Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short

[yeshuasavedme]

No one was saved until Jesus actually died on the cross. Up until then there was a promise, a hope of redemption, but until Jesus actually died and resurrected there was no act by which man could be saved.
Doug

Hi Douggg,
Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Atonement was as good as done, from the promise and plan of it from the beginning, for our peace and acceptance with God.

Abraham saw the Day which God made "from the beginning of the world" in the sacrifice of Isaac.
Abraham named Mount Moriah YHWH- Reu and, they say, Shalom.

Jerusalem is a contraction of the Hebrew sentence which Abraham named Mount Moriah when he saw Jesus' Day of Atonement and rejoiced in it, signifying that YHWH shall be Seen on this mount, and He shall be Peace with God on this mount, or even, possibly YHWH- Seen/Reu- Tselem contracted to Yerushalem
At any rate: Abraham named Jerusalem that day; and ever after it was the name of the City of God which God declares bears His own name, just as the seed of Jacob bear His name of Firstborn in the New Man creation name, "Israel". Both the holy city and the holy people are named after YHWH and His One Image who is come in flesh and in whose image/Teslem Adam is made, as Romans 5:14 and also Genesis 1:26-28 states.

In Psalm 118, you will find the day to rejoice in as the Day of Atonement which Abraham saw, which is the Day God made from the foundation of the world, when our God was the Ram made from the beginning for our Peace, and was bound to the horns of the altar as our Peace, which is the Acceptable Atonement, making Peace with God for the fallen and lost Adam race and his lost dominion..

118 ...
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord:
20 This gate of the Lord, into which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.
29 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

The revelation of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world was given to Abraham in the sacrifice of Isaac, which is reported more fully in the Book of Jasher, but we could still use more full reporting of that day, and I am sure Abraham wrote it in his records, but Jasher is a redaction taken from the writings of the patriarchs and which is redacted even more for the Genesis record.
Here is what the "Upright Record" states, about that Day which Abraham saw and rejoiced in:

At that time the Lord appeared unto Abraham, and called to him, from heaven, and said unto him, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him, for now I know that thou fearest God in performing this act, and in not withholding thy son, thine only son, from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, a ram was caught in a thicket by his horns; that was the ram which the Lord God had created in the earth in the day that he made earth and heaven.

For the Lord had prepared this ram from that day, to be a burnt offering instead of Isaac.
And this ram was advancing to Abraham when Satan caught hold of him and entangled his horns in the thicket, that he might not advance to Abraham, in order that Abraham might slay his son.

And Abraham, seeing the ram advancing to him and Satan withholding him, fetched him and brought him before the altar, and he loosened his son Isaac from his binding, and he put the ram in his stead, and Abraham killed the ram upon the altar, and brought it up as an offering in the place of his son Isaac.
And Abraham sprinkled some of the blood of the ram upon the altar, and he exclaimed and said, This is in the place of my son, and may this be considered this day as the blood of my son before the Lord.
And all that Abraham did on this occasion by the altar, he would exclaim and say, This is in the room of my son, and may it this day be considered before the Lord in the place of my son; and Abraham finished the whole of the service by the altar, and the service was accepted before the Lord, and was accounted as if it had been Isaac; and the Lord blessed Abraham and his seed on that day.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Before His name was revealed, He was "The Redeemer/Kinsman"; when it was revealed to Jacob, he built an altar in memorial to His name and named that altar, "God, the Mighty God, Israel".
Job called Him "My Redeemer/Kinsman".
David called Him "My LORD" in the Psalm.

He has lots of names, but as a new creation human being, "Israel" is His own namesake, and the High Priest in Israel served in His office, garmented in the garments of New Man typology and "Anointed" with the Oil of Anointing/ Messiah, so as to rehearse His Day of Atonement, which was to come.

Job 19:25-29

25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,
Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Atonement was as good as done, from the promise and plan of it from the beginning, for our peace and acceptance with God.

Abraham saw the Day which God made "from the beginning of the world" in the sacrifice of Isaac.
Abraham named Mount Moriah YHWH- Reu and, they say, Shalom.

