Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short

Interplanner

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re: understanding new revelation
Doug does have a point about not understanding (Lk 9:45). But even before saying that, Peter did confess Jesus as Christ. The question would be whether it was Judaism's Christ or the new one. The reason for not telling anyone about it seems to be to allow people to make the transition from the Davidic conqueror/restorer to the suffering Servant (9:22). But where did that come from? Isaiah 53. Atonement from sin and justification by another person's experience are mentioned. Pretty strong stuff.

We should not underestimate their understanding of the Gen 3 Seed. They knew it was a person, and they knew there would be mortal injury. That does narrow things down quite a bit, as needed at that time.

--Inter
 
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Douggg

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You need to historically and biblically travel back, and see what Abraham saw, from afar, and sought to enter because he confessed he was a stranger and pilgrim -heading for the City of God in heaven, because he saw it, afar off.

Abraham may have seen his future but he was not saved in his day. And the proof is in the story of Lazurus and the rich man.

Lazurus was not in heaven, but Abraham's bosom. And Abraham was there as well. So was Lazurus saved also - before Jesus having died for his sins and without Lazurus having accepted it?

No one is saved apart from accepting the gospel.

In his life, Abraham did not preach the gospel. It was not understood by anyone in the OT that the messiah, son of David, king of Israel, would die on a cross for the propitiation of their sins.

Noah is the great grandson of Enoch, who is saved indeed, and in Eden above, and is glorified. Enoch's son, Methusaleh, Noah's grandfather, preached righteousness and repentance with Noah for 120 years, and they knew what God's plan was for earth. Methusaleh only died one week before the flood, and then it came.
Enoch did not preach Jesus dying on the cross, and being in the grave 3 days/nights, and being resurrected on the 3rd day, for which there is no other name given unto man which we must be saved.

It is only you who is puzzled by unbelief and ignorance of the biblical doctrine and historical writings of the Patriarchs, themselves, and you are projecting your own ignorance upon those who indeed knew they were "saved" by the promised redeemer, and were on their way to the City of God in heaven, which Adam got cast down and out of and ceased to multiply to build that city up by, with his own seed coming forth as the sons of God.
The were not saved, until after Jesus died on the cross... and they accepted his death on the cross for propitiation for their sins. Abraham has hopes in a redeemer, but until Jesus actually went through with the crucifixion, Abraham was not saved - and that Abraham accepted the gospel.

Malachi 2:15; "He made them one because he sought sons of God/godly seed";
Haggai 2,... so as to build the Temple of YHWH not made with hands;
Adam is the first defiled, ruined temple; Israel is the name of the second glorified temple which is in the building up, of, by adoption from the Adam seed into the New Man name, to be built up as a temple not made with hands, "for the Glory" to indwell:
That is what Adam lost and what the New Man is come as Kinsman/Redeemer to do. YHWH repeatedly states in the Tenach that He is the Redeemer/Kinsman of Israel, whose name as Kinsman/Redeemer is Israel [Isaiah 49], which name He invoked over Jacob as the sign of the adoption into that New Man name, and thereby, into the building of God, not made with hands.
That doesn't mean anyone was saved back then because Jesus had not gone through with the crucifixion; and there is nothing in those passages of
God himself entering this world, taking on the flesh of man, to die on a cross for propitiation of sins - and that we must accept it, in order to be saved.


Doug
 
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ebedmelech

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re: understanding new revelation
Doug does have a point about not understanding (Lk 9:45). But even before saying that, Peter did confess Jesus as Christ. The question would be whether it was Judaism's Christ or the new one. The reason for not telling anyone about it seems to be to allow people to make the transition from the Davidic conqueror/restorer to the suffering Servant (9:22). But where did that come from? Isaiah 53. Atonement from sin and justification by another person's experience are mentioned. Pretty strong stuff.

We should not underestimate their understanding of the Gen 3 Seed. They knew it was a person, and they knew there would be mortal injury. That does narrow things down quite a bit, as needed at that time.

--Inter
No Inter, actually the only point would be how wrong the people had interpreted scripture. They were taught by the Pharisees and scirbes, and therefore their understanding was not very good.

Why do you think Paul spent so much time teaching salvation was not by the works of the law? They had a totally wrong view of salvation!

Yeshuasavedme brought up a very good point which Doug denies...Jesus was called (by John The Baptist) "The Lamb Of God slain from the foundations of the world"! Why was that? It was because Christ was the salvation of all.

God saved the people of the OT by the types and shadows of Christ because that's what they pointed to.

The only thing these OT saints didn't have is their ultimate salvation, which is the resurrection....however they were saved.

