Masons

[Harlin]

Hello,

What Pike is pointing out here about the blazing star is its history: He clearly prefaces the remarks about “Sirius,” “Anubis,” “Osiris,” “Isis,” “Hermes,” and “Mercury” with “Originally it represented. . . . . “

No, not at all. Pike is saying that originally it represented Sirius, Anubis, Mercury,etc. Before that he says that to give to the Blazing Star the meaning of the star that guided the Magi, is "comparatively modern".

He then goes on to discribe the meaning held by various other lodge "brethren", but reconfirms in the last statement that in our lodges we have already said the blazing Star represents Sirius, Anubis or Mercury, and that the Ancient English Brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun.

Pike clearly agrees with the "original" meaning as opposed to the "comparatively modern" one. You posting all those quotes doesn't change anything.

Magic is the science of the Ancient Magi: and the Christian religion, which has imposed silence on the lying oracles, and put an end to the prestiges of the false Gods, itself reveres those Magi who came from the East, guided by a Star, to adore the Saviour of the world in His cradle.

I personally find this quote somewhat of a snide remark against Christianity. It appears that Pike is stating that the same "Christians that imposed silence on the lying oracles and put an end to the prestiges of false Gods", then in turn revere the men of the East. It seems to me that perhaps Pike finds that a little hypocritical. I personally don't believe that Christianity revers the "Magi from the East", as Pike would suggest.

The study of this Pentagram could not but lead the Magi to the knowledge of the New Name which was about to raise itself above all names, and cause all creatures capable of adoration to bend the knee.

“Name above all names” and “every knee shall bow?” How is that a first commandment violation?

You need to re-read that statement if you think he is talking of Jesus. The name Jesus is NOT mentioned, it is presumed he is talking of him from the "Saviour of the world" comment in the first sentence, again the name of Jesus is not actually mentioned. However, if you read again, he is saying that the study of the Pentagram (Blazing Star) could not but, lead them to the knowledge of the New Name (the name of Jesus was not a new one) which was to raise "itself" (Jesus was exalted of the Father, not of Himself Phil 2) above all names.

Then, it causes all creatures "capable of adoration" to "bend the knee".

This is NOT talking of Jesus here, the Bible says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" Phil 2:10

Not just those capable, but every knee will bow.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[O.F.F.]

A foundation of religious principles does not make a religion. Nor would I ever suppose, as you seem to have done, that "the teachings of Christ" = Christianity. That would be to ignore the sum total of His actions. But since the principles that Pike has listed are not only found in Christianity, but in all religions, which was Pike’s principal point, wouldn’t it be more accurate to suggest that the teachings of Christ are at the heart and foundation of the religious beliefs found to be common to all religions?

Absolutely NOT!!! The heart and foundation of Jesus' teaching is the gospel. Remember what that is pastor? That would be the fact that God incarnate revealed Himself to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. It's about Him and Him crucified; He who gave His life as a ransom for many; He who knew no sin, but gave His life for the sin of the world.

It's about the imputed righteousness of the precious Lamb of God who takes away sin by trusting in Him and Him alone for salvation and eternal life. It's about He who died for us, and rose again, so that we would know that He is the one and only Creator (Colossians 1:16) and that we should die to "self" and live for Him.

That's the gospel pastor. And, in the end the gospel is all that matters. Where is the gospel found in the fundamental teachings of all religions? Where is the gospel found in the religious teachings of Freemasonry? Without the gospel all Muslim Masons, Hindu Masons, and other pagan Masons, as well as some professing "Christian" Masons who really don't know Christ will suffer eternal separation from God.

What are you doing to prevent that from happening? Coming here to defend the false teachings of the Masonic Lodge only perpetuates their condemnation and gives the impression that you may be one of them.

 

[Rev Wayne]

That's the gospel pastor. And, in the end the gospel is all that matters. Where is the gospel found in the fundamental teachings of all religions? Where is the gospel found in the religious teachings of Freemasonry?

Freemasonry is not the gospel, and the lodge is not the church. It's a fraternity where men gather for fellowship, and to learn valuable moral truths to apply to their lives. I have found those truths to be the same as many truths I find in Christianity. They are not the sum total of it, though, and they do not try to be. Your re-framing of my remarks does not represent anything that resembles the reality.

Absolutely NOT!!! The heart and foundation of Jesus' teaching is the gospel. Remember what that is pastor? That would be the fact that God incarnate revealed Himself to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. It's about Him and Him crucified; He who gave His life as a ransom for many; He who knew no sin, but gave His life for the sin of the world.

You are simply "talking past" what I have said. I am addressing the central core of His teachings, most specifically, the Sermon on the Mount. That is not my own opinion, that is a truth I have seen expressed by many a Christian, that the core of teachings taught in the Sermon on the Mount are the center of Chrisian teaching. Surely you don't think I just make this stuff up?

Many Christians believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a form of commentary on the Ten Commandments. To many, the Sermon on the Mount contains the central tenets of Christian discipleship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

The same is true of Masonry, in the case I presented. Once again, for your benefit:

• Love one another; (John 15:12)
• Forgive those who despitefully use you; (Luke 11:4)
• be pure of heart, meek, humble, contented; (Matt. 5:5, 5:8, Heb. 13:5)
• lay not up riches on earth, but in Heaven; (Matt. 6:20)
• submit to the powers lawfully over you; (Heb. 13:7)
• become like these little children, or ye cannot be saved, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven; (Mark 10:14-15)
• forgive the repentant; (Matt. 18:22)
• cast no stone at the sinner, if you too have sinned; (John 8:7)
• do unto others as ye would have others do unto you; (Matt. 7:12)
• whoever among you is first, should serve with the greatest
  devotion; (Mark 10:43)
• meet for instruction and to pray together; (Heb. 10:25, James 5:16)

(1) There are religious beliefs that have existed since antiquity;
(2) Much of what is taught in Christianity (especially in the Sermon on the Mount) embraces these beliefs also;
(3) These teachings are also at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry.

The key point and the operative word in (3) that you continue to miss is "also." The teachings above are the ones from the Pike quote I previously posted. They are shown with their direct scriptural reference so you can see where they come from. These are the "core truths" taught in the principles of Masonry.

They are also the core truths of Christianity. Will you object to that as well?

Will you object to loving one another?

Will you object to doing unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Will you object to forgiving others?

Will you object to meekness and humility? (You certainly have in practice).

Will you object to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"

Without the gospel all Muslim Masons, Hindu Masons, and other pagan Masons, as well as some professing "Christian" Masons who really don't know Christ will suffer eternal separation from God.

What are you doing to prevent that from happening?

Being a witness in deed, and not just in word, by belonging to a fraternal organization which allows its members to be of different religious persuasions without being exclusionist to the point of shutting all avenues of concourse.

