo that conversation.

Now you are saying everyone will be in the Body of Christ. That means that we all have the same inheritance, does it not? So where do you see the Body of Christ will be in all of God`a great kingdom? (with scriptures, please.)

Marilyn.

You'll have to explain what you're meaning when you're asking "where do you see the Body of Christ will be?"
We'll be on a new Earth (Isaiah 65, 2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21-22). What more do you mean?

 

[Marilyn C]

You'll have to explain what you're meaning when you're asking "where do you see the Body of Christ will be?"
We'll be on a new Earth (Isaiah 65, 2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21-22). What more do you mean?

Hi Jamdoc,

How about `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)



Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

How about `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)



Marilyn.

Oh, well, Revelation 21 and 22 teach that heaven descends to the new Earth.
so the current intermediate state heaven is not our eternal home, our eternal home is on the New Earth, but, God will dwell among us, making it also heaven, because heaven is where God dwells.
as far as the current heaven goes, we're there if we die waiting for our resurrection bodies, and we will be raptured there for a period of time during God's wrath.
Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 15:2-4 show this, following the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:29-31) happening in Revelation 6:12-17
I believe Revelation 7 shows the results of the rapture.
a different view of the event is shown in Revelation 14:14-20, and the passage in Revelation 15:2-4 shows the results, again.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh, well, Revelation 21 and 22 teach that heaven descends to the new Earth.
so the current intermediate state heaven is not our eternal home, our eternal home is on the New Earth, but, God will dwell among us, making it also heaven, because heaven is where God dwells.
as far as the current heaven goes, we're there if we die waiting for our resurrection bodies, and we will be raptured there for a period of time during God's wrath.
Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 15:2-4 show this, following the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:29-31) happening in Revelation 6:12-17
I believe Revelation 7 shows the results of the rapture.
a different view of the event is shown in Revelation 14:14-20, and the passage in Revelation 15:2-4 shows the results, again.

Hi Jamdoc,

We need to read a bit closer -

`Then, I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.` (Rev. 21: 2)

The city comes down, not heaven coming down.

There are NO scriptures that say our inheritance is the new earth. And your scriptures refer to `nations,` and 144,000 Jews. We, the Body of Christ are called OUT of Israel and called out of the nations.

Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc,

We need to read a bit closer -

`Then, I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.` (Rev. 21: 2)

The city comes down, not heaven coming down.

There are NO scriptures that say our inheritance is the new earth. And your scriptures refer to `nations,` and 144,000 Jews. We, the Body of Christ are called OUT of Israel and called out of the nations.

Marilyn.

God dwells on the new earth, that makes it heaven.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi Jamdoc,

We need to read a bit closer -

`Then, I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD.` (Rev. 21: 2)

The city comes down, not heaven coming down.

There are NO scriptures that say our inheritance is the new earth. And your scriptures refer to `nations,` and 144,000 Jews. We, the Body of Christ are called OUT of Israel and called out of the nations.

Marilyn.

But there are Scriptures that tell us these things.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Verse 3 clearly tells us---that where I am, there ye may be also.


Where will Jesus be if not in the city that comes down out of heaven from God?


Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



Notice what the text says---Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them. If heaven were meant the text would at least be saying and they will dwell with Him.


Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

This still meaning the same city that comes down from God out of heaven, and that it obviously means that if it comes down from heaven it doesn't remain in heaven. Plus, how does it make sense that the throne of God and of the Lamb are in the city, yet Jesus is not even in the city but remains in heaven instead? Plus, how does it make sense that we will be dwelling in heaven without Jesus being there as well since He is obviously going to be dwelling in the city instead?

Getting back to John 14:3---that where I am, there ye may be also---and if that is meaning heaven rather than the new Jerusalem, then someone's interpretation is not quite adding up, thus contradicting clear Scriptures.

 

[Jamdoc]

I can't even begin to fathom why someone would want to dwell eternally in Heaven while Jesus is on Earth.
Isn't the point to be wherever Jesus is?
If that was really the case that Christians would be in heaven and not on the new earth while Jesus was on the new earth, I wouldn't want to be Christian anymore, and I'd be wondering how do I spend eternity on the new Earth with Jesus.

 

[Marilyn C]

God dwells on the new earth, that makes it heaven.

Hi Jamdoc,

Now we know that God is omnipresent, meaning everywhere present. He `dwells` in all of His great kingdom. However - `Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

Yes it will be glorious in what ever part of the new heavens and new earth we will be. However it is amazing that the Lord has said - `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne,` (Rev. 3: 21) And that throne is in the highest heaven.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

But there are Scriptures that tell us these things.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Verse 3 clearly tells us---that where I am, there ye may be also.


Where will Jesus be if not in the city that comes down out of heaven from God?


Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



Notice what the text says---Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them. If heaven were meant the text would at least be saying and they will dwell with Him.


Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

This still meaning the same city that comes down from God out of heaven, and that it obviously means that if it comes down from heaven it doesn't remain in heaven. Plus, how does it make sense that the throne of God and of the Lamb are in the city, yet Jesus is not even in the city but remains in heaven instead? Plus, how does it make sense that we will be dwelling in heaven without Jesus being there as well since He is obviously going to be dwelling in the city instead?

Getting back to John 14:3---that where I am, there ye may be also---and if that is meaning heaven rather than the new Jerusalem, then someone's interpretation is not quite adding up, thus contradicting clear Scriptures.

Hi David,

Jesus told the 12 disciples that and they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel from the new Jerusalem.
(Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

As I said to Jamdoc, God is spirit and omnipresent - everywhere present from the highest realm through to the earth, all in God`s great kingdom.

However His seat of power and authority is in the highest realm, the angelic realm, the third heaven. And it is from there that the city, the new Jerusalem comes down to near the earth, as the people on the earth walk by its light. (Rev. 21: 24)

Note however that Jesus is king on Mount Zion, (Ps. 2: 6) and that does NOT come down but is in the highest realm so that the Lord is far above all, and ruling over all. (Heb. 12: 22)

`Being with Jesus,` does NOT meaning following Him around all over the world and the universe. It means that we are in accord, in harmony, under His blessing, etc. In the spirit realm there is not the barriers we have of distance. Also the Lord is `with us` here on earth, now, yet He is at the father`s right hand n His throne.

Marilyn.

 

[Jamdoc]

Honestly, I just don't get the appeal of wanting to be in an incorporeal place forever.
God meant us to have bodies, and to have dominion over His physical creation.
I don't know why people would WANT to reject bodily resurrection and eternal life on a renewed perfect creation where death and sin are no more, where we rule and reign alongside Christ.
It makes me think that too much Greek platonic philosophy seeped into Church tradition, that Gnostic taint that preaches you have to escape the body and just be a spirit forever.
as much as the bible is a spiritual book, it is also a very earthy book.
God's original plan was us as bodies and living spirits having dominion on the Earth, the next age is .. a restoration of all things, including that plan. It disheartens me a bit when people have the idea of God abandoning that plan to just have us be floaty ghosts in ethereal ghost dimensions.

 

[DavidPT]

Hi Jamdoc,

How about `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)



Marilyn.

As to this that only seems to be relevant during the thousand years. But after the end comes, meaning after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all---why would that part in REvelation 3:21 continue on like that after the end comes?


I would think sitting with Him in His throne might involve some of the following.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Once the end comes and that God may be all in all, why would they continue to sit upon thrones in this manner?


So, IOW, Jesus sits with the Father in His throne for 2000 years. The overcomers sit with Jesus in His throne for 1000 years. Seems pretty fair to me. Then comes the end after that where God is then all in all.

 

[Marilyn C]

As to this that only seems to be relevant during the thousand years. But after the end comes, meaning after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all---why would that part in REvelation 3:21 continue on like that after the end comes?


I would think sitting with Him in His throne might involve some of the following.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Once the end comes and that God may be all in all, why would they continue to sit upon thrones in this manner?


So, IOW, Jesus sits with the Father in His throne for 2000 years. The overcomers sit with Jesus in His throne for 1000 years. Seems pretty fair to me. Then comes the end after that where God is then all in all.

Hi David,

`Sitting on thrones` means to have the power and authority, responsibility, not sitting on a seat for whatever time you imagine.

Note that the 12 apostles of the Lamb were given the thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel and we see the fulfillment of that in the New Jerusalem. (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

Once the end comes then the Son gives it all to God, and that means - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The whole Godhead is then overall.

The Body of Christ, (those looking to rule with the Lord) will be in the third heaven ruling under Christ. God desires that in every realm of His Great Kingdom that there should be rulership, all under Christ. God is not `watching us from a distance,` but desires that man in every realm should share in rulership under His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Marilyn.

 

[mikeforjesus]

If the catching away of the saints is not the rapture what is the purpose of it for Christian’s to meet the Lord in the air if that is the end of the world. For if people are not all immediately judged when they see it it would not be end of the world and does the scripture support that all will be punished on earth then or at second coming He will rule first even over children who never heard to destroy world afterwards who reject Christ during that time. For bible says there will be a millennium on earth to rule before a rebellion but in new earth no one dies.

 

[DavidPT]

For bible says there will be a millennium on earth to rule before a rebellion but in new earth no one dies.

As far as I can tell, it is initially in the new Jerusalem where there is no more death. The new Jerusalem is not meaning the entire earth. There will be nations outside of the new Jerusalem. The question is, is Revelation 21:1 meaning chronologically after Revelation 20:11-15? Maybe. Maybe not. I tend to think it might be the latter.