Listen to what Peter states of David at Pentecost:
Acts 2:25-28
25 For David says of Him,‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’



That quote is in Psalms 16! This is David prophesying of Jesus resurrection, as well as expressing his hope of his own resurrection.

How can you read that and not KNOW David was saved???? Also...I think we've derailed the thread. This portion is soteriology. That's where it should continue.
 
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Douggg

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Yeshuasavedme brought up a very good point which Doug denies...Jesus was called (by John The Baptist) "The Lamb Of God slain from the foundations of the world"! Why was that? It was because Christ was the salvation of all.

That same John had doubts that Jesus was the messiah because afterward while he was in prison he sent word to the disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one, or should they wait for another.

In John 1, John was the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit, who was the one actually making the declaration.

John 1:
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And at the time, no one understood what that meant, that Jesus would die on the cross for the propitiation of our sins.


Doug
 
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yeshuasavedme

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That same John had doubts that Jesus was the messiah because afterward while he was in prison he sent word to the disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one, or should they wait for another.

In John 1, John was the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit, who was the one actually making the declaration.

And at the time, no one understood what that meant, that Jesus would die on the cross for the propitiation of our sins.


Doug
You have no authority to speak for those who are now long dead.
When God blinded the eyes, they were blind. When God opened the eyes, they were open.
John knew his purpose from the cradle; they talked about it in his family all the years he was growing up, and he knew the purpose his cousin was born for, because his mom and Mary were good friends, besides being cousins; but in a moment of despondency, because he did not know all the details, he sent to ask, "Are you He"?
Jesus comforted him, and John was comforted, and did not doubt.
 
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Interplanner

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re secret kept by God
also I hope Doug is not confusing this with the mystery-that-is-no-longer-a-mystery. It wasn't the Gospel exactly. It was how the nations would be able to come into an Israel and be part of it it. the average person practicing Judaism could not figure how this could be without all the particulars of the law, circumcision, dietary, sabbaths, etc.

--Inter
 
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ebedmelech

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That same John had doubts that Jesus was the messiah because afterward while he was in prison he sent word to the disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one, or should they wait for another.

In John 1, John was the mouthpiece for the Holy Spirit, who was the one actually making the declaration.

And at the time, no one understood what that meant, that Jesus would die on the cross for the propitiation of our sins.


Doug
Doug that makes no point at all. Elijah had just demonstrated God's power before the prophets of Baal. Later when Jezebel threatens his life, he's fearful.

All what you're saying proves, is John is just like you and I! John had become shaken in his faith. Jesus had to send him a message to confirm that.

We see that in the apostles and Jesus was right there with them...so what's the point?
 
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ebedmelech

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David and Daniel are promised the Resurrection, long before Christ.
now, that said, I feel that they DID accept Him, after their death.

Christ went somewhere for those three days and three nights,
and many believed.
That's right. But that's not the issue. The issue...is were OT saints saved?

Why would God declare OT saints to be righteous if they weren't?

Why would Paul argue that Abraham was "justified by faith" and declared righteous if he wasn't saved.

That is the issue.

The types and shadows that God gave them pointed to Christ! God honored their faith in those things that He gave them that pointed to Christ.

Habakuk, an OT prophet makes the point:
Habakuk 2:4:
4 “Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

Whether OT or NT God honors faith!

God spoke the same things to them that He speaks to us. Those saints in the OT looked forward to the promised Messiah in faith.

They were just as saved as we are now. The only difference is they were before the cross, we are after the cross.
 
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Douggg

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You have no authority to speak for those who are now long dead.
When God blinded the eyes, they were blind. When God opened the eyes, they were open.
John knew his purpose from the cradle; they talked about it in his family all the years he was growing up, and he knew the purpose his cousin was born for, because his mom and Mary were good friends, besides being cousins; but in a moment of despondency, because he did not know all the details, he sent to ask, "Are you He"?
Jesus comforted him, and John was comforted, and did not doubt.

John did not preach the gospel. John taught repentance. The Jews (Judaism) preach repentance also, but they are not saved.

John taught Christ, meaning messiah King of Israel. But John did not preach Christ to die on the cross for the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

John's understanding of the messiah is that he would be the promised great King of Israel, who would restore the kingdom of Israel; that is, being independent of occupation control by gentile nations.

John's uncertainty as to whether Jesus was the messiah was in the context of what John and the disciples knew at the time about the role of the messiah. They did not know that the major role of the messiah was to die for the sins of mankind.