Jerusalem is a contraction of the Hebrew sentence which Abraham named Mount Moriah when he saw Jesus' Day of Atonement and rejoiced in it, signifying that YHWH shall be Seen on this mount, and He shall be Peace with God on this mount, or even, possibly YHWH- Seen/Reu- Tselem contracted to Yerushalem
At any rate: Abraham named Jerusalem that day; and ever after it was the name of the City of God which God declares bears His own name, just as the seed of Jacob bear His name of Firstborn in the New Man creation name, "Israel". Both the holy city and the holy people are named after YHWH and His One Image who is come in flesh and in whose image/Teslem Adam is made, as Romans 5:14 and also Genesis 1:26-28 states.

In Psalm 118, you will find the day to rejoice in as the Day of Atonement which Abraham saw, which is the Day God made from the foundation of the world, when our God was the Ram made from the beginning for our Peace, and was bound to the horns of the altar as our Peace, which is the Acceptable Atonement, making Peace with God for the fallen and lost Adam race and his lost dominion..

The revelation of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world was given to Abraham in the sacrifice of Isaac, which is reported more fully in the Book of Jasher, but we could still use more full reporting of that day, and I am sure Abraham wrote it in his records, but Jasher is a redaction taken from the writings of the patriarchs and which is redacted even more for the Genesis record.
Here is what the "Upright Record" states, about that Day which Abraham saw and rejoiced in:

That Abraham fully understood the gospel message that redemption of mankind from the power of sin through the death and resurrection of the messiah would contradict several bible passages in the new testament, which say the gospel was kept a secret from understanding. Jesus opening the disciples understanding of the gospel after the resurrection in Luke 24:44-47. Which the revealed understanding has been preached down through the generations to what we know of the gospel.

Abraham may have been aware of a promise of redemption but the means was kept a secret from understanding until after the resurrection.

A person who is saved, upon death they go directly to heaven. In Luke, we hear of Lazarus and Abraham not in heaven, but in the place of comfort separated from the place of torment by the great chasm.

Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


This story was all before Jesus went to the cross. So Abraham was not in heaven prior to the cross, which meant he was not saved because a person who is saved they go to heaven upon dying. Later, Abraham did go to heaven after Jesus descended into hell and preached the gospel setting the captives free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3qSrpC4jo


Doug

 

[B1inHim]

If one was to literally equate a day becoming shortened in actual time span then we would be left to changing the clock to read less than what they are.

This is not possible according to the law of physics.

60 minutes will always be 60 minutes.

However, when we consider the time in a less fundamental manner we are able to understand that what is being said is not what we see.

When we first began to move into the time that we live in today back at the turn of the 20th century. A horse moved us approximately 20 miles a day, then a car came about and decreased that time to 1 hour and now we are able to move at hundreds of miles an hour in the air or drive 20 miles in our car in less than 15 minutes.

Back when I was growing up, a summer day in the 60' was longer than one that we had this past summer season.

Now we barely have enough time to get our daily agenda completed by days end without a planner.

Time has been shortened by reason of the Divine Design that Jesus made provision for hundreds of thousands of years ago, we call them fossil fuels.

Because of this particular Divine Design, the industry that we have today operates in nano/micro-seconds compared to hours, days and the very literal times of yesteryear.

He has indeed, by Divine Design Authorship, brought about our present days to be shortened. Thus the desire for us to understand His infinite concept is beyond our finite grasp.


Love,
ערבות מדינה
Bond Servant
Brother Jerry
AKA
B1inHim


Be Still my Soul - YouTube

 

[ebedmelech]

What you are not getting is that Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist were not saved back in their day when they were alive - because Jesus had not died for their sins back then. And besides that they did not even know that the messiah would die for their sins as being the means of their redemption, because that was kept a secret from understanding until after the resurrection.

It wasn't until after Jesus had died on the cross and descended into hell (hades) and preached the gospel to them that they were saved by believing and embracing it. As a result, their souls are all in heaven now, awaiting the rapture/resurrection.

No one was saved until after Jesus died on the cross. You are mixing up righteousness with salvation.

And as far as Abraham goes, this might as well be him singing in heaven, because it is by the precious blood of Jesus that he got there

Doug

Ok Doug. Continue to think they were not saved.