I dare say you're doing very little to stem the tide by coming here and railing against a group with the same core truths, and with a high ratio of members who profess Christianity.

 

[Rev Wayne]

It is so Paganism when you are calling them "Guardian and guide of our Souls". This titile belongs to God alone, not pagan gods.

Pardon my French, but you have altered the quote. “I” am calling them nothing of the sort. Nor is Pike when you read it correctly. There was no “our” in Pike’s description. Nor was Pike even suggesting what you claim. He was simply describing what was said of Mercury in mythology. But don’t take my word for it, check a few sources, such as Karl Kerenyi’s Hermes, Guide of Souls.

All you said was that you reworded the challenge to include a "building" that all peoples and nations could come to pray

And this, had you stopped there, was the gist of it. The more you took it any further, the more you twisted anything I said about it.

Albert Pike clearly doesn't seem to have a problem with using Pagan symbols. He is NOT Christian.

Do you have a problem with the symbol of the cross representing Christ? Then you are guilty of using a “pagan” symbol yourself. By your logic, then, wouldn't that make you also “not a Christian?” The cross was a religious symbol for centuries before it was adopted by Christianity.

Christ used parables that could be implemented into the every day life of the people he taught, that seemed to work quite efficiently. He never referred icons from Satan's religious systems to represent His truths.

You seem to have forgotten about the serpent on the pole, that’s about as direct as you can get. The Serpent is a very common symbolic reference to Satan, and Jesus used the serpent on the pole typology from the wilderness experience to illustrate His own death on the cross. We even celebrate it in a well-known Christian hymn, “Look and Live.”

If you have objections, save them, you were the one who made the claim, I just posted this to show how wrong the whole approach is that says just because a symbol represents one thing to one group or time or place, that it must by necessity represent that to all groups, times, and places. Truth is, practically any symbol you can name that has been around for any length of time, has undergone changes that have given it a range of meaning.

But in truth, “icons from Satan’s religious system” is a total mischaracterization of Masonry’s symbols.

The study of this Pentagram could not but lead the Magi to the knowledge of the New Name which was about to raise itself above all names, and cause all creatures capable of adoration to bend the knee.

“Name above all names” and “every knee shall bow?” How is that a first commandment violation?


You need to re-read that statement if you think he is talking of Jesus. The name Jesus is NOT mentioned, it is presumed he is talking of him from the "Saviour of the world" comment in the first sentence, again the name of Jesus is not actually mentioned.

I guess you missed the Magi reference, which pulls in the three wise men, huh? I really don’t know any other person that would come to mind when talking about three wise men and a star. Especially when you add "name above all names and "every knee shall bow" into the mix.

(the name of Jesus was not a new one)

It was to the Magi, who only referred to Him as "a child.".

which was to raise "itself" (Jesus was exalted of the Father, not of Himself Phil 2) above all names.

Then, it causes all creatures "capable of adoration" to "bend the knee".

This is NOT talking of Jesus here, the Bible says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" Phil 2:10

Literalist nonsense.

Pike wasn’t laying out a compendium of Christian theology, to hold his comments to such intense scrutinizing is preposterous. Besides, you have given no alternative suggestion as a substitute. If it wasn’t talking of Jesus, who could it have been?


And Pike is actually closer to the meaning with what he said, than general interpretation has rendered it. The verbs in the passage are not in the imperative, giving no cause for this to be taken as the act of “forced submission” that many people interpret it to be. That “should” bow in the text is subjunctive, and would be more correctly translated as “may” or “might.” Same subjunctive also with “confess.” It is conditional phrasing, not imperative.

 

[O.F.F.]

I am addressing the central core of His teachings, most specifically, the Sermon on the Mount. That is not my own opinion, that is a truth I have seen expressed by many a Christian, that the core of teachings taught in the Sermon on the Mount are the center of Chrisian teaching. Surely you don't think I just make this stuff up?

Many Christians believe that the Sermon on the Mount is a form of commentary on the Ten Commandments. To many, the Sermon on the Mount contains the central tenets of Christian discipleship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, does not represent Christianity, nor many a Christian that I know. However in this whole exchange, and in other related threads on this website, you refuse to acknowledge that John 14:6 is the only way anyone can get to heaven, including ALL Masons regardless of their religious persuasion. You would rather give the impression that because of it's moral teachings, Freemasonry is compatible with biblical Christianity and that the spiritual implications of ignoring the significance, exclusivity and necessity of Jesus Christ is inconsequential.

 

[Rev Wayne]

It is interesting again, that you say that the teachings of Christ are "at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry", and yet, I thought, according to you, that the Mason's weren't a religion.

Then, I suppose the Gideons International must be a religion, at the heart and foundation of what they do is a verse from Isaiah 55, "My Word shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

To say it has Christianity at its "heart and foundation" is the clearest way to describe the root of truth contained in Masonry. At its inception, Freemasonry had no hesitation in declaring it to be so, and one of the clearest declarations of Masonry's Christian roots is to be found in Hutchinson's Spirit of Masonry, first published in 1775 (Quotes are from Crown Publishing's reprint, 1982):

Our morality is deduced from the maxims of the Grecian philosophers, and perfected by the Christian revelation. (Lecture II)

The institutors of this society had their eyes on the progressive advancement of religion, and they symbolized it, as well in the first stage, as in the succeeding orders of Masons. The knowledge of the God of Nature forms the first estate of our profession; the worship of the Deity, under the Jewish law, is described in the second stage of Masonry; and the Christian dispensation is distinguished in the last and highest order. (Lecture II)

An ancient writing, which is preserved amongst Masons with great veneration,* requires my attention in this place, as it discovers to us what the ancient Masons regarded as the foundation of our profession. This writing is said to have come from the hand of King Henry the Sixth, who began his reign in 1422: it is in the form of an inquisition for a discovery of the nature of Masonry. From this ancient record we are told, "that the mystery of Masonry is a knowledge of nature and its operations. That this science arose in the East." ** From the East, it is well known, learning first extended itself into the western world, and advanced into Europe. "The East" was an expression used by the ancients to imply Christ (Lecture II)

But superior to all, the lodge is furnished with three luminaries;* as the golden candlestick in the tabernacle of Moses was at once emblematical. of the spirit of God, whereby his chosen people were enlightened, and prophetical of the churches; or otherwise Josephus says, representative of the planets and the powerful works of God: so our three lights shew to us the three great stages of Masonry, the knowledge and worship of the God of nature in the purity of Eden - the service under the Mosaic law, when divested of idolatry - and the Christian revelation: but most especially our lights are typical of the holy Trinity. And as such is the furniture of the lodge ;** such the principles dictated to us as Masons, let us rejoice in the exercise of those excellencies, which should set us above the rank of other men; and prove that we are brought out of darkness into light, And let us show our good works unto the world, that through our light so shining unto men, they may glorify the Great Master of the Universe; and therefore "do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with their God." (Lecture V)

