Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short

[Douggg]

The chapter isn't focusing on salvation...it's focusing on faith. All those listed were already saved and the great things they accomplished, were done through faith in God. That's the point.

What? They weren't already saved. No-one is saved but by the blood of Christ and his resurrection.

Doug

 

[ebedmelech]

"you look future for a past event" You can't just say it over and over to make it true. The Mt. of Olives has not been split, the physical evidence is there for anyone to see. The AOD that signifies the beginning of the great tribulation has not be setup to be worshiped, because that generation will witness Jesus's return. Who will be returning to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, who at that future time will be welcoming him with open arms as their King and Savior.

Again, I hold the "Anytime Rapture" view which is not a secret rapture view.

Doug

That's fine with me Doug. I think I made my point, you think you've made yours.

The "day" will reveal it...and we will know.

You say it's future. But I make this point...Jesus said to the disciples:
“Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”.

Now that referred to the destruction of the temple. The AOD...Luke lays it out so we know what that is. He says "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know her desolation is near." (Luke speaks to Gentile believers).
Now...Rome did all of that in 70 A.D. ... just as Jesus said. So are you saying you look for them to do it again???

If you've never read Josephus on this war, you might ought to do that. This was what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24. Tacitus as well.

So no...just saying it doesn't make it so...but seeing it happened already, I guess that's a matter of reading the scriptures rightly.

I understand you believe you have. I have also...and I continue to evaluate my position. Because I know I can miss something.

 

[ebedmelech]

What? They weren't already saved. No-one is saved but by the blood of Christ and his resurrection.

Doug

Really? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS"...Romans 4

Try that...righteousness is justification...you're saved!

More than that...if everyone in Hebrews 11 are not saved...how are they believing God to accomplis what they did? Have you even read that?

Are you saying Abraham, Moses, David, Gideon, Samson, etc, were not saved???

 

[Bro in Christ]

No.

The "and all these" refers to EVERY statement about each person named in Hebrews 11. So that is not what's in view.

Hebrews 11 is is simply making the point that we should have faith in God...PERIOD! It is not addressing salvation. Salvation was summed up in Hebrews 10.

You're not holding context. Hebrews 11:1, 2:
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

After that opening, the writer goes on to name the several OT Saints that are cited for having faith in various situations.

The chapter isn't focusing on salvation...it's focusing on faith. All those listed were already saved and the great things they accomplished, were done through faith in God. That's the point.

Lastly, the last two verses are focusing on heaven...not salvation:
Hebrews 11:39, 40:
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

We are "made perfect" when we receive our glorified bodies!

Without faith in a promise from God does one have salvation. Romans 5:2 adds detail

All these people mentioned had a quality of faith but as verse 39-40 states they did not receive the better promise thus the question that should be asked is WHAT is different .... Here is one ... Eternal life 1 jn 5:11-14... OT Luke 18:18 which had to wait. Till there resurrection Dan 12:2-12

 

[ebedmelech]

Without faith in a promise from God does one have salvation. Romans 5:2 adds detail

All these people mentioned had a quality of faith but as verse 39-40 states they did not receive the better promise thus the question that should be asked is WHAT is different .... Here is one ... Eternal life 1 jn 5:11-14... OT Luke 18:18 which had to wait. Till there resurrection Dan 12:2-12

Brother...stop trying to be right and just acknowledge what is plainly there in the passage.

Hebrews is NOT speaking to saving faith...it's speaks to having faith in God. It's plain, and it's there.

If you want to think you're right on this passage...go right ahead but that doesn't change it.

You're bringing things into this passage that it doesn't even address because it's clear it doesn't address salvation.

Before you keep "digging a hole" read the chapter. Every person named is a saved person. Simply go back and read what the scripture says.
Look at these... from Hebrews 11:

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous,

Abel is said to be righteous...so he's saved!

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Enoch is "pleasing to God...he's saved!

7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Noah..."the heir of righteousness"...he's saved!

How much more do you need?

 

[Bro in Christ]

Them being saved is understood... As we are .. But what is better than they?

 

[Douggg]

Really? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS"...Romans 4

Try that...righteousness is justification...you're saved!