When John, in prison, heard about what Jesus was doing, going about the countryside, healing the sick, the lame, the blind - that did not correspond to what John thought the messiah should be doing in order to overthrow the Roman occupation to restore the Kingdom of Israel as an independent state. Which is why John had uncertainty as to whether Jesus was messiah or should they expect another.

You also need to fix your signature regarding John the baptist to include the entire message...

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

John the Baptist was not saved prior to the Jesus dying on the cross. John the Baptist is saved and in heaven because he accepted the gospel when Jesus descended into hell and preached the gospel setting the captives free, making captivity captive.

The issue is not if John the Baptist is saved, or Abraham saved, but when did they hear the gospel and accept it - so that they are saved.

Doug
 
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Douggg

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That's right. But that's not the issue. The issue...is were OT saints saved?

No, the issue is whether they were saved in their day or some other time.
Why would God declare OT saints to be righteous if they weren't?
Being righteous does not equate to being saved because a saved person has the "perfect" righteousness of Christ imputed on to them.

Why would Paul argue that Abraham was "justified by faith" and declared righteous if he wasn't saved.
Paul did not argue that Abraham in his day was "perfectly" righteous.

God spoke the same things to them that He speaks to us. Those saints in the OT looked forward to the promised Messiah in faith.
Likewise, the Jew of Judaism today are looking forward to the promised Messiah in faith - but they have not received the gospel, and are not saved.

Doug
 
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Douggg

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re secret kept by God
also I hope Doug is not confusing this with the mystery-that-is-no-longer-a-mystery. It wasn't the Gospel exactly. It was how the nations would be able to come into an Israel and be part of it it. the average person practicing Judaism could not figure how this could be without all the particulars of the law, circumcision, dietary, sabbaths, etc.
--Inter

No, I am not confused over it being the gospel being what was kept a secret.

1Corinthians2
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
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ebedmelech

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The issue is not if John the Baptist is saved, or Abraham saved, but when did they hear the gospel and accept it - so that they are saved.

Doug
Indeed they were. Many even spoke of God's salvation:

As Israel sang:
Exodus 15:2
2 “The Lord is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father’s God, and I will extol Him.


Hannah - 1 Samuel 2:1
Then Hannah prayed and said,“My heart exults in the Lord; My horn is exalted in the Lord, My mouth speaks boldly against my enemies, Because I rejoice in Your salvation.


David - 2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.


Job - Job 13:16:
“This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.


David - Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the defense of my life; Whom shall I dread?


David - Psalm 40:16
16 Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, “The Lord be magnified!”


These saints speak of present salvation, and you're saying they were not saved?


Do a study on "salvation" in the OT.


 
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Choose Wisely

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Manasseh_;62228153]

The house of Judah has rejected Christ as Messiah , they don't keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus as the SAINTS described in Revelation do...........

The House of Israel will come to know Jesus as Messiah. There are 144000 first fruits to prove it.



you're the one who should be using common sense............if you reject Christ you certainly wouldn't have his testimony and you wouldn't be saying that someone dead (Elijah) is going to be one of God's 2 servants, his witnesses...............
I was unaware that Elijah had died. I thought he went to heaven and had not died. It is only appointed once for a man to die. I guess one of us has to be wrong.

they are SAINTS, of the body of Christ........they are raised in the first resurrection at the end of tribulation according to Revelation and the few verses about the 2 witnesses do NOT GIVE any names to begin with, again as usual with pretrib you ASSUME this by human reasoning NOT SCRIPTURE................Elijah is in his grave awaiting the first resurrection , scripture never mentions or teaches that he is raised before the appointed time of the first resurrection (last day)
Dead???????? Maybe you should try the King James version. Maybe you should tell the Jews not to set a place for him at Passover.

your answers only show further how pretrib is part of the bigger lie of satan's false dispensational deception

Your answers explain a small piece of your confusion. I suggest you start watching and waiting.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Abraham may have seen his future but he was not saved in his day. And the proof is in the story of Lazurus and the rich man.

Lazurus was not in heaven, but Abraham's bosom. And Abraham was there as well. So was Lazurus saved also - before Jesus having died for his sins and without Lazurus having accepted it?



Doug
methinks your gospel has been made into a formula and an idol, formed from your mind that excludes all the OT Saints of all the ages in all the world from the promise of redemption and restoration back to Paradise, from whence Adam was cast down and out of, at the fall.
You have a basic misunderstanding of what death is, in all its stages, as it is biblically defined for us.
The first death is separation from the Unseen Glory above, which departed from Adam when he disobeyed and became, at that moment, a vain creation, a ruined temple, and useless for the purpose of his creation as a son of God made for the Glory.