Please explain why Moses and Elijah were with Jesus on the "Mount of Transfiguration". and Why Samuel appeared to Saul.

Oh yes...and please explain why Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced (notice the past tense), to see His day and was glad".

I'd like to know your answer to those...and please note that this was BEFORE Jesus went to the cross.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If one was to literally equate a day becoming shortened in actual time span then we would be left to changing the clock to read less than what they are.

This is not possible according to the law of physics.

60 minutes will always be 60 minutes.

Not always. God's time is measured by the sun, moon, and stars in their daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly orbits in the heavens, around the earth.
When the earth is moved out of her place and turned upside down, and skips about as a hunted roe and staggers as a drunken man in the Great Tribulation, then you won't be able to measure time as it is measured at present.

Once, Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and it stood still -and the moon did also, and ceased not to go down; so time ceased to be measured and did not advance for almost a whole day.
The moon also stood still because the sun and moon are in a magnetic relationship and "keep faith with one another" for all time, as Enoch revealed.

And then, time went backwards, as a sign to Hezekiah, in Isaiah 38.


I just tell it like I see it, and the days will not shine and the nights will not shine for one third the time of their shining, which makes 16 hour days, or, in the calendar Enoch was shown -which is God's measures of time- the day and night are measured in a total of 18 parts instead of 24 hours: so the day will be measured as 12 parts, according to the Enochian calendar, at that time, instead of measured as 16 hours.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That Abraham fully understood the gospel message that redemption of mankind from the power of sin through the death and resurrection of the messiah would contradict several bible passages in the new testament, which say the gospel was kept a secret from understanding.
Doug

Dougg, Jesus was not revealed in flesh, but the Gospel was always preached in the Living Oracles, and rehearsed by the priests, but God hid the Doctrine of the message by blinding the eyes when the priests and prophets were living so backslidden, without repentance -but not from everyone; Babes can understand, even!.
Even the ancient Chinese Oracle bone writing -which was invented soon after the fall of the tower of Bab-El- tells the entire Gospel story from the creation to the Atonement, in the characters invented to use for writing that language.

Isaiah 29:
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine [-the Message!]? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.


Matthew 11:


25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

]

 

[Douggg]

Ok Doug. Continue to think they were not saved.

Please explain why Moses and Elijah were with Jesus on the "Mount of Transfiguration". and Why Samuel appeared to Saul.

Oh yes...and please explain why Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced (notice the past tense), to see His day and was glad".

I'd like to know your answer to those...and please note that this was BEFORE Jesus went to the cross.

No one was saved until after Jesus died on the cross.

Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc are in heaven now. But they were not until Jesus died, and he descended into hell, preached the gospel and set the captives free. "descended" doesn't mean into the literal earth, but a place in some dimension other than heaven. The place of comfort was called Abraham's bosom, and paradise. Still, it was not heaven.

Moses and Elijah suddenly appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Okay, so what's the point? They weren't saved at time, because salvation is only by the death and resurrection of Jesus, which hadn't happen up to that point. You could come up with some other words to describe their existence, but saved is not one of them.

Doug

 

[yeshuasavedme]

4000 years ago to Abraham's time, what washed away Abraham's sins as though they never happened? Same question about David.

No-one was, is, or shall be saved except by the shed blood of Jesus. To say otherwise is to say there is another way to salvation than by Christ.

