Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

[Kris Jordan]

This question from the OP really captured my attention.

If endless punishment is the wages of sin, did Jesus somehow pay this for those of us who are saved? I don't see how.

If a "lost" person was allowed to choose between paying the same price Jesus paid, or eternal torment, which do we suppose they would choose? Why are the so-called "lost" required to pay a price seemingly greater than their sin?

If the atonement was sufficient, why would something GREATER be required of those not covered by it? Is that just?

Hi Saint Steven,

We only receive Jesus' full payment for our sin (= have it applied to our "sin debt account") when we trust Him by faith for it. If we reject Him and what He did for us, we are left to pay for our own sin debt instead, which we can never do, even if given the time of eternity, because we never stop sinning or somehow become "perfect" after we die. So our sinful state continues as does our punishment - for eternity.

The Bible tells us that there is no other way to be saved except through faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. If we choose "ourselves" as the means for our forgiveness, we choose foolishly and reap eternal consequences for it.

However, the reason born-again believers do not suffer the wages of our own sin is because Jesus already paid it all for us and we received that full payment when we trusted Him by faith for it. Therefore our sins will never be counted against us. (Romans 4:7-8)

Does that help?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Kris:

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

1. How many are "made sinners" by one man's disobedience?

2. How many are "made righteous" by one?

3. How much is "many"?

4. Are both sides equal?

Many>>>>>>Many

What is an equation?

Equation=

n. The act or process of equating or of being equated.

n. The state of being equal.

n. A statement asserting the equality of two expressions, usually written as a linear array of symbols that are separated into left and right sides and joined by an equal sign.

 

[Oldmantook]

Hi Saint Steven,

We only receive Jesus' full payment for our sin (= have it applied to our "sin debt account") when we trust Him by faith for it. If we reject Him and what He did for us, we are left to pay for our own sin debt instead, which we can never do, even if given the time of eternity, because we never stop sinning or somehow become "perfect" after we die. So our sinful state continues as does our punishment - for eternity.

The Bible tells us that there is no other way to be saved except through faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. If we choose "ourselves" as the means for our forgiveness, we choose foolishly and reap eternal consequences for it.

However, the reason born-again believers do not suffer the wages of our own sin is because Jesus already paid it all for us and we received that full payment when we trusted Him by faith for it. Therefore our sins will never be counted against us. (Romans 4:7-8)

Does that help?

Your citation of Rom 4:7-8 is a often used passage that is employed to justify the so-called imputation of Christ's righteousness to us. That is why you claim that our sins will never be counted against us. If that were truly the case, then we could sin all we want, yet God does not count chronic sin against us because he only sees Jesus's righteousness in us. Does that sound right to you? Scripture never states that all sin is automatically forgiven. How can present and future sins be forgiven if they are not yet repented of? Rom 3:25 states that only our past sins were forgiven: 25 whom God set forth propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
I can't discuss this topic further here as that would be veering off-topic.

 

[FineLinen]

"Sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God.

But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin. If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift.

The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.
All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life - a life that goes on and on and on, world without end."

 

[Elixir]

Dear Elixir: I am going to start a link regarding the Lake of Fire in the future (hopefully). Again; this link is intended to determine what are the foundations for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master.

"Utter destruction"

Kolasis aionion -Matthew 25:46-

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

I will have to look into this further with Logos software, thanks for the tip !

 

[Hillsage]

Well the purpose of discipline (better than punishment) is to train a child to avoid wrong.

Punishment is to exact justice against the wrong doer. God disciplines His children (which is better translated train) while those who are not HIs children receive eternal punishment!

Once again we can argue how fair it seems or not seems or how just or unjust it may be, but understands this: God is sovereign and creator. He owns everything and nothing exists apart from His Will. He gets to make the rules! It matters not whether we like the rules or not! Whether we find them fair or not. They are His decrees and we must accept them!

We can believe you...or we can believe scripture and Paul where he was in agreement with the "poets" of Athens when Paul was presenting the gospel ;

ACT 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Seems as though Paul was talking about "TIMES" for those predestined to seek and "MIGHT FIND" God if it was 'their time'...or age to do so. Especially since ALL are His offspring. Or, should I say "His children" even though that term doesn't agree with 'your opinion' above.

 

[Oldmantook]

Dear Kris:

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

1. How many are "made sinners" by one man's disobedience?

2. How many are "made righteous" by one?

3. How much is "many"?

4. Are both sides equal?

Many>>>>>>Many

What is an equation?

Equation=

n. The act or process of equating or of being equated.

n. The state of being equal.

n. A statement asserting the equality of two expressions, usually written as a linear array of symbols that are separated into left and right sides and joined by an equal sign.

I've often wondered why "many" is employed instead of "all." My present thinking is that there are some who have no capacity for sin such as babies who die in infancy. They are the few that were not made sinners by one man's disobedience because they did not commit sin due to early death. The soul who sins shall die Ezekiel 18:20. Your thoughts?