We have the following passage in the Biographia Ecciesiastica: "The ancients were also wont to put a white garment on the person baptized, to denote his having put off the lusts of the flesh, and his being cleansed from his former sins, and that he had obliged himself to maintain a life of unspotted innocence. Accordingly, the baptized are, both by the Apostle and the Greek fathers, styled f?t???µe???, the enlightened, because they professed to be the children of light, and engaged themselves never to return again to the works of darkness.* This white garment used to be delivered to them with this solemn charge: 'Receive the white and undefiled garment, and produce it without spot before the tribunal of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you may obtain eternal life. Amen.' They were wont to wear these white garments for the space of a week after they were baptized, and then put them off and laid them up in the church, that they might be kept as a witness against them if they should violate the baptismal covenant." (Lecture V)
[This expounds a bit upon Mackey’s mention of this early Christian practice, even telling us the source from which he drew it.]

(* In M. Clavel's Picturesque Masonry, he informs us that in the dome of Wortzberg, in front of the entrance to the chamber of the dead, we see on one side, on the chapiter of a column, the mysterious inscription Jachin; and at the other side, the word Boaz, on the shaft of a pillar. And the figure of Christ, which occupies the top of the portal of the church of St. Denis, has his hand placed in a position well known to all existing Freemasons.) (Lecture VII)

The acquisition of the doctrine of redemption is expressed in the typical character of Euramen, (???aµe?, inveni,) and by the applications of that name with Masons it is implied, that we have discovered the knowledge of God and his salvation, and have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution and unrighteousness.* Thus the Master Mason represents a man, under the, Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation. As the great testimonial that we are risen from the state of corruption, we bear the emblem of the Holy Trinity, as the insignia of our vows and of the origin of the Master's order. (Lecture IX)
[This line, “thus the Master Mason represents. . .,” has been much criticized by antimasons. But seen in its full context it is most fully explained and shown to have thoroughly Christian origins]

The divine construction put upon this emblem of the Master's order, which he declares, is the principle by which he is raised from darkness; so it is also the emblem of moral duties professed by the Mason, and which in former ages were most religiously performed. These, also, are principles immediately resulting from the Christian doctrine. The Master Mason imposes a duty on himself, full of moral virtue and Christian charity, by enforcing that brotherly love which every man should extend to his neighbor. (Lecture IX)

The ceremonies now known to Masons prove that the testimonials and insignia of the Master's order, in the present state of Masonry, were devised within the ages of Christianity; and we are confident there are not any records in being, in any nation, or in any language, Which can show them to be pertinent to any other system, or give them greater antiquity. (Lecture X)

Our society, as it now stands, is an association on religious and charitable principles; which principles wereinstituted, andarose, upon the knowledge of God, and in the Christian revelation. (Lecture X)

Our lodges are not now appropriated to worship and religious ceremonies; we meet as a social society, inclined to acts of benevolence, and suffer the more sacred offices to rest unperformed. Whether this neglect is to our honor, we presume not to determine, in our present state professing ourselves Free and Accepted Masons. We are totally severed from architects, and are become a set of men working in the duties of charity, good offices, and brotherly love - Christians in religion - sons of liberty and loyal subjects: we have adopted rules, orders, emblems, and symbols, which enjoin us to live a life of morality; we have furnished our lodges with those striking objects which should at once intimate to us the mightiness and wisdom of God, the instability of the affairs of man, and the various vicissitudes of human life, and have set before our eyes preceptors of moral works; and to strengthen our faith, we have enlightened our lodge with the emblem of the Trinity. (Lecture XIII)

By the crusades, the number of our society would be greatly augmented; the occasion itself would revive the rules of Masonry, they being so well adapted to that purpose, and also professional of the Christian faith, from whence sprang the spirit of the enterprise. After these pursuits subsided, bodies of men would be found in every country from whence the levies were called; and what would preserve the society in every state, even during the persecutions of zealots, the Master Mason's Order, under its present principles, is adapted to every sect of Christians. it originated from the earliest era of Christianity, in honor to, or in confession of, the religion and faith of Christians, before the poison of sectaries was diffused over the church. (Lecture XIII)

In this assembly of Christians, it is nowise requisite to attempt an argument on the necessity which there was upon earth for a Mediator and Savior for man; in the rubbish, superstitions, ceremonials, and filth of the Jewish temple, the true worship of God was buried and confounded, and innocence became only the ornaments of its monument. Then it was that the Divinity, looking down with an eye of commiseration on the deplorable state of man, in his mercy and love sent us a Preceptor and Mediator, who should teach to us the doctrine of regeneration, and raise us from the sepulcher of sin, to which the human race had resigned themselves; he gave to us the precepts of that acceptable service wherewith his father should be well pleased; he made the sacrifice of expiation, and, becoming the first fruits of them that slept, manifested to mankind the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. In the Master's order this whole doctrine is symbolized, and the Christian conduct is by types presented to us. (Lecture XIV)

In regard to the doctrine of our Savior and the Christian revelation, it proceeded from the east. The star which proclaimed the birth of the Son of God appeared in the east. The east was an expression used by the prophets to denote the Redeemer. From thence it may well be conceived that we should profess our progress to be from thence; if we profess by being Masons, that we are a society of the servants of that Divinity, whose abode is with the Father co-eternal, in the centre of the Heavens. (Lecture XIV)

BRETHREN, - I flatter myself there is no Mason of my acquaintance insensible of the sincere regard I ever had, and hope ever to retain, for our venerable institution; certain I am if this establishment should ever be held in little esteem by the members, it must be owing to the want of a due sense of the excellence of its principles, and the salutary laws and social duties on which it is founded.
But sometimes mere curiosity, views of self-interest, or a groundless presumption, that the principal business of the lodge is mirth and entertainment, have induced men of loose principles and discordant tempers to procure admission into our community; this, together with an unpardonable inattention of those who proposed them, to their lives and conversations, have constantly occasioned great discredit and uneasiness to the craft; such persons being no ways qualified for a society founded upon wisdom, and cemented by morality and Christian love. (Appendix G, “An Address to the Lodge, Emediately after the Investiture and Installment of the Officers”)

Temperance consists in the government of our appetites and affections, so to use the good things of this life as not to abuse them; either by a sordid and ungrateful parsimony on the one hand, or a profuse and prodigal indulgence to excess on the other. This virtue has many powerful arguments in its favor; for, as we value our health, wealth, reputation, family, and friends, our characters as men, as Christians, as members of society in general, and as Freemasons in particular, all conspire to call on us for theexercise of this virtue; in short, it comprehends a strict observance of the Apostle's exhortation, "be ye temperate in all things;" not only avoiding what is in itself improper, but also whatever has the least or most remote appearance of impropriety, that the tongue of the slanderer may be struck dumb, and malevolence disarmed of its sting. (Appendix G, “An Address to the Lodge, Emediately after the Investiture and Installment of the Officers”)

Believe me, this is only the tip of the iceberg, considering how much there is within the book that COULD be added. This foundation is intentional and direct, and can still be seen intact in the many symbols in Masonry that have been directly established upon Christianity and Christian principles.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, does not represent Christianity, nor many a Christian that I know.