More than that...if everyone in Hebrews 11 are not saved...how are they believing God to accomplis what they did? Have you even read that?

Are you saying Abraham, Moses, David, Gideon, Samson, etc, were not saved???

There were many "righteous" people in the old testament. But none of them was declared "perfectly righteous". When a person is saved, Jesus's "perfect righteousness" is imputed unto us.

From Adam, Moses, David, Gideon, Samson, Aaron, John the Baptist, etc, 100% not a one of the them was saved.... until the gospel message of Jesus's death and resurrection for propitiation of our sins was preached to them and they accepted it.

And they didn't hear the gospel until Jesus went into hades, the place of the dead, and preached the gospel and set the captives free - them that had been waiting there, including Abraham . They weren't in torment, but a place of comfort - but it wasn't heaven.


Doug

 

[Bro in Christ]

Perfectly... Romans 3:10-11 please

 

[ebedmelech]

There were many "righteous" people in the old testament. But none of them was declared "perfectly righteous". When a person is saved, Jesus's "perfect righteousness" is imputed unto us.

From Adam, Moses, David, Gideon, Samson, Aaron, John the Baptist, etc, 100% not a one of the them was saved.... until the gospel message of Jesus's death and resurrection for propitiation of our sins was preached to them and they accepted it.

And they didn't hear the gospel until Jesus went into hades, the place of the dead, and preached the gospel and set the captives free - them that had been waiting there, including Abraham . They weren't in torment, but a place of comfort - but it wasn't heaven.


Doug

Doug...that is just terribly poor understanding of scripture.

Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15, the "proto-evangel". You and "Bro in Christ really need to READ the scripture and let it say what it says.

In Romans 4, the argument is salvation. Paul clearly tells us Abraham was SAVED! Read it:
Romans 4:4
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now just in case you have a doubt, he goes on to tell you David what David said in the Psalms 32:1:
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account

Jesus testified that John the Baptist was saved:
Matthew 11:11
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now...I can't even fathom you saying Moses was not saved and He, and Elijah are with Jesus on "The Mount of Transfiguration".

Lastly do you guys even acknowledge Hebrews??? Hebrews is making the case that The tabernacle and everything in it looked forward to Christ.

I really don't believe were speaking about this!!!

What did Jesus mean when He said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad"?

If you can't see the people in listed in Hebrews 11 are saved...well...I'm just done.

I really don't believe we're discussing this...JUST WOW!

 

[Douggg]

Doug...that is just terribly poor understanding of scripture.

Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15, the "proto-evangel". You and "Bro in Christ really need to READ the scripture and let it say what it says.

In Romans 4, the argument is salvation. Paul clearly tells us Abraham was SAVED! Read it:
Romans 4:4
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now just in case you have a doubt, he goes on to tell you David what David said in the Psalms 32:1:
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account

Jesus testified that John the Baptist was saved:
Matthew 11:11
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Now...I can't even fathom you saying Moses was not saved and He, and Elijah are with Jesus on "The Mount of Transfiguration".

Lastly do you guys even acknowledge Hebrews??? Hebrews is making the case that The tabernacle and everything in it looked forward to Christ.

I really don't believe were speaking about this!!!

What did Jesus mean when He said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad"?

If you can't see the people in listed in Hebrews 11 are saved...well...I'm just done.

I really don't believe we're discussing this...JUST WOW!

Abraham was declared to be righteous - not saved.

You wrote - "What did Jesus mean when He said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad"?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Regrading Psalms 32:1, Jesus's shed blood washes away our sins, the propitiation of sins, as though they never happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz8T9jzQYZc

 

[Interplanner]

re: intermediate state
Doug, are you trying to develop the theme of an intermediate state for those believers in the OT, as is mentioned in 1 Pet 3? I can't tell from what you've said. I can allow you some latitude on that, athough Peter is the only one to give it any ink.

Otherwise, EbedM is quite right: we are missing the apostles' declarations about the OT if we don't realize that people who were justified by faith were saved. Abraham and David being the most frequent examples of Paul (in fact, son of David followers should note that the only thing Paul mentions about David is that his sins were not reckoned to him by faith; nothing about a future kingdom).

