Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

[DamianWarS]

Dear Damian: What is under consideration is the word aionios punishment in St. Matt. 25. The reason I "throw in" aidios is because aidios refers ONLY to the Eternal/aidios God.

You are correct with what you are saying however, in the scope of aionios punishment and aionios life.

With that said, there is a definition of aionios life by St. John, the beloved>>>>

"This IS aionios zoe, that we may know You..."

Please Note:

Aionios as defined by St. John is NOT length of time but quality.

Punishment in the same vein must also be a quality of punishment, NOT duration.

Thanks, I didn't ask for the definition or a commentary of the text, nor am I interested in a discussion about it.

 

[FineLinen]

What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time

Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

NOTE:

The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

“The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

…Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?
   
   
2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?
   
   
3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)
   
   
4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.
   
   
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.

If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”

Dear F.L.: Do not wear out the sheep! How about a shorter version of the scope of aionios?

F.W. Farrar and G.C. Morgan speak out against eternal torment

 

[Saint Steven]

...With that said, there is a definition of aionios life by St. John, the beloved>>>>

"This IS aionios zoe, that we may know You..."

Please Note:

Aionios as defined by St. John is NOT length of time but quality.

Punishment in the same vein must also be a quality of punishment, NOT duration.

How do we get "quality" rather than "duration" out of the definition of aionios zoe?
I have yet to fit that puzzle piece into the image we are assembling. Thanks.

 

[FineLinen]

"Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die," wrote the late Clark Pinnock, an influential evangelical theologian.

The ancient writers did not define the word αἰώνιος by the English translations or the word eternal. Aidios (ἀΐδιος) equates to that which is eternal, not aionios which is not its equivalent. Although αἰώνιος (aionios) may relate to that which is a long time or over the horizon, it does not mean eternal, unending or forever and ever as in eternity. Although it continues to appear that man cannot comprehend the existence of his errors, when too deeply immersed in them.

Why someone would want to support the idea of eternal punishment is beyond any moral comprehension; and is nothing more or less than sadistic, vengeful and absurdly asinine. It doesn't matter how many ways you want to justify it with an elitism mentality. No one is any greater or less than anyone else. The biggest problem with religion is that it believes otherwise - exalting itself.

Just keep adding onto the definition of what you believe is the meaning of a word to support your agenda.
And the pit (hole, grave) one digs becomes an eternal place of hellfire and brimstone for human damnation.

You cannot take something that is non-existent and call it reality by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[FineLinen]

How do we get "quality" rather than "duration" out of the definition of aionios zoe?
I have yet to fit that puzzle piece into the image we are assembling. Thanks.

Dear Saint: The link below may help.

F.W. Farrar and G.C. Morgan speak out against eternal torment

 

[aiki]

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

Is it returning evil for evil when a man is imprisoned for life for murdering people? No. How, then, is it returning evil for evil when God, the Ultimate Arbiter of Justice, the One to Whom all must give an account, renders punishment upon our evil deeds?

You might also consider that the everlasting punishment of hell is not an excessive response to our sin on God's part but is a testament in its severity to the true heinousness of our sin. We are easy with sin, comfortable with wickedness, familiar with evil and so we don't our sin as it really is. We don't see our sin with God's eyes. And so, we often wonder why hell is appropriate as a response to our mere "human failings." But God is telling us in how He punishes the unrepentant sinner with eternal torment and separation from Himself just how deeply evil and vile our sin is.

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Is justice not good? Yes, it is good. And so it is that we overcome evil with the good of justice - just as God does.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

But God has made a way for any who wants to escape such an end to do so. He inflicts endless punishment because the unrepentant sinner has refused His way of escape from such punishment.

Is endless punishment appropriate? See above. And remember: our sin is ultimately against an infinite God.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

Not in His essential nature, no. But He does repent of things, He changes His mind, as Scripture reveals, and alters the manner of His interactions with us (ie. Old Covenant versus New Covenant).