Granted. But nowhere does Wikipedia claim, nor did I represent it to do so, that this is absolutely and dogmatically true of all Christians. Nor did I cite the entry from Wikipedia as a stand-alone assertion at all. Wikipedia simply states it, that “many Christians believe” this to be the case. And they are right, many Christians do. I have seen it described as the “Christian Decalogue” and many other indications that the Sermon on the Mount is to the New Covenant as the Decalogue is to the Old.

I guess the biggest surprise is that you take such vehement exception to what other Christians have to say about the Sermon on the Mount. After all, it contains some of the most standard Christian beliefs and some of the most memorized, cherished, treasured, not to mention they are probably among the most recognized beliefs not only among Christians, but among those who have any knowledge of the Christian faith. These include the Beatitudes, the Lord’s Prayer, the Golden Rule, and the often-quoted references to “resist not evil,” “turn the other cheek,” “salt of the earth,” “light of the world,” and “judge not, lest you be judged.”

How you can argue that these have no central place in Christian thinking is totally beyond me. Apparently you not only do not understand Masonry, you do not understand the central teachings of your own Christian faith.

 

[O.F.F.]

How you can argue that these have no central place in Christian thinking is totally beyond me.

I never said that they have no place in Christian thinking or teaching. However, with you supposely being a pastor and all, it's totally beyond me that you continue to avoid the significance, exclusivity and necessity that Jesus Christ plays in Christian thinking.

To say it has Christianity at its "heart and foundation" is the clearest way to describe the root of truth contained in Masonry. At its inception, Freemasonry had no hesitation in declaring it to be so, and one of the clearest declarations of Masonry's Christian roots is to be found in Hutchinson's Spirit of Masonry, first published in 1775 (Quotes are from Crown Publishing's reprint, 1982):

You know Masonically well, that one of the rules of Freemasonry is that the opinion of a Mason about Masonry is his own and he cannot and does not speak on behalf of the institution of Freemasonry. Only Grand Lodges can speak on behalf of Freemasonry and you cannot find enough Grand Lodges to support Hutchinson's position on the Masonic Order to conclude that the "Spirit of Freemasonry" is Christian.

Your claim based on Hutchinson's opinion is preposterous! ALL Masons, be they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. go through the same first three degrees. They all undergo the same Hiramic Legend of the 3rd degree (which other Masonic authors have shown to have its roots in the Ancient Egyptian Mysteries) to become a Master Mason. So explain to us pastor, apart from faith in Christ which neither of them have, how can a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, or other nonbeliever "represent a man under the Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation?"

 

[ReluctantProphet]

I never said that they have no place in Christian thinking or teaching. However, with you supposely being a pastor and all, it's totally beyond me that you continue to avoid the significance, exclusivity and necessity that Jesus Christ plays in Christian thinking.

You know Masonically well, that one of the rules of Freemasonry is that the opinion of a Mason about Masonry is his own and he cannot and does not speak on behalf of the institution of Freemasonry. Only Grand Lodges can speak on behalf of Freemasonry and you cannot find enough Grand Lodges to support Hutchinson's position on the Masonic Order to conclude that the "Spirit of Freemasonry" is Christian.

Your claim based on Hutchinson's opinion is preposterous! ALL Masons, be they Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. go through the same first three degrees. They all undergo the same Hiramic Legend of the 3rd degree (which other Masonic authors have shown to have its roots in the Ancient Egyptian Mysteries) to become a Master Mason. So explain to us pastor, apart from faith in Christ which neither of them have, how can a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, or other nonbeliever "represent a man under the Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation?"

So your saying that if a Pastor joins a math club, then he cannot teach Christianity any longer because he believes in math?

The Masons believe in a particular method of construction of a society on a foundation level that applies to any society and religion assuming it is stable. It is the stable foundation that Masons concern themselves about. As long as a religion does not conflict with those basic principles (Which Jesus certainly didn't) then there is no conflict.

If you think that those first 3 levels conflict with Jesus, please point out exactly how.

 

[Abbadon]

Oh, so I guess Pike must have meant that The Blazing Star in our lodges represents the Nativity Star, or the Sun of righteousness and not Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury.

Again -- I can refer to a strong person as "Hercules" without believing Hercules ever existed.And lets just ignore the first sentence and maybe it will just disappear.

Masons claim to be neither religious or a religious organisation. And yet, in most lodges you are not allowed to be and "athiest" and join the lodge. Huh??? makes no sense.

Philosophers have argued for and against the existance of God since philosophy came about -- Freemasonry bans atheism from it's lodges for philosophical reasons.

This still makes no sense in the light of Rev Waynes comment that the teachings of Christ are the heart and foundation of Masonry.

Again, philosophy. Confucious, Plato, and other philosophers came to the conclusion that we ought to love each other. Love is what's behind Christianity. That's what's meant.

And lets just ignore the first sentence and maybe it will just disappear.

No, I'm not ignoring anything in this.

What Pike said in that quote was: "This symbol represents this figure. This figure is a symbol of this." You're ignoring the second part, the part where he says "I'm using this pagan figure [no statement of belief] as a symbol for this rather nice value."

Why is it neccessary to use pagan deities to represent these attributes. God represents these well enough.

Because that can lead to anthropomorphizing God beyond necessessity or reason.

It is so Paganism when you are calling them "Guardian and guide of our Souls". This titile belongs to God alone, not pagan gods.

You either misread, or you are actively misquoting. The sentence was "The Blazing Star in our Lodges, we have already said, represents Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls." 'Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls,' no "our." You have no right or basis in knowledge to say who I trust my soul to, just as I have no right to say who you trust yours in.

In the mythology he came from, Mercury guided souls to the underworld. Knowing this doesn't mean belief in it.

Don't deceptively twist words about like that.

It is so Paganism when you are calling them "Guardian and guide of our Souls". This titile belongs to God alone, not pagan gods.

Why is it neccessary to use pagan deities to represent these attributes. God represents these well enough.

Yourself and Rev Wayne are "skipping over" these very important points. Christianity and Paganism don't mix. Full Stop. Albert Pike clearly doesn't seem to have a problem with using Pagan symbols. He is NOT Christian.