--Inter

 

[Douggg]

re: intermediate state
Doug, are you trying to develop the theme of an intermediate state for those believers in the OT, as is mentioned in 1 Pet 3? I can't tell from what you've said. I can allow you some latitude on that, athough Peter is the only one to give it any ink.

Otherwise, EbedM is quite right: we are missing the apostles' declarations about the OT if we don't realize that people who were justified by faith were saved. Abraham and David being the most frequent examples of Paul (in fact, son of David followers should note that the only thing Paul mentions about David is that his sins were not reckoned to him by faith; nothing about a future kingdom).

--Inter

4000 years ago to Abraham's time, what washed away Abraham's sins as though they never happened? Same question about David.

No-one was, is, or shall be saved except by the shed blood of Jesus. To say otherwise is to say there is another way to salvation than by Christ.

Doug

 

[Interplanner]

They were saved by Christ, but they didn't call it that yet. They called it the Seed of the Woman and his sacrifice. Then perhaps it became the Seed of Abraham. By the end of Genesis there is the figure Shiloh, and in the Davidic kingdom years, the Psalms mention Messiah and the other Lord of Ps 110, who was a Melchizedekian priest for ever. The picture was taking shape.

I think by the time a person performed their 2nd sin offering per Leviticus they might have started to realize that nothing finite would ever do the job. (Heb.10:1)

--Inter

 

[ebedmelech]

Abraham was declared to be righteous - not saved.

You wrote - "What did Jesus mean when He said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad"?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Regrading Psalms 32:1, Jesus's shed blood washes away our sins, the propitiation of sins, as though they never happened.

I'm not believing this!!! Doug...one doesn't need a video on this!!! The scriptures are pretty clear.

The day of Pentecost is after the resurrection....we know after Christ is one thing. What I don't understand is you don't make the connection that all those things of the OT pointed to Christ. They were types and shadows that looked to the Messiah.

Have you ever read Hebrews 9? Do you not know that having faith in what God said in the Old Covenant was considered salvation because it looked forward to Christ?

Do you forget that Abraham paid tithes to Jesus as Melchizedek?

Listen to Jesus:
John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Listen to Paul:
Romans 4:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you&#8221 in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Abraham was saved the day he believed God. How can he be "the father of us all", and not be saved.

Even more than that I just don't believe you don't know being "declared righteous" is salvation.

Hearing this from you is is just mind boggling to me!

 

[Douggg]

They were saved by Christ, but they didn't call it that yet. They called it the Seed of the Woman and his sacrifice. Then perhaps it became the Seed of Abraham. By the end of Genesis there is the figure Shiloh, and in the Davidic kingdom years, the Psalms mention Messiah and the other Lord of Ps 110, who was a Melchizedekian priest for ever. The picture was taking shape.

I think by the time a person performed their 2nd sin offering per Leviticus they might have started to realize that nothing finite would ever do the job. (Heb.10:1)

--Inter

No one was saved until Jesus actually died on the cross. Up until then there was a promise, a hope of redemption, but until Jesus actually died and resurrected there was no act by which man could be saved.

The entire future existence of man was held in the balance in the garden of Gethsemane when Jesus wrestled with what he was sent to do.

Furthermore, the gospel, the message of salvation that the messiah would die for the sins of mankind to redeem us from the power of sin and eternal separation from God was kept a secret from anyone's understanding until after the resurrection.

It was after the resurrection that Christianity, the religion actually began, in Luke 24:44-47.

Doug

 

[Douggg]

I'm not believing this!!! Doug...one doesn't need a video on this!!! The scriptures are pretty clear.

The day of Pentecost is after the resurrection....we know after Christ is one thing. What I don't understand is you don't make the connection that all those things of the OT pointed to Christ. They were types and shadows that looked to the Messiah.

Have you ever read Hebrews 9? Do you not know that having faith in what God said in the Old Covenant was considered salvation because it looked forward to Christ?

Do you forget that Abraham paid tithes to Jesus as Melchizedek?

Listen to Jesus:
John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Listen to Paul:
Romans 4:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you&#8221 in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Abraham was saved the day he believed God. How can he be "the father of us all", and not be saved.

Even more than that I just don't believe you don't know being "declared righteous" is salvation.