Doug

The blood of Atonement was introduced at the time of the fall.
Sacrifice for sin was offered yearly, at the time of Adam's death [which is the time of the fast of Yom Kippur, in Israel], by those who served as "kings and priests of God" in the patriarchal line from Adam to Moses, and then through the Levitical priesthood -who offered sacrifices for the nations, once, yearly, also. The blood of Atonement was only to serve as a type of the Lamb of God who was to come.
Shem was the priest of the Most High God who met Abraham with bread and wine, to whom Abraham paid tithes.
Shem was "morphed" by the Holy Spirit into the likeness of the Son of God for the express purpose of teaching about the Son of God, yet he was the person of Shem, as the ancient writings say, who was contemporary with Abraham and who met Abraham that day.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The blood of Atonement was introduced at the time of the fall.
Sacrifice for sin was offered yearly, at the time of Adam's death [which is the time of the fast of Yom Kippur, in Israel], by those who served as "kings and priests of God" in the patriarchal line from Adam to Moses, and then through the Levitical priesthood -who offered sacrifices for the nations, once, yearly, also. The blood of Atonement was only to serve as a type of the Lamb of God who was to come.
Shem was the priest of the Most High God who met Abraham with bread and wine, to whom Abraham paid tithes.
Shem was "morphed" by the Holy Spirit into the likeness of the Son of God for the express purpose of teaching about the Son of God, yet he was the person of Shem, as the ancient writings say, who was contemporary with Abraham and who met Abraham that day.

Enoch is an adopted, born again in spirit and flesh son of the Living Spirit/Christ, and Enoch is in heaven -in Eden, in the third heaven which Adam got cast down and out of- and is with the Watcher angels and serves with them. Enoch showed John around in Revelation and told John not to worship him, for he was a fellow prophet and of his [human being] brethren/brothers.
Enoch also was one of the seven glorified human beings serving in the heavenly priesthood [dressed tin the garments of linen], and who are the messengers of God who come out of the temple in heaven with the seven bowls of wrath to pour out on the inhabitants on earth, below, in the great tribulation.

Elijah is in heaven, and Moses is in heaven, but they do not have their regenerated bodies, and will not until they are slain by the man of sin and are resurrected three and a half days later in their regenerated bodies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Before "the Day the LORD made" from the foundation of the earth was fulfilled, [when the Acceptable sacrifice was received that made an end of the remembrance of sin before the Glory above], we see in Enoch that the righteous -redeemed by promise- saints awaited that Day, so they could go to heaven to await their resurrection bodies; and we see in Enoch that the unrepentant now await their resurrection from the dead still, in Sheol.

A Visit to Sheol
Enoch 22
22 And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west another great and high mountain and of hard rock.
2And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.
3Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here.
4And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period till the period appointed, till the great judgement comes upon them."
5I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit.
6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?"
7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men."
8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?"
9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.
10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime.

11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.

12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners.

13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence."
14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hey Robert,

I just can't agree with that. I believe I can prove that there is another rapture in addition to the one we see in Matt 24. Let me reword that Robert. I believe that you cannot disprove that there will be a pre trib rapture.

Hello Choose Wisely,

I don't have any desire to disprove a theory that lacks biblical support. And claiming that the rapture is imminent does not qualify as biblical support, and the same goes for the myriad of assumptions that the pre-trib theory was built upon. It's a house of cards.

Anyway, I've got some questions for you if you have the time? And I don't think you've heard them before.

No problem, brother. If I don't answer them right away, I'll get around to them when I can, Lord willing.

 

[B1inHim]

_removed by author NOT OP CORRECT

 

[Manasseh_]

Jesus preached the gospel to them. What do you think the gospel is?

that's simply not the question that was asked, he was in the grave, dead, but you claim he was alive , didn't really die..........he either died or he didn't die ??

 

[Manasseh_]

The chuch will be gone. All you have to do is look at WWII. What did Germany and Rome do????????? They went after the house of Israel attempting to fulfill the prohecy. It will happen again after the church is gone.


The two witnesses are not the church members.......they are prophets. We know that one of them is Elijah the prophet.

Use some common sense.

Germany and Rome didn't go after the House of Israel, they are the northern tribes that have been lost for centuries..............they went after the House of Judah, the southern tribes (Jews).......you don't even know your biblical history

The house of Judah has rejected Christ as Messiah , they don't keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus as the SAINTS described in Revelation do...........

you're the one who should be using common sense............if you reject Christ you certainly wouldn't have his testimony and you wouldn't be saying that someone dead (Elijah) is going to be one of God's 2 servants, his witnesses...............they are SAINTS, of the body of Christ........they are raised in the first resurrection at the end of tribulation according to Revelation and the few verses about the 2 witnesses do NOT GIVE any names to begin with, again as usual with pretrib you ASSUME this by human reasoning NOT SCRIPTURE................Elijah is in his grave awaiting the first resurrection , scripture never mentions or teaches that he is raised before the appointed time of the first resurrection (last day)

your answers only show further how pretrib is part of the bigger lie of satan's false dispensational deception

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

4000 years ago to Abraham's time, what washed away Abraham's sins as though they never happened? Same question about David.