Gee, you seem to have no problem having a cross icon in your profile, even though it was used by pagans before 2000 years ago.

Christianity and paganism don't mix, correct. Christians can and have used symbols pagans have used before. What is a pentagram? Five lines, nothing more, nothing less. It is the meaning that is brought to it that matters.

If Christianity was the heart and foundation of your organisation why on earth would you want to use "mythological figures" to symbolise your philosophical ideas.

Again, to avoid anthropomorphizing God beyond necessity or reason.

Christ used parables that could be implemented into the every day life of the people he taught, that seemed to work quite efficiently. He never referred icons from Satan's religious systems to represent His truths.

Yes, but with a archetypal figures, we can simply give a different slant, and have a figure represent sets of values (whereas Christ represents all values, )

I am a Christian with young children, if I wished to portray to them the importance of certain virtues, like prudence, fidelity, love, etc, would it be more appropriate for me to use pagan deity symbology or to teach them about Christ and His character?.

My parents were Christians, and like others Christians before them, they taught me about Christ, and they gave me myths to cling onto. I can refer to Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars if I want to provide an example of the Christ-like virutes and patience, or Luke Skywalker to represent faith, or so on, to my brother, for example.

Our culture has inherited much from Greece and Mesopotamia. Even though we don't believe in thier gods, we can still refer to the story of Gilgamesh, and say "hey, that Gilgamesh fellow really cares for his friend Enkidu, just like Christ wants us to care for our friends."

Christ presents the virtue. A story or symbol re-presents it as an example. It never hurts to have multiple examples of something positive.

Well for starters, New Age Theology believes Lucifer to be the creator, Muslims believe Allah to be the creator, I understand Hindu's or Buddists don't believe that the Christian God is the creator.

I've met ONE new ager that honestly believes Lucifer to be the creator. Most of them are more towards Hindu or Buddhist views. There's no monolithic "new-age theology."

And you didn't answer his question -- How many creators are there?

Do those other "creators" exist?

If they pray not to Brahma, Vishnu, Allah, or whoever, but to the creator, who are they going to pray to?

Using your logical reasoning. It is obvious that Pike was a Pagan that is behind the very obvious extent of Pagan literature he has read.

Difference here: he had to check in on those sources. He remembered the Christian stuff. That oughta say something.

Nobody would even bother to follow Jesus if He hadn't lived according to His own teachings. Many religions however don't even believe in Jesus, so how can you say that His teachings can be found common in all religions.

One of the things Christ taught was really important was love. Other religions teach that love is important as well.

However, someone that is not religious can still say "love is important" and not be religious. The teaching is a religious teaching, but teaching "love is important" doesn't make one religious.

Christianity - Matt. 7:12 - "Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Hinduism - Law Code of Manu - "Wound not others, do no injury by thought or deed, utter no word to pain thy fellow creatures."

Zoroastrianism - Counsels of Adurbad 92 - "If you do not wish to be mistreated by others, do not mistreat anyone yourself."

Sikhism - Granth Japji 21, "We obtain salvation by loving our fellow man and God."

Buddhism - Dhammapada - "Having made oneself the example, one should neither slay nor cause to slay. As I am, so are other beings; thus let no not strike another nor get another struck."

Islam - 40 Hadith of an-Nawawi 13 - "Not one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother what he desires for himself."

They do it by presuming all concepts of the Creator are one in the same; just as the Masonic Rev. Wayne is trying to suggest.

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the (singular) Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41 (emphasis added)

If I ask a Muslim if he believes in God, he'll say he does. Both of us can say "we believe in God." Now, just because I acknowledge that he believes he knows who God is doesn't mean I believe as he does, nor does it mean I believe that his view is just as correct as mine is.

You have learned that Freemasonry calls God, 'The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.). This is the Freemason's special name for God, because he is universal. He belongs to all men regardless of their religious persuasion. All wise men acknowledge His authority. In his private devotions a Mason will pray to Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, Jesus or the Deity of his choice. In a Masonic Lodge, however, the Mason will find the name of his Deity within the G.A.O.T.U.

- Page 6, The Craft and Its Symbols by Allen E. Roberts (emphasis added)

This isn't actual Masonic rule. This is no more valid than claims that Freemasonry possesses "secrets of Atlantis" or is controls the government.

We, as Masons, believe that there is only one Supreme Being. You may refer to that Supreme Being as you please. You may ask the blessings of Jehovah, Allah, Yod, Mohammad, or any other Supreme Being that you believe in. We make no distinctions in what you believe that Supreme Being's name is. This is your preference and the preference of all Masons everywhere."

WHAT ARE THE SECRETS OF FREEMASONS? by William Larson, 33° Kenton Lodge #145, Oregon USA (emphasis added)

Both previous points:

-Not masonic rule.
-Stating that they're not going to force a member to pray to one particular God. Is the government a satanic religion for refering to God on it's money and in it's documents, but saying "we're not going to force you to pray to any particular god."...? No.

No, not at all. Pike is saying that originally it represented Sirius, Anubis, Mercury,etc.

But if the original meaning of the star meant that Pike actually believed in Sirius, Anubis, etc, then you ought to know that the worshippers of Bacchus sometimes used the cross as a symbol of thier religion.

Again, it's the meaning that's brough to the symbol that matters, using a mythological figure as a symbol doesn't mean belief in that figure, etc.

But naturally noone on other side of the arguement will care.

Before that he says that to give to the Blazing Star the meaning of the star that guided the Magi, is "comparatively modern".

Anubis and so forth were worshipped before 2000 years ago. The cross representing Christ is "comparatively modern" as well. Something being comparatively modern doesn't make it less valuable.

And where does he say that it's comparatively modern?

He then goes on to discribe the meaning held by various other lodge "brethren", but reconfirms in the last statement that in our lodges we have already said the blazing Star represents Sirius, Anubis or Mercury, and that the Ancient English Brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun.

Where does he do that?

The paragraph on p. 506 is last mention of the Blazing star relating to Anubis, Mercury, and so forth.

You've gotten the paragraph backwards. He does not reconfirm it.

Pike clearly agrees with the "original" meaning as opposed to the "comparatively modern" one. You posting all those quotes doesn't change anything.

You know, it would help if you actually posted where in the book you were talking about. As it is, at best, it looks like you're parroting info from a source that twist words about, spins, omits, and makes up stuff.

Just because he says "well, the star was used to represent this before it was used to represent the star of the magi" and just because he likes the idea that the symbolic character that the star represents doesn't mean that he is a pagan or anything.

I personally find this quote somewhat of a snide remark against Christianity. It appears that Pike is stating that the same "Christians that imposed silence on the lying oracles and put an end to the prestiges of false Gods", then in turn revere the men of the East. It seems to me that perhaps Pike finds that a little hypocritical. I personally don't believe that Christianity revers the "Magi from the East", as Pike would suggest.