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

Though He loves them, God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psalm 7:11) And He is a just Judge and cannot sweep sin - even the sin of those He loves - under the rug. It is not godly love that sacrifices justice for the sake of love.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

It is just for God to one day hold the evil and unthankful to account for their wicked living. It is the common mercy and grace of God that allows the rain to fall on the righteous and the wicked alike.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

God, through Christ, has shown all the kindness He is obliged to show - and far more - to the wicked already. Is justice done if a judge lets a murderer off because the judge wants to show kindness to the murderer? What about those devastated by the vile act of the murderer? Is it kind and just to allow the man who has killed their loved one to do so with impunity? Obviously not.

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

Only if the atonement for their sin is unfulfilled; only if payment for sin is not made. God does not turn a blind eye to the sin of those who are saved. All of their sin was laid upon Christ who suffered and died in their place to satisfy the demands of God's justice. So, no, God never saves unjustly.

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

See above.

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

God is not obliged to show mercy to the unrepentant wicked. God was not under any obligation to show mercy to any of us. He shows mercy because He is a merciful God, not because we are owed mercy. And God has shown mercy already to the sinner in the work of Christ at Calvary - far more mercy than any sinner deserves. So, God, then, does not contravene mercy when He justly punishes the wicked for their sin. He offered mercy but it was rejected. All that remains is unmitigated and fully deserved justice.

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

See above.

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

The wicked and guilty always find justice "cruel."

 

[JacksBratt]

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.___Punishment is not returning evil for evil. God's judgement is righteous_____?

2.__God is not to overcome evil. Evil cannot exist in His presence. People either choose salvation or choose eternity in the absence of God. God never wanted anyone to go to hell. That's why He built a door out of it.... Christ is the door... If you deny the door.. that's your choice. __?

3.__The infliction of punishment is payment for the debt. The payment for sin is death. End of story__?

4.___God doesn't hate the sinner. He hates the sin. In fact He accepts us as we are.?

5._____God never changes. He loves His enemies but that does not pardon them from their debt to Him. Only repentance will change that.?

 

[Hawkins]

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

Basically it's God's business. If you choose to rely on your knowledge to judge God, it's the effect of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

That said. You made a wrong assumption here. Those in the punishment may no longer be humans. You don't need to assume that they are humans. What defines a human is his conscience which however belongs to God. Once a human is put in a permanent separation from God, God takes back his conscience. An analogy is the zombies, they bite (well sin) with no conscience. Thus they can be killed in mass in order to save a single human.

Don't judge God, and let God handle the situation.

 

[FineLinen]

We only know how great our salvation and God's grace when compared to eternal torment in hell. Hell glorifies God's grace and while at the same time it glorifies his wrath for sin.

Dear Dave: Can you direct me to any vague idea that the Father of all fathers desires to glorify His wrath? Come on Dave, surely you jest!

 

[FineLinen]

1. For I was an hungred
2. I was thirsty
3. I was a stranger
4. Naked
5. Sick

It seems to boil down to this:
"
And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'
"
(Mt 25:40)

In this context, it seems to directly follow from Jesus's ministry in chapter 23 (if I'm not mistaken what He is saying in 25 is a continuation of 23), where He speaks of the greatest commandment.

"
37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
"
(Mt 22:37–40).

Not abiding by the greatest commandment (of which the whole of the law rests on), not loving our neighbor, (i.e. could be anyne, as perhaps a stranger in need we cross paths with perhaps only once (like in the Parable of the Good Samaritan)), seems to be the crux. It seems almost impossible to break the second commandment without breaking the first, we are called to love even our enemies (what power do they have over how much of Christ's Love I have in my heart - so I should guard it against the seeds of hatred instead of letting that be an excuse for me to hate more and be a part of the problem instead of the solution).

"
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
"
(1 Jn 4:7–8).

Edit: Here in this context we may see clearly that small acts of kindness for others means a great deal. Perhaps storing up the oil refers to our works of faith that have built our character.

__________________________________________________

So, not loving God and/or one's brethren, everlasting punishment may be the consequence. I would like to refer to some commentary on the subject of everlasting punishment:

"
(3) The last judgement.—The NT doctrine of the last judgment leads to the same conclusion. Two things seem plainly taught about this judgment: the first, that it proceeds on the matter of the present life—“the things done in the body” (Mt 25:31–46; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12); and the second, that it is decisive in its issues. Not a single suggestion is given of a reversal of its decisions in any future age. Such silence is inexplicable if the Scriptures meant to teach what the opponents of this doctrine so confidently maintain.