No-one was, is, or shall be saved except by the shed blood of Jesus. To say otherwise is to say there is another way to salvation than by Christ.

Doug

Hi Doug,

The same blood that washed away our sins washed away the sins of the old testament saints. The Jews no longer have to kill a spotless lamb every year to atone for their sins. Just before Christ died on the cross, He said, "It is finished." He died once, for (ALL), which includes those who were looking forward to the promises that were fulfilled by the lamb of God.

 

[ebedmelech]

No one was saved until after Jesus died on the cross.

Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc are in heaven now. But they were not until Jesus died, and he descended into hell, preached the gospel and set the captives free. "descended" doesn't mean into the literal earth, but a place in some dimension other than heaven. The place of comfort was called Abraham's bosom, and paradise. Still, it was not heaven.

Moses and Elijah suddenly appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Okay, so what's the point? They weren't saved at time, because salvation is only by the death and resurrection of Jesus, which hadn't happen up to that point. You could come up with some other words to describe their existence, but saved is not one of them.

Doug

You really just deny scripture Doug...OR...you don't follow it correctly.

Salvation is seen all through the OT. Anyone that God declares righteous is saved. If it is said of anyone by God in the OT that they were "RIGHTEOUS", that means they were saved.

This is why Paul uses Abraham in Romans 4. Paul is very careful about what he is saying in this passage. It is clear:
Romans 4:1-3:
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

If God says a person is "righteous" or is "justified" that means they are saved.
Examples of this are seen it what God says of Noah:
Genesis 6:8
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Noah is saved just as we are...by grace through faith! His life testifies that he believes in God, as it is further said of Noah:
Genesis 6:9:
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man (Romans 4), blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
Noah's salvation is seen in the fact that God SAVED HIM by the Ark. Noah's Ark is a picture of salvation.

There are other pictures of salvation in the OT that you have to really ignore to not see.

Take the Passover lamb...it is a picture of Christ. Notice what is said of the Passover lamb:
Exoudus 12:3
3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers’ households, a lamb for each household.
4 Now if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the number of persons in them; according to what each man should eat, you are to divide the lamb.
4 Now if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the number of persons in them; according to what each man should eat, you are to divide the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.
6 You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight. 7 Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it.

Three things are said of the Passover lamb that speaks of Christ:

*It is a Lamb - As John said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world".

*It is unblemished - It speaks to the sinless perfection of Christ.

*It was to be kill and the blood placed on the doorpost - That blood speaks to the Blood of Christ.

The Passover ordinance that God gave helped "THOSE WHO BELIEVED" to see the coming of the Messiah!

Because Messiah was future, those who honored this IN FAITH, were saved! It didn't matter that they didn't know Christ because He had not been born into the world at this time. God honored this symbolism of Christ!

This is why God said "When I see the blood, I will PASSOVER you"...this is another picture of salvation.

It's said of so many in the OT by God, that they were "righteous". Since you don't understand that to be salvation, you're denying the scriptures, and you're denying the salvation of so many OT saints and the pictures of salvation like.

*Sodom and Gomorrah - The picture is Lot being SAVED from God's wrath.

*Rahab - She had to place a scarlet cord in her window and she was SAVED from the destruction of Jericho. Rahab s in the line of Christ.

This is the point of Hebrews 9:11-12:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This is telling us that the high priest, the tabernacle, and the offerings of the tabernacle were all pictures of Christ!

It says in verse 13 that the sprinkling of the "blood of goats and bulls" and the "ashes of a heifer" "sanctified and cleansed" those OT believers! God honored that as their salvation

We know this because verse 15 tells us that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of that!