That's because you're blowing the word "revere" out of proportion.

Back then, it was more "hey, those guys that followed the star to meet Jesus were really cool guys! They must have been really smart!"

The wise men that followed the star? Those are the magi. Magi is the untranslated word.

The sentence can only be taken as a snide remark when misread. The parts you're complaining about say "Christianity got those oracles to shut up (because those oracles were lying fakes), and works to get rid of false gods, and shows favor to the Magi that visted Jesus."

How the heck did you find it to be a snide remark?

You need to re-read that statement if you think he is talking of Jesus. The name Jesus is NOT mentioned, it is presumed he is talking of him from the "Saviour of the world" comment in the first sentence, again the name of Jesus is not actually mentioned.

If you think that's talking about Satan, you're paranoid.

However, if you read again, he is saying that the study of the Pentagram (Blazing Star) could not but, lead them to the knowledge of the New Name (the name of Jesus was not a new one) which was to raise "itself" (Jesus was exalted of the Father, not of Himself Phil 2) above all names.

You put in an comma after the bold 'but' that wasn't there before, altering the structure of the sentence.

Jesus, as a common Jewish name, was not new. Jesus, as the name of God, was new.

What's a pentagram? Just five lines. It's the meaning brought to it that matters.

In the case Rev cited, the pentagram refers to the star the magi followed. That star lead to Jesus.

This is NOT talking of Jesus here, the Bible says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" Phil 2:10

Not just those capable, but every knee will bow.

Aren't we splitting hairs here?

Besides, if you have a knee, you're capable of bowing. Knees are what's necessary to bow.

"All creatures capable of adoration" would have to have knees.

"All creatures capable of adoration to bend the knee." = "every knee should bow."

 

[Abbadon]

(Part 2):

Absolutely NOT!!! The heart and foundation of Jesus' teaching is the gospel.

You're mixing Rev's words around in your response.

He said "wouldn't it be more accurate to suggest that the teachings of Christ are at the heart and foundation of the religious beliefs found to be common to all religions?"

He did NOT say "wouldn't it be more accurate to suggest that the heart and foundation of Christianity are in the teachins of the religious believes found to be common to all religions?"

You're talking about something else. He's saying "Christ's teachings (particularly love), can be seen in other religions." You are saying that he said "Jesus isn't necessary."

Remember what that is pastor? That would be the fact that God incarnate revealed Himself to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. It's about Him and Him crucified; He who gave His life as a ransom for many; He who knew no sin, but gave His life for the sin of the world.

It's about the imputed righteousness of the precious Lamb of God who takes away sin by trusting in Him and Him alone for salvation and eternal life. It's about He who died for us, and rose again, so that we would know that He is the one and only Creator (Colossians 1:16) and that we should die to "self" and live for Him.

Now, if I were to respond to this the way you are responding to Rev, I'd say "you're saying we gotta do good works to get into heaven!" or "You're saying that only Jesus got into heaven!"

Where is the gospel found in the fundamental teachings of all religions?

It's not, but that's not the issue. You're distorting others words to make it the issue. You are right that Jesus is Lord, and Rev and I are right in that belief as well. But that's not the issue.

Where is the gospel found in the religious teachings of Freemasonry?

Where are they restricted, halted, or hindered in Freemasonry? They're not.

What are you doing to prevent that from happening? Coming here to defend the false teachings of the Masonic Lodge only perpetuates their condemnation and gives the impression that you may be one of them.

What're you doing? You're distorting the teachings of the Masonic Lodge, and the words of those that defend it, because you won't accept the idea that you might be wrong.

I don't know what induced this delusion of "it's OK for me to twist things so I sound right, and it makes me right" in you and Harlin, but I pray that y'all snap out of it.

Pardon my French, but you have altered the quote.

Both of them seem to have a habit of doing that.

However in this whole exchange, and in other related threads on this website, you refuse to acknowledge that John 14:6 is the only way anyone can get to heaven, including ALL Masons regardless of their religious persuasion.

Where did he deny that Jesus was the Way, the Truth, the Life, that noone comes to the father but through Him? Rev didn't, he believes John 14:5, as do many other Masons.

I never said that they have no place in Christian thinking or teaching. However, with you supposely being a pastor and all, it's totally beyond me that you continue to avoid the significance, exclusivity and necessity that Jesus Christ plays in Christian thinking.

It's totally beyond me that you continue to imply that he doesn't believe Jesus is significant, exclusive, and necessary.

Wait, 'you continue to avoid the [...] necessity that Jesus Christ plays in Christian thinking.' Um, didn't he cite a few things Jesus talks about when refering to Christian thinking?

They all undergo the same Hiramic Legend of the 3rd degree (which other Masonic authors have shown to have its roots in the Ancient Egyptian Mysteries) to become a Master Mason.

Yeah, and many authors have just as authentically shown Freemasonry to have it's roots in Atlantis.

Hiram is mentioned in the Bible as having worked on Solomon's Temple. During medieval times, guilds would have occasional plays using fringe Biblical character, say a baker's guild would do a story on the Israelites cooking without yeast after leaving Egypt. The stone mason's guild would do one about Hiram. The stone mason's guild had to guard it's trade secrets, and developed handshakes and codes. Because they were building the important buildings, nobles really came to respect the stone masons, and wanted to join thier guild. The masons guild also put in some ethical teachings as well. Eventually, need for a stone mason's guild went away, but a group where laborers and nobles could join for ethics lessons with secret codes remained. That's how Freemasonry came about, not from ancient Egyptian Mystery religions. Those authors didn't do thier homework anymore than the UFO people do.

So your saying that if a Pastor joins a math club, then he cannot teach Christianity any longer because he believes in math?

Seems so. Poor math teachers.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Your claim based on Hutchinson's opinion is preposterous!

What claim was that?

Never mind, I’ll answer it for you, since you’re struggling with a reality-based response right now. The only claim was the same claim made in response to an accusation that has appeared several times now—and in fact which I cited as I began the post:

It is interesting again, that you say that the teachings of Christ are "at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry", and yet, I thought, according to you, that the Mason's weren't a religion.

In response, just before posting the material from Hutchinson, I said:

To say it has Christianity at its "heart and foundation" is the clearest way to describe the root of truth contained in Masonry. At its inception, Freemasonry had no hesitation in declaring it to be so, and one of the clearest declarations of Masonry's Christian roots is to be found in Hutchinson's Spirit of Masonry, first published in 1775 (Quotes are from Crown Publishing's reprint, 1982):

And you make this odd statement:

Only Grand Lodges can speak on behalf of Freemasonry and you cannot find enough Grand Lodges to support Hutchinson's position on the Masonic Order to conclude that the "Spirit of Freemasonry" is Christian.