Hearing this from you is is just mind boggling to me!

There were many righteous persons in the old testament. But none of them were declared "perfectly righteous". Do you think that Abraham's righteousness equates to the perfect righteousness of Christ? Are you saved by having Abraham's righteousness imputed unto you? Do you think in Abraham there was salvation?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[ebedmelech]

There were many righteous persons in the old testament. But none of them were declared "perfectly righteous". Do you think that Abraham's righteousness equates to the perfect righteousness of Christ? Are you saved by having Abraham's righteousness imputed unto you?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Doug

Ok...let's try this:

This is Paul clearly telling you the OT saints were looking to Jesus:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4:
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Do you not know that it was Jesus with the two angels that came and told Abraham that Sarah would have a son in Genesis 18?

Now we know they weren't all saved but many were. Jesus appeared to Joshua in Joshua 5:13-15

Jesus appeared to Gideon in Judges 6:11.

Do you not KNOW that everytime you read "the angel of the Lord" in the OT that's Jesus?

Do you not know Moses was a type of Christ? He was the mediator of the Old Covenant. He went into Gods went into God's presence...and you're saying he was not saved??

How about Job's belief in the resurrection? :
Job 19:25-27:
25 “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

I guess you just cant see it. But I really encourage you to reconsider this belief of yours. Even when I was taught the dispensational view I was taught that OT saints were saved by faith in God's promise of the Messiah.

 

[Douggg]

Ok...let's try this:

This is Paul clearly telling you the OT saints were looking to Jesus:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4:
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Do you not know that it was Jesus with the two angels that came and told Abraham that Sarah would have a son in Genesis 18?

Now we know they weren't all saved but many were. Jesus appeared to Joshua in Joshua 5:13-15

Jesus appeared to Gideon in Judges 6:11.

Do you not KNOW that everytime you read "the angel of the Lord" in the OT that's Jesus?

Do you not know Moses was a type of Christ? He was the mediator of the Old Covenant. He went into Gods went into God's presence...and you're saying he was not saved??

How about Job's belief in the resurrection? :
Job 19:25-27:
25 “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

I guess you just cant see it. But I really encourage you to reconsider this belief of yours. Even when I was taught the dispensational view I was taught that OT saints were saved by faith in God's promise of the Messiah.

Why are you arguing against the gospel message that a person must believe and embrace the death and resurrection of Christ for atonement, and propitiation of sins in order to be saved?

There are no other ways. Abraham, Moses, Job, etc. No-one is saved except by believing in the gospel of Jesus's death and resurrection.

You cannot change this verse.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[ebedmelech]

Why are you arguing against the gospel message that a person must believe and embrace the death and resurrection of Christ for atonement, and propitiation of sins in order to be saved?

There are no other ways. Abraham, Moses, Job, etc. No-one is saved except by believing in the gospel of Jesus's death and resurrection.

You cannot change this verse.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I'm not arguing against anything.

What's going on is you don't realize Jesus is who the OT saints looked too.

You want to acknowledge Acts 4:12...and then turn around and deny what Jesus said of the salvation of both Abraham and John the Baptist, as well as Moses. ALL OF THEM WERE SAVED.

I really hope one day you learn that.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not arguing against anything.

What's going on is you don't realize Jesus is who the OT saints looked too.

You want to acknowledge Acts 4:12...and then turn around and deny what Jesus said of the salvation of both Abraham and John the Baptist, as well as Moses. ALL OF THEM WERE SAVED.

I really hope one day you learn that.

What you are not getting is that Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist were not saved back in their day when they were alive - because Jesus had not died for their sins back then. And besides that they did not even know that the messiah would die for their sins as being the means of their redemption, because that was kept a secret from understanding until after the resurrection.

It wasn't until after Jesus had died on the cross and descended into hell (hades) and preached the gospel to them that they were saved by believing and embracing it. As a result, their souls are all in heaven now, awaiting the rapture/resurrection.

No one was saved until after Jesus died on the cross. You are mixing up righteousness with salvation.

And as far as Abraham goes, this might as well be him singing in heaven, because it is by the precious blood of Jesus that he got there.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Pz8T9jzQYZc


Doug