...


2. Nature of Punishment
... The supreme penalty of sin is unquestionably the loss of God’s life and love—the being sinful. Environment, indeed, may be expected to correspond with character, but the hell is one the sinner essentially makes for himself, and, like the kingdom of God, is within.

...

4. Gradation of Punishment

The fullest weight must further be given to what the Scripture so expressly says of gradation of punishment, even of the unsaved. It is not the case that the lot of all who fail of the eternal life in Christ is all of one grade. ... There is a vast area here for the Divine administration on which no light at all is afforded us.

"

Orr, J. (1915). Punishment, Everlasting. In J. Orr, J. L. Nuelsen, E. Y. Mullins, & M. O. Evans (Eds.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Vol. 1–5, pp. 2502–2504). Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company.

Everlasting punishment seems to entail separation from God somehow. After the judgment, there are no second chances. There seems to be degrees of punishment for the doomed (the punishment will fit the crime). To be in rebellion against God, nothing in His creation being of comfort - all being as vanity of vanities striving for the wind - with of course not even God to turn to, if destruction would come it would ensue as an act of mercy. As much as I sympathize for any soul that goes to hell, seeming like the most hard to accept truth out there that some end up utterly doomed to everlasting punishment, all there is to do is trust the scriptures and heed the stern warnings, seeking to enter into life via the narrow way. Even the damned will be kneeling to God before His Justice:

"
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
"

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Php 2:9–11). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Dear Elixer: Our Father is not running a giant Heavenly gambling establishment! There is no 1st chance, no 2nd chance, no third chance...

NO CHANCE!

 

[Dave L]

Dear Dave: Can you direct me to any vague idea that the Father of all fathers desires to glorify His wrath? Common Dave, surely you jest!

God would not be good if he didn't punish sin. He glories in pouring out his wrath on sinners today, and forever.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (NASB95)

 

[FineLinen]

God would not be good if he didn't punish sin. He glories in pouring out his wrath on sinners today, and forever.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (NASB95)

Dear Dave: God absolutely punishes sin. His punishment leads to the peaceable fruit of righteousness, not unending punishment as an end.

You, my friend must find a new god!

God DOES NOT glory in pouring out His wrath on sinners today & forever!

 

[FineLinen]

"To You, oh Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work." -Psl. 62:12

2019 Version=

To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Saint: The link below may help.

F.W. Farrar and G.C. Morgan speak out against eternal torment

In reading this URL above I was drawn into another 'search'. Farrar used the word ateleuteos, which was new to me. I found a couple articles concerning it and below is the "quoted" gist of them and their application to your Matt 25 OP question All Bold blue is mine;

"Someone posted in another thread about the word ateleutetos, which I didn't know what it meant. It got me doing some looking. I found an interesting article that, among other things, said that Origen's belief in Universal Salvation was never condemned in his lifetime, and it was only in the 5-600's that attempts were made to do so (by Justinian) but still failed.

Hillsage; (FYI below; ET = Eternal Torture and Justinian succeeded Constantine as Emperor in 355AD)

Justinian, described as a "half-heathen", made an ET declaration, but didn't just use kolasis (punishment) aonian, but qualified it with the word 'ateleutetos' - which means endless.

He said "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Thereby admitting that kolasis aonian was NOT considered 'eternal' at the time.

However, as his (Julian) contemporary, Olympiodorus wrote, "Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon." It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner's improvement."

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks for a fantastic post.
Could you help me with these two acronyms?
I don't know what ECT and LOF are. Thanks.

I'll tackle this for you bro. Eternal Conscious Torment and Lake Of Fire.

 

[aiki]

Hell Interrupted – Part 3 | Stand to Reason

 

[Elixir]

Dear Elixer: Our Father is not running a giant Heavenly gambling establishment! There is no 1st chance, no 2nd chance, no third chance...

NO CHANCE!

Thank you for your response, FineLinen. I am working on answering the first questions too, thank you so much again for responding anyway ! Quite well said , I think too that God would not be the one gambling with our souls.