“Conclude that the ‘Spirit of Freemasonry’ is Christian?” Where was I trying to do that? The book, after all, is a Masonic book, why would you think I was trying to prove it is Christian?

Nevertheless, in response to your claim of Hutchinson as “only one man” who “can’t speak for Freemasonry,” you seem to have forgotten this piece posted at ephesians5-11 by your friends:

The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.

(1947 Ed. Ahiman Rezon, pages 141-2)​

Those words, or most of them, are reproduced in the monitors of several states.
(“An Open Letter to a Christian Mason,” at ephesians5-11.org)

There it is by Albert Mackey, and “reproduced in the monitors of several states.” And it’s Hutchinson’s opinion, quoted directly from “The Spirit of Freemasonry.”

Now note:

Of all the Masonic writers of the 18th century, Hutchinson was undoubtedly the most learned.

http://www.tranexp.hr/primjeri_NeuroTran_recenica_10_engcro_8.html

Mackey cites a “learned writer,” he is further identified as Hutchinson. But follow this further:

Oliver's theory of Masonry as a system of tradition seems to
have been derived from Hutchinson. The latter deserves a moment's
digression.

William Hutchinson (1732-1814), an English lawyer, is perhaps the
earliest Masonic philosopher. In 1774 by permission of the Grand
Lodge, which then insisted upon a right to censor all Masonic
writing, Hutchinson published his chief Masonic work entitled "The
Spirit of Masonry." Oliver himself has said that this book was "the
first efficient attempt to explain in a rational and scientific
manner the true philosophy of the order." Hutchinson's doctrine was
that the lost word was symbolical of lost religious purity due to
corruptions of the Jewish faith. He held that the master's degree
symbolized the new law of Christ taking the place of the old law of
Judaism which had become dead and corrupt. By a bit of fanciful
etymology he derived Hiram (Huram) from the Greek heuramen (we
have found it) and Acacia from the Greek alpha privative and Kakia
(evil)--Akakia, freedom from evil, or freedom from sin. Thus, he
says, the Master Mason "represents a man under the Christian
doctrine saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith
of salvation." Hutchinson influenced Hemming, who wrote the
lectures of the Ancients and a trace of this influence may be seen
in America in the interpretation of the blazing star in our
lectures.

Clearly enough Oliver got his cue from Hutchinson.

Follow the line of influence:

(1) Hutchinson influenced Oliver and Hemming;
(2) Hemming wrote rituals, the “lectures of the Ancients”;
(3) Oliver also found considerable acceptance in Masonry.
(4) Oliver in turn influenced Albert Mackey, whose work appears in probably more Masonic manuals today than any other one person.

Thus your claim about his being “only one man” and therefore without any voice of authority in Masonry is totally unfounded. Hutchinson’s influence is still greatly felt in Masonry, even today. Included in that influence are the very direct assertions already posted, showing the clear foundation of Christian principles that undergirds Freemasonry.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

I don't know what induced this delusion of "it's OK for me to twist things so I sound right, and it makes me right" in you and Harlin, but I pray that y'all snap out of it.

It is the ear mark of a specifically designed class of serpent, "accuser denial".

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Pardon my French, but you have altered the quote. “I” am calling them nothing of the sort. Nor is Pike when you read it correctly. There was no “our” in Pike’s description. Nor was Pike even suggesting what you claim. He was simply describing what was said of Mercury in mythology. But don’t take my word for it, check a few sources, such as Karl Kerenyi’s Hermes, Guide of Souls.

Okay, so who's Souls would Hermes or Mercury be the guide of then?

And this, had you stopped there, was the gist of it. The more you took it any further, the more you twisted anything I said about it.

Not true, that is what you said directly after I asked the question and you even quoted the question above it. I do not see a you clearly stating that this was not a response to the question as you say.

Do you have a problem with the symbol of the cross representing Christ? Then you are guilty of using a “pagan” symbol yourself. By your logic, then, wouldn't that make you also “not a Christian?” The cross was a religious symbol for centuries before it was adopted by Christianity.

I have already addressed this in a previous post. Yes I do have a problem with the cross being used in Christianity, as it is associated with the pagan god Tammuz. As Abbadon kindly pointed out I have it in my icon, if I could remove it or knew how, then I would.

You seem to have forgotten about the serpent on the pole, that’s about as direct as you can get. The Serpent is a very common symbolic reference to Satan, and Jesus used the serpent on the pole typology from the wilderness experience to illustrate His own death on the cross. We even celebrate it in a well-known Christian hymn, “Look and Live.”

If you have objections, save them, you were the one who made the claim, I just posted this to show how wrong the whole approach is that says just because a symbol represents one thing to one group or time or place, that it must by necessity represent that to all groups, times, and places. Truth is, practically any symbol you can name that has been around for any length of time, has undergone changes that have given it a range of meaning.

But in truth, “icons from Satan’s religious system” is a total mischaracterization of Masonry’s symbols

That serpent on the pole, represent Christ becoming sin for us. And yes, the correct symbol for sin was used, the serpent.

I don't believe pagan symbology deserves a place within Christianity. If pagans and occultists use those symbols to communicate to each other what their true beliefs are, which are not Christian, then I personally don't want anything to do with them.

I guess you missed the Magi reference, which pulls in the three wise men, huh? I really don’t know any other person that would come to mind when talking about three wise men and a star. Especially when you add "name above all names and "every knee shall bow" into the mix.

How many wise men were there in the story of Bethlehem?. To the Luciferians, when you talk of "three wise men", a "star" and "a name above all names" can they take that to mean someone other than Jesus?

If no name is actually mentioned, it is left open to interpretation.

Quote:

which was to raise "itself" (Jesus was exalted of the Father, not of Himself Phil 2) above all names.

Then, it causes all creatures "capable of adoration" to "bend the knee".

This is NOT talking of Jesus here, the Bible says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" Phil 2:10

Literalist nonsense.

Pike wasn’t laying out a compendium of Christian theology, to hold his comments to such intense scrutinizing is preposterous. Besides, you have given no alternative suggestion as a substitute. If it wasn’t talking of Jesus, who could it have been?

It takes intense scrutiny to recognise Jesus in this passage. Like I said, Jesus was not going to exalt Himself, (like Lucifer does) Jesus was exalted by His Father.

To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word.....etc"Isaiah 8:20

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Rev Wayne]

Okay, so who's Souls would Hermes or Mercury be the guide of then?

No one that I know. You seem to make too much of "what was said of Mercury in mythology." I follow Jesus Christ as my Guide, and I'm not mythology.

I do not see a you clearly stating that this was not a response to the question as you say.

So now you see it, now you don't, like a magician?