After that, God NO LONGER honored animal sacrifice!!! This is why when Christ died on the cross, the scripture says:
Matthew 27:50-51:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

The "veil being torn in two" is God saying sacrifice and offering were no longer accepted for salvation...because Christ had fulfilled that as "THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE". Christ's sacrifice is what all those things pointed too! After Christ died all who will be saved has to look to Christ for salvation. This would be where I wholeheartedly agree with you on Acts 4:12...that is THE NEW COVENANT the Old Covenant is no longer honored.

You still may not change your mind, but that is OT salvation! It was honored by God, and they were saved, and I encourage you to re-examine your position that OT saints were not saved, they were!

 

[Douggg]

You really just deny scripture Doug...OR...you don't follow it correctly.

Salvation is seen all through the OT. Anyone that God declares righteous is saved. If it is said of anyone by God in the OT that they were "RIGHTEOUS", that means they were saved.

No, it doesn't. Because they were not declared "perfectly" righteous in the ot.

If you were to time travel back to Abraham's day and asked him...

"Are you saved?"

His response would be a puzzled look. "Saved from what?"

"You know washed in the blood of the messiah, the promised great king of Israel descended from David."

His response would be, "David who?" "What do you mean washed in the blood?"

Abraham, though declared righteous and looking for the redemption of mankind was not saved.

Unbelieving Jews (Judaism) of today believe in the promise of the redemption of mankind; they also believe that they will live again in resurrected bodies, just like Job did. But they are not saved because they have not received the gospel.

Abraham was saved by receiving the gospel after it had been revealed.

This is why Paul uses Abraham in Romans 4. Paul is very careful about what he is saying in this passage. It is clear:
Romans 4:1-3:
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The Jews (Judaism) believe God as well. But they are not "saved" because of it. A person cannot be saved except by receiving the gospel.

If God says a person is "righteous" or is "justified" that means they are saved.

No, it doesn't. being righteous does not mean being justified. Being justified, declared not guilty, is that our sins was bore by Jesus on the cross.... and that we received that gospel.

Examples of this are seen it what God says of Noah:
Genesis 6:8
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

If you time traveled back to Noah's day and asked him, "Are you saved?"

You would get the same puzzled look, as you would get from Abraham back in his day.

Ask anyone here who has received the gospel, "Are you saved?", you would get a very resounding positive, "Yes, I am saved by the blood of Jesus."

Noah is saved just as we are...by grace through faith!

No, Noah in his day was not saved because his faith was in God, but not in the gospel message of the shed blood of Jesus, which Noah did not know about.

His life testifies that he believes in God, as it is further said of Noah:
Genesis 6:9:
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man (Romans 4), blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
Noah's salvation is seen in the fact that God SAVED HIM by the Ark. Noah's Ark is a picture of salvation.

God did "save" him from the flood. But that does not equate to the eternal "saving" of his soul. God saved me from dying in a car wreck (at a time before I has received the gospel), and from drowning on several occasions, but that was not eternal "salvation" of my soul.

There are other pictures of salvation in the OT that you have to really ignore to not see.

Read these verse which was after the Resurrection.

Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


All these verses you are quoting thinking you are educating me (as if I am not aware of them), regarding "written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms," regarding Jesus is ONLY because it has been taught down through the generations, having it's start with the disciples who AFTER the resurrection had their understanding of the everything "written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, regarding Jesus opened to them.

No-one understood the gospel before the resurrection, because it was kept a secret by God from anyone understanding it.


A person is not "saved" apart from receiving the gospel. None of the OT persons would know what you were talking about if you time-traveled back to their day and asked them, "Are you saved?"

Doug

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No, it doesn't. Because they were not declared "perfectly" righteous in the ot.

If you were to time travel back to Abraham's day and asked him...

"Are you saved?"

His response would be a puzzled look. "Saved from what?"

You need to historically and biblically travel back, and see what Abraham saw, from afar, and sought to enter because he confessed he was a stranger and pilgrim -heading for the City of God in heaven, because he saw it, afar off.

If you time traveled back to Noah's day and asked him, "Are you saved?"

You would get the same puzzled look...]