Before that death was made an end of by the "Acceptable Atonement" of the Redeemer/Kinsman, those righteous saints who were saved by hope in the promise whose bodies died in that hope, went to wait in Sheol below, in comfort and in rest, in a separate place from the unrighteous souls who departed and who still wait there for their day of resurrection in their old man bodies, minus their Adam spirit, and their judgment. They are then cast into the LAke of Fire, soul in body, forever, minus the Adam spirit, and are then, undying worms who will never be changed/morphosed into the image of the Son of God -it will be too late.


First death is ended for all who receive and all who had received the promise of the redemption by the promised Seed of the Woman, and it ended on the cross. Jesus departed his body and took the sins laid on His soul to Sheol below, dumped them on Azazel, and declared the First Death ended for all the righteous souls who waited in comfort in Sheol, and took them to Paradise above, to await their promised adoption bodies which they will receive at the same time the living saints receive them, at the rapture -except for the first of firstfruits whom Jesus raised from the dead, in their bodies which came out of their graves at His resurrection, and He ascended with them, mid-morning, to the temple in heaven, to offer them there, before the Glory, with Himself.

But God made exceptions: Enoch did not die and is translated to glory in the New Man body and is in Eden above, and is with the Watcher angels, ruling over them, there.

Elijah has not died, and is in Eden above and is returning to preach, and to be killed, with Moses. Both Enoch and Moses will then be resurrected and regenerated, ascend to glory, and be glorified as all the righteous saints are to be.



Abraham was saved. Abel was saved. Noah was saved. David was saved. Shem was saved. Job was saved. Even Adam was saved by the hope of the promised Seed of the Woman, who would die and make an end of sin, death, and corruption, and restore the dominion which Adam sold into sin, death, and corruption.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Enoch 22:
A Visit to Sheol

5I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit.
6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?"
7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men."
8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?"
9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.


10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime.

11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.

12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners.
13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence."
14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."
 
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Douggg

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methinks your gospel has been made into a formula and an idol, formed from your mind that excludes all the OT Saints of all the ages in all the world from the promise of redemption and restoration back to Paradise, from whence Adam was cast down and out of, at the fall.

That's what the Jews (Judaism) teach and believe today, and since the time of Moses. But the Jews (Judaism) are not saved because they have not embraced the gospel which theLord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

The gospel I embrace and proselytize is the same as the one Paul did in Galatians, chapter 1. I do not proselytize that there is any way to be saved outside of the gospel which is the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

There is no other way to be saved. Your screen-name is Yeshuasavedme.

So don't be hypocritical and say in former times there was another way to be saved.

I have never heard of anyone being accused of making the gospel an idol, so you are really reaching to the depths, as you try to justify your argument. I stand on the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified... and you are having a problem with that? That makes me an idol worshiper? :doh:


Doug
 
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Douggg

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Indeed they were. Many even spoke of God's salvation:

As Israel sang:
Exodus 15:2
2 “The Lord is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father’s God, and I will extol Him.


Hannah - 1 Samuel 2:1
Then Hannah prayed and said,“My heart exults in the Lord; My horn is exalted in the Lord, My mouth speaks boldly against my enemies,Because I rejoice in Your salvation.


David - 2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.


Job - Job 13:16:
“This also will be my salvation, For a godless man may not come before His presence.


David - Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the defense of my life; Whom shall I dread?


David - Psalm 40:16
16 Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;Let those who love Your salvation say continually, “The Lord be magnified!”


These saints speak of present salvation, and you're saying they were not saved?


Do a study on "salvation" in the OT.



You can't do a word search on "salvation" and hope to win this argument, because there is no way to be "saved" outside of the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

If you were to have had 4000 posts arguing and learning about Judaism at their websites like I did for over 8 years, you would find that they have a concept of salvation also as it is found in their scriptures (the Tanach), which we call the old testament. And salvation in those passages pertain to salvation from physical death in this world.

Doug
 
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yeshuasavedme

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That's what the Jews (Judaism) teach and believe today, and since the time of Moses. But the Jews (Judaism) are not saved because they have not embraced the gospel which theLord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

The gospel I embrace and proselytize is the same as the one Paul did in Galatians, chapter 1. I do not proselytize that there is any way to be saved outside of the gospel which is the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

There is no other way to be saved. Your screen-name is Yeshuasavedme.

So don't be hypocritical and say in former times there was another way to be saved.