I've thought this over and yes, I can't argue otherwise with that point on salvation. Yes, one can seek Him and confess that He is Lord at any time and be saved through faith, there are no "chances" for one to do this ( I was thinking more along the lines of the things that can happen to us in life that can prompt / shake up / make us realize that Jesus is God in the flesh and we need Him).

Still, though, after death happens, when Judgment happens then it is too late to do anything about the outcome because of the finality of the judgment.


Referring to the cited source in my post above,

"
... [Maurice and others] — “The eternal punishment is the punishment of being without the knowledge of God, who is love, and of Jesus Christ who has manifested it; even as eternal life is declared to be the having the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ” (Theological Essays, 450). The supreme penalty of sin is unquestionably the loss of God’s life and love—the being sinful. Environment, indeed, may be expected to correspond with character, but the hell is one the sinner essentially makes for himself, and, like the kingdom of God, is within.

"

Orr, J. (1915). Punishment, Everlasting. In J. Orr, J. L. Nuelsen, E. Y. Mullins, & M. O. Evans (Eds.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Vol. 1–5, pp. 2503–2504). Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company.

The foundation for everlasting punishment would be one's own inner state. If one's inner state is not of the Kingdom of Heaven, it will be inhospitable and one will as a natural consequence be stuck in outer darkness. Principally, could one with a hellish inner state in the afterlife plead for salvation and receive it, or is it always too late immediately after death or some time after with judgment if there is any space between the two? I don't see judgment where one is cast into the lake of fire as a purifying experience leading to salvation either, because the punishment of destruction is everlasting.

 

[nolidad]

What is the purpose for punishment by a caliber father of this earth? Does our Heavenly Father outshine any quality father?

Well the purpose of discipline (better than punishment) is to train a child to avoid wrong.

Punishment is to exact justice against the wrong doer. God disciplines His children (which is better translated train) while those who are not HIs children receive eternal punishment!

Once again we can argue how fair it seems or not seems or how just or unjust it may be, but understands this: God is sovereign and creator. He owns everything and nothing exists apart from His Will. He gets to make the rules! It matters not whether we like the rules or not! Whether we find them fair or not. They are His decrees and we must accept them!

 

[Oldmantook]

Thanks for a fantastic post.
Could you help me with these two acronyms?
I don't know what ECT and LOF are. Thanks.

sorry - eternal conscious torment and lake of fire.

 

[FineLinen]

Thank you for your response, FineLinen. I am working on answering the first questions too, thank you so much again for responding anyway ! Quite well said , I think too that God would not be the one gambling with our souls.

I've thought this over and yes, I can't argue otherwise with that point on salvation. Yes, one can seek Him and confess that He is Lord at any time and be saved through faith, there are no "chances" for one to do this ( I was thinking more along the lines of the things that can happen to us in life that can prompt / shake up / make us realize that Jesus is God in the flesh and we need Him).

Still, though, after death happens, when Judgment happens then it is too late to do anything about the outcome because of the finality of the judgment.


Referring to the cited source in my post above,

"
... [Maurice and others] — “The eternal punishment is the punishment of being without the knowledge of God, who is love, and of Jesus Christ who has manifested it; even as eternal life is declared to be the having the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ” (Theological Essays, 450). The supreme penalty of sin is unquestionably the loss of God’s life and love—the being sinful. Environment, indeed, may be expected to correspond with character, but the hell is one the sinner essentially makes for himself, and, like the kingdom of God, is within.

"

Orr, J. (1915). Punishment, Everlasting. In J. Orr, J. L. Nuelsen, E. Y. Mullins, & M. O. Evans (Eds.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Vol. 1–5, pp. 2503–2504). Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company.

The foundation for everlasting punishment would be one's own inner state. If one's inner state is not of the Kingdom of Heaven, it will be inhospitable and one will as a natural consequence be stuck in outer darkness. Principally, could one with a hellish inner state in the afterlife plead for salvation and receive it, or is it always too late immediately after death or some time after with judgment if there is any space between the two? I don't see judgment where one is cast into the lake of fire as a purifying experience leading to salvation either, because the punishment of destruction is everlasting.

Dear Elixir: I am going to start a link regarding the Lake of Fire in the future (hopefully). Again; this link is intended to determine what are the foundations for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master.

"Utter destruction"

Kolasis aionion -Matthew 25:46-

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”