Doug

Noah is the great grandson of Enoch, who is saved indeed, and in Eden above, and is glorified. Enoch's son, Methusaleh, Noah's grandfather, preached righteousness and repentance with Noah for 120 years, and they knew what God's plan was for earth. Methusaleh only died one week before the flood, and then it came.
It is only you who is puzzled by unbelief and ignorance of the biblical doctrine and historical writings of the Patriarchs, themselves, and you are projecting your own ignorance upon those who indeed knew they were "saved" by the promised redeemer, and were on their way to the City of God in heaven, which Adam got cast down and out of and ceased to multiply to build that city up by, with his own seed coming forth as the sons of God.

Malachi 2:15; "He made them one because he sought sons of God/godly seed";
Haggai 2,... so as to build the Temple of YHWH not made with hands;
Adam is the first defiled, ruined temple; Israel is the name of the second glorified temple which is in the building up, of, by adoption from the Adam seed into the New Man name, to be built up as a temple not made with hands, "for the Glory" to indwell:
That is what Adam lost and what the New Man is come as Kinsman/Redeemer to do. YHWH repeatedly states in the Tenach that He is the Redeemer/Kinsman of Israel, whose name as Kinsman/Redeemer is Israel [Isaiah 49], which name He invoked over Jacob as the sign of the adoption into that New Man name, and thereby, into the building of God, not made with hands.

 

[ebedmelech]

No, it doesn't. Because they were not declared "perfectly" righteous in the ot.

If you were to time travel back to Abraham's day and asked him...

"Are you saved?"

His response would be a puzzled look. "Saved from what?"

"You know washed in the blood of the messiah, the promised great king of Israel descended from David."

His response would be, "David who?" "What do you mean washed in the blood?"

Abraham, though declared righteous and looking for the redemption of mankind was not saved.

Unbelieving Jews (Judaism) of today believe in the promise of the redemption of mankind; they also believe that they will live again in resurrected bodies, just like Job did. But they are not saved because they have not received the gospel.

Abraham was saved by receiving the gospel after it had been revealed.

The Jews (Judaism) believe God as well. But they are not "saved" because of it. A person cannot be saved except by receiving the gospel.

No, it doesn't. being righteous does not mean being justified. Being justified, declared not guilty, is that our sins was bore by Jesus on the cross.... and that we received that gospel.



If you time traveled back to Noah's day and asked him, "Are you saved?"

You would get the same puzzled look, as you would get from Abraham back in his day.

Ask anyone here who has received the gospel, "Are you saved?", you would get a very resounding positive, "Yes, I am saved by the blood of Jesus."


No, Noah in his day was not saved because his faith was in God, but not in the gospel message of the shed blood of Jesus, which Noah did not know about.

God did "save" him from the flood. But that does not equate to the eternal "saving" of his soul. God saved me from dying in a car wreck (at a time before I has received the gospel), and from drowning on several occasions, but that was not eternal "salvation" of my soul.

Read these verse which was after the Resurrection.

Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


All these verses you are quoting thinking you are educating me (as if I am not aware of them), regarding "written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms," regarding Jesus is ONLY because it has been taught down through the generations, having it's start with the disciples who AFTER the resurrection had their understanding of the everything "written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, regarding Jesus opened to them.

No-one understood the gospel before the resurrection, because it was kept a secret by God from anyone understanding it.


A person is not "saved" apart from receiving the gospel. None of the OT persons would know what you were talking about if you time-traveled back to their day and asked them, "Are you saved?"

Doug

You've really got it wrong here Doug. I don't know where you got this stuff from...but it's dead wrong.

Why do you think God uses the name "Jehovah-Tsidkenu" for Himself in the OT?It meansLord our Righteousness.

Go you even know who Melchizedek is? This is what he said of Abraham:
Genesis 14:
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
19 He blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand He gave him a tenth of all.

Do you see what's going on there? How do you even fathom Abraham is not saved.

How does Jacob wrestle with Jesus, if he's not saved?

How can David say "The Lord is my shepherd" if he is not saved?

Do you not know what the name Joshua means? It means Jehovah Is Salavation

If you asked Abraham if he was saved he would respond..."I met Jesus coming back from the war of the kings and he served me "The Lod's Supper" before Jesus ever came into the world!

So yes...when Jesus opened their understanding on the road to Emmaus...He probably told them about that.