I have never heard of anyone being accused of making the gospel an idol, so you are really reaching to the depths, as you try to justify your argument. I stand on the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified... and you are having a problem with that? That makes me an idol worshiper? :doh:


Doug


Methinks your gospel is not the gospel, but you have a formula that you call your gospel, which does not agree with the Word of God.
The Redeemer was promised at the fall. Redeemer also means "Kinsman", and a kinsman must redeem what was sold.
I have written plenty to show that history and the Writings do not agree with what you espouse, but I do not think you read what we write, for others have shown you from the Scriptures again, and again that you err.

Salvation by the Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world is the One Way God ordained for all men to be saved for all time, out of Adam and into the New Man name, by adoption into His one Living Spirit and then, into His New Man body image.

Your gospel -little g- refuses to look at the Word and to see that salvation is the same for all born in Adam by the Acceptable Sacrifice -in due season- which the Law rehearsed and was the Living Oracle of.

Some men are blinded. Some men see.
Some men were blinded. Some men did see.
You impose a blindness upon all the seed of Adam, from the beginning, when history and evidences of many testimonies and of the Word prove you in error, as Jesus said.

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam wrote about the one salvation which the righteous would have, in the Name of the Son of Man, whom Enoch saw in heaven, hidden, in secret, whose name was secret, and who was God, and who was with God; who would come; die; rise; ascend; be glorified; and raise the saints to dwell with Him in immortal flesh, regenerated elements of their own bodies, forever.


You need to stop claiming this Gospel was not known. Rather some men were blinded, but others wrote of it, and did see, and Jesus preached from Enoch about Himself, and so did Paul do the same, that is, preach about Jesus the Christ, from Enoch's writings.


methinks your gospel has been made into a formula and an idol, formed from your mind that excludes all the OT Saints of all the ages in all the world from the promise of redemption and restoration back to Paradise, from whence Adam was cast down and out of, at the fall.
You have a basic misunderstanding of what death is, in all its stages, as it is biblically defined for us.
The first death is separation from the Unseen Glory above, which departed from Adam when he disobeyed and became, at that moment, a vain creation, a ruined temple, and useless for the purpose of his creation as a son of God made for the Glory.

Before that death was made an end of by the "Acceptable Atonement" of the Redeemer/Kinsman, those righteous saints who were saved by hope in the promise whose bodies died in that hope, went to wait in Sheol below, in comfort and in rest, in a separate place from the unrighteous souls who departed and who still wait there for their day of resurrection in their old man bodies, minus their Adam spirit, and their judgment. They are then cast into the LAke of Fire, soul in body, forever, minus the Adam spirit, and are then, undying worms who will never be changed/morphosed into the image of the Son of God -it will be too late.


First death is ended for all who receive and all who had received the promise of the redemption by the promised Seed of the Woman, and it ended on the cross. Jesus departed his body and took the sins laid on His soul to Sheol below, dumped them on Azazel, and declared the First Death ended for all the righteous souls who waited in comfort in Sheol, and took them to Paradise above, to await their promised adoption bodies which they will receive at the same time the living saints receive them, at the rapture -except for the first of firstfruits whom Jesus raised from the dead, in their bodies which came out of their graves at His resurrection, and He ascended with them, mid-morning, to the temple in heaven, to offer them there, before the Glory, with Himself.

But God made exceptions: Enoch did not die and is translated to glory in the New Man body and is in Eden above, and is with the Watcher angels, ruling over them, there.

Elijah has not died, and is in Eden above and is returning to preach, and to be killed, with Moses. Both Enoch and Moses will then be resurrected and regenerated, ascend to glory, and be glorified as all the righteous saints are to be.



Abraham was saved. Abel was saved. Noah was saved. David was saved. Shem was saved. Job was saved. Even Adam was saved by the hope of the promised Seed of the Woman, who would die and make an end of sin, death, and corruption, and restore the dominion which Adam sold into sin, death, and corruption.
 
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ebedmelech

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You can't do a word search on "salvation" and hope to win this argument, because there is no way to be "saved" outside of the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified.

If you were to have had 4000 posts arguing and learning about Judaism at their websites like I did for over 8 years, you would find that they have a concept of salvation also as it is found in their scriptures (the Tanach), which we call the old testament. And salvation in those passages pertain to salvation from physical death in this world.

Doug
This is not about salvation according to Judaism....it's about salvation according to the bible.

Jesus testified to how far Judaism had strayed from the Law, so why would I do that?

This is about whether the OT saints where saved. The scripture affrims that they were, and you're saying none of them were saved.

That's the issue, not Judaism.

So I'll stand to the OT saints testifying of their own salvation, in the scriptures. Scripture is my authority, not Judaism.
 
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