• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Aug 6, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    Dear Damian: My friend this is one of the problems for many. Aidios is ONLY applied to God, the aidios/eternal God. Aionios on the other hand has the scope of ages from which more ages flow. The foundation for aionios is the Old Covenant Hebrew Olam.

    Olam=

    HEBREW WORD STUDIES עוֹלָם, 'olam' for 'everlasting, age-lasting'
     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    [​IMG]
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    My friends: take a close look at the Master of Reconciliation. Do you see the young goat He carries on His shoulder? This is from the early Church catacombs of early Christians. Think upon it!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

    667
    +622
    Japan
    Lutheran
    Married
    Let me put it this way - Scripture gives different illustrations of what damnation look like and I summarised a few. The clearest illustration of damnation I think is Matthew 25:31-46 and Matthew 7:21-23. Here we find that those who reject God through unbelief and self-righteousness are separated from and cast out of God's presence. That is what the second death is. The Scriptural image of judgment of evil is that Satan, demons, hell, death and unbelievers are thrown away from God, permanently.

    The reason I don't address each question individually is simply that they're not framed by what Scripture says. For example:

    "1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?"
    No, it wouldn't. A question like this betrays a low view of sin and confuses God's righteousness with evil. God is good. The punishment of evil in and of itself is a good and righteous work, in perfect accordance with God's good and righteous nature. Furthermore, the punishment of evil at the last day is separation from God, not the bestowing or imputing of moral evil, for God neither creates nor gives evil. God demonstrates His mercy and righteousness through the person and works of His Son, Jesus Christ.
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    My friend: The amazing man of Spirit, Isaac Watts wrote over 750 hymns of the Christian Church. Since it is only 4 1/2 months to Christmas, let's sing together>>>

    No more let sin and sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow>>>>

    Far as the curse is found!

     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +1,640
    Christian
    Private
    I don't mention "Aidios" so I'm not sure why you're throwing that in. It's not my argument so keep it for someone who brings that up. I also never took a crack at interpreting the word or comparing it with aidios. I'm just saying whatever you do to the top you do to the bottom.
     
  7. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    +1,144
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    But with your 'eyes anew', it is truly a joy to see the student so quickly, now adding 'posts of instruction'. :oldthumbsup: And doing so 'here' when not too long ago, posts of rejection were the order of your day. Yes, you will still wrestle with issues concerning this belief, I do too. I suspect that only fools think they know it all when the things of God are discussed. But it is clear that your 'spiritual vision' is quickly passing the limited view of your old 'religious eye sight'. :)
     
  8. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +283
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I like this verse too.


    Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
    Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



    In other words, this is how God is towards his enemies, so do the same. Also, if the Father doesn't behave like this towards his enemies, he is either not perfect, by his own definition of perfect, or he's a hypocrite, and I think we all know how God feels about hypocrites.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,983
    Christian
    Single
    No more than a prison term for a murderer would be an "evil" reprisal.

    You said it yourself..."punishment".
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,983
    Christian
    Single
    I can see any given local police department telling his townspeople to treat everyone just as the scripture there says, in order to keep the peace, while they explain if evil people get too far out of hand, they will take it from there. If the law jailed those that get too far out of hand, would you consider them hypocrites, imperfect?

    Personally, calling the law/God hypocrites in the mentioned scenario, would not even cross my mind, that is unless I were just looking for any reason, wrong or right, to unfairly put God, or the law down, where I might then let common sense slip away, and allow small mindedness to prevail to whatever degree I might need it too..
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  11. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

    +1,085
    United States
    Christian
    Widowed
    We don't understand everything about how God works. Perhaps they are given a choice even though their minds are immature or impaired.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +2,076
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Does this square with these scriptures?

    Romans 5:8
    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    860
    +550
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    -No. Unless you want to say that Christ did not deserve the punishment he took for our sake. He was innocent --the ONLY innocent ever punished for sin.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +2,076
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for a fantastic post.
    Could you help me with these two acronyms?
    I don't know what ECT and LOF are. Thanks.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +2,076
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, but would we hold God to a lower standard, or a higher standard than humankind?
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +2,076
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Wow. That's interesting. Verses 44-47 help to define the perfectness of God in verse 48. Endless and pointless punishment seem to be missing from the list.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    Dear Damian: What is under consideration is the word aionios punishment in St. Matt. 25. The reason I "throw in" aidios is because aidios refers ONLY to the Eternal/aidios God.

    You are correct with what you are saying however, in the scope of aionios punishment and aionios life.

    With that said, there is a definition of aionios life by St. John, the beloved>>>>

    "This IS aionios zoe, that we may know You..."

    Please Note:

    Aionios as defined by St. John is NOT length of time but quality.

    Punishment in the same vein must also be a quality of punishment, NOT duration.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    Dear Kenny: I repeat, Divine Punishment has a consummation, not mindless non ending torture or pain, but the working of the Father of all fathers whose sole purpose is change & transformation.

    Will He be successful? YUP!
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    What The New Testament Teaches

    Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time

    Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

    These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

    NOTE:

    The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

    “The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

    " 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

    The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

    So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

    …Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

    Quality & Quantity

    Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

    Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

    Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

    Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

    As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

    Thus

    The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

    The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

    In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

    In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

    The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

    In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

    Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

    And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

    So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

    Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

    And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

    NOTE:

    Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

    Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

    Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

    In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

    In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

    Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

    Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

    In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

    In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

    Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

    In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

    And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

    Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

    Difficulties

    1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

    2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

    3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)

    4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.

    5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
    If Aion Is Not Infinite

    But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

    Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

    They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

    Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

    In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

    So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

    Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

    In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

    In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

    In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

    And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,456
    Non-Denom
    Dear Monster Man: It is a joy seeing you again! Amen & amen to your expression.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...