 

[FineLinen]

I've often wondered why "many" is employed instead of "all." My present thinking is that there are some who have no capacity for sin such as babies who die in infancy. They are the few that were not made sinners by one man's disobedience because they did not commit sin due to early death. The soul who sins shall die Ezekiel 18:20. Your thoughts?

Dear Oldman: Whether the word is pas or polus the equation is totally equal on both sides. totally!

 

[Oldmantook]

Dear Oldman: Whether the word is pas or polus the equation is totally equal on both sides. totally!

I agree that it is equal but my question is since all are saved, why the use of many instead of all?

 

[Major1]

I'm afraid (figure of speech since courage is just fear....prayed up ) I don't know what "bump" means. A reference to 'the road' we ALL travel here, comes to mind. But I am a candidate for clarification if you would be so kind.

My bad, please excuse me. I had made a comment and thought better of it and instead of saying...……"Oooops" I used BUMP.

 

[Major1]

Another question from the OP that captured my attention.

Endless is pointless.

To what end (purpose) is endless punishment?

Endless has no purpose.

Is it not cruel to torture someone for no purpose? Blood sport. (sadistic cruelty)
We lock such individuals up. But with a purpose of rehabilitation.

Even humans have correctional facilities for prisons.
As unpleasant as they are, they have both a purpose and an end.
Would God be any less purposeful?

We have laws against cruel and unusual punishment, even against war crimes.
Would God inflict punishment worse than these? The mainstream church says, "Yes!"

That is because that is what the Bible says. Some people engage themselves in much wishful thinking about Hell. It has been said that the fires of Hell mean the torments of conscience. Others say that Hell is simply the grave.

Gal. 6:8 is either God's Word or it is a lie...……...
"The natural and inevitable consequence of sin is punishment. Proper punishment of a child does not derogate from the love of the parent. Sin condemns just as sure as fire burns, and God is justified in putting into effect the immortal law that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap”.

Matthew 5:22..........
"But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell."

Matt. 5:22...…..
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire".

If HELL is not a real place where the wicked lost are punished for an eternity, there will have to be a serious re-writing of the Bible.

 

[Oldmantook]

That is because that is what the Bible says. Some people engage themselves in much wishful thinking about Hell. It has been said that the fires of Hell mean the torments of conscience. Others say that Hell is simply the grave.

Gal. 6:8 is either God's Word or it is a lie...……...
"The natural and inevitable consequence of sin is punishment. Proper punishment of a child does not derogate from the love of the parent. Sin condemns just as sure as fire burns, and God is justified in putting into effect the immortal law that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap”.

Matthew 5:22..........
"But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell."

Matt. 5:22...…..
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire".

If HELL is not a real place where the wicked lost are punished for an eternity, there will have to be a serious re-writing of the Bible.

Hell/lake of fire is a real place; the pertinent question being discussed is whether the nature of that punishment/chastisement is eternal or for an age of time.

 

[FineLinen]

I agree that it is equal but my question is since all are saved, why the use of many instead of all?

Dear Oldman: I know not why the anointed author of these words uses polus instead of pas. He does not say all are saved, he says all made sinners are made righteous.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hell/lake of fire is a real place; the pertinent question being discussed is whether the nature of that punishment/chastisement is eternal or for an age of time.

I think instead that the OP in continual error again is saying that everyone is eventually saved, even if they do not repent in this life - as if, contrary to Yahuweh's Plan,
thay have a chance after death to repent or to be forgiven....
i.e. a false gospel from a false school of thought.

 

[FineLinen]

Hell/lake of fire is a real place; the pertinent question being discussed is whether the nature of that punishment/chastisement is eternal or for an age of time.

Dear Oldman: Hell is NOT the Lake of theion/theioo! The Lake is centered in the Aidios One, and as such is eternal. The punishment on the other hand is aionios reaching into an undisclosed horizon, but completing the purpose for which it is exercised as calibre of Abba's working.

 

[Oldmantook]

I think instead that the OP in continual error again is saying that everyone is eventually saved, even if they do not repent in this life - as if, contrary to Yahuweh's Plan,
thay have a chance after death to repent or to be forgiven....
i.e. a false gospel from a false school of thought.

I respect your opinion but disagree as I have studied this subject for years. If we know what Yahuweh's plan is then we have common ground and can proceed from there. Fortunately, we do not have to search hard for it.
Col 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Since God's plan is to reconcile all things to himself he will accomplish his plan. Eternal torment in the LOF does not fit into that plan since the souls there are tormented forever and never reconciled to God. Scripture can't contradict itself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hebrews 13:9-25 CSB - Don't be led astray by various kinds - Bible ...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13%3A9-25&version...
9 Don't be led astray by various kinds of strange teachings;

 

[FineLinen]

The Sheep & The Goats

The Sheep And The Goats - Jonathan Mitchell's Writings

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since God's plan is to reconcile all things to himself he will accomplish his plan. Eternal torment in the LOF does not fit into that plan since the souls there are tormented forever and never reconciled to God. Scripture can't contradict itself.

Do you think the fig tree He cursed will be brought back ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It appears that j.mitchell advocates the false gospel of inclusion.