I have already addressed this in a previous post. Yes I do have a problem with the cross being used in Christianity, as it is associated with the pagan god Tammuz. As Abbadon kindly pointed out I have it in my icon, if I could remove it or knew how, then I would.

Yes, and I notice you have a pink one that is upside-down. I thought a good antimason would "recognize" that as demonic. And THAT one you certainly CAN remove, but you have not.

I'm being facetious, of course, simply to show you how ridiculous the accusations sound to Masons who know how devoid of truth such things are.

That serpent on the pole, represent Christ becoming sin for us. And yes, the correct symbol for sin was used, the serpent.

I don't believe pagan symbology deserves a place within Christianity. If pagans and occultists use those symbols to communicate to each other what their true beliefs are, which are not Christian, then I personally don't want anything to do with them.

Well, I must disagree. I'm glad that I am free to see and use the symbol of the cross to represent in the clearest fashion possible, Jesus the Resurrection and the Life, which is certainly not pagan. I certainly would not want to dismiss a symbol so rich in meaning for me as a Christian, just because of some other attribution of meaning by someone else which I do not share. My favorite one is a wooden cross I received from the former pastor of my home church, who was good with woodwork, and fashioned as many as he could from the altar rail of the old church after they moved into the new building. Sure would have been a shame to tell him, "Sorry, I don't want your pagan symbols."

How many wise men were there in the story of Bethlehem?.

No way of knowing, really. But Christian interpretation traditionally has it as three because of the three-fold gift of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

If no name is actually mentioned, it is left open to interpretation.

This makes less sense the further you try to make something out of nothing. If you had simply read the very first reference Pike makes to the Blazing Star in Morals and Dogma, you wouldn't be repeating all this nonsense:

The Blazing Star in the centre is said to be "an emblem of Divine Providence, and commemorative of the star which appeared to guide the wise men of the East to the place of our Saviour's nativity." (p. 14)

That was his FIRST remark in the book. It has details:

"a star"
the star "appeared"
the star appeared as a "guide"
"wise men"
these wise men were "of the East"
they followed the star to "the place of our Saviour's nativity"

So, if this is so open to interpretation, show me where you find another story with a star appearing in the sky, guiding wise men from the East to a place where a baby has been born who is called "our Saviour." Until you can, have the decency to quit insulting the readers' intelligence with repeated, nonsensical, and baseless claims about nothing.

 

[O.F.F.]

Thus your claim about his being “only one man” and therefore without any voice of authority in Masonry is totally unfounded.

You have yet to produce the Grand Lodge documents to support your assertion.

 

[O.F.F.]

So your saying that if a Pastor joins a math club, then he cannot teach Christianity any longer because he believes in math?

R.P. you missed the point. Suppose that a group of mathematicians, with individual expertise in various disciplines of math, got together and decided to form a special men’s club devoted to philanthropic social/civic duties to the community. Let's say they also decide to called themselves the Fraternal Order of Mathematicians (FOM).

And, suppose that this group of math geeks decided that they wanted to meet regularly in what they called Temples of Math, and start their monthly meetings with a prayer to their math god of choice i.e. the Geometry god, the Algebra god, or the Trigonometry god, etc. While each of these mathematic deities is conceptually different, and the group of mathematicians could all agree to this, it would still be difficult to select a generic name that they all could embrace.

Geometrists would want to worship Polygon, and of course, the men of Algebra would want to worship Abscissa, while Trigonometrists worship the Pythagorean theorem. Unfortunately, neither could agree to use the name of one math god without favoring one over another. However, if they could choose a generic name, such as the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe (SGMMOTU), and open all of their prayers in his name, all of the mathematicians would be pleased. But are they at all worshipping the One True God of the Bible? No, according to the bible, they are worshipping demons (Psalm 96:5, Corinthians 10:20-22).

Now consider the situation if a Christian, astute in mathematics, were to join a Temple of Math and take part in the ritual of the Fraternal Order of Mathematicians. Also, this Christian assumed that he was worshipping Jesus, whenever he joined FOM in corporate prayer to the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe. Would the God of Bible be willing to accept worship in this manner? Again, the answer is NO according to Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth where he wrote:

20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

1 Corinthians 10:20-22

Are you starting to get the picture?

By joining in any pagan worship ceremony, we SIN against God. Jesus taught that any form of prayer is worship (Luke 11:2). When we as true Christians realized that the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe (SGMMOTU) is not the God of the Bible, we must repent and renounce our involvement in the Temple of Math. Jesus will forgive us, but his forgiveness is dependant on our confession and repentance.

I hope this helps you better understand the dilemma faced by "Christian" Masons.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You have yet to produce the Grand Lodge documents to support your assertion.

Evidently you weren't paying attention. Let's do this again:

The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.

(1947 Ed. Ahiman Rezon, pages 141-2)​

Those words, or most of them, are reproduced in the monitors of several states.
(“An Open Letter to a Christian Mason,” at ephesians5-11.org)

AHIMAN REZON--Grand Lodge documentation. "It has been remarked by a learned writer of our order" is the statement by Mackey. That "learned author" is Hutchinson, and the source of the remark is The Spirit of Masonry by Hutchinson.

This is beyond dispute because the statement Mackey made after attributing it to "a learned writer of our order," is a WORD-FOR-WORD citation of the statement as it appears in The Spirit of Masonry.

The antimasons of ephesians5-11.org cited the source for you, it was listed as the Indiana Monitor, dated 1947. It was added in the article at eph-5-11, that

"Those words, or most of them, are reproduced in the monitors of several states."

I was willing to take their word for it. Apparently you believe they are lying.

And that is not an isolated statement on the matter. For example, in an article titled "Masonic Rituals for the Blue Lodge," the same material from Mackey is posted, with the following remarks:

The text used is derived from the writings of Albert G. Mackey, whose Manual of the Lodge (1862) is the basis of Ahiman Rezon, the Monitor of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina. Numerous Grand Lodges have repeated Mackey's teaching:

I don't know how many you may determine "numerous" to be, but it sounds to me like quite a few. But then, of course, antimasons have been known to lie in order to make their case appear stronger than it actually is. Perhaps they were simply lying about it here as well.

I don't have to post a quote from every Grand Lodge Monitor to make this case. You guys have been claiming this to be widespread in Masonry from the word go. So I will leave it to you to determine the truth of the matter:

Does Mackey's statement in Ahiman Rezon appear in "numerous" Grand Lodge official publications--which would establish what I have already shown;

OR

Have antimason articles been overstating the matter when declaring how many official Masonic publications contain the content of Mackey's remarks--exposing them as liars?

 

[Harlin]

R.P. you missed the point. Suppose that a group of mathematicians, with individual expertise in various disciplines of math, got together and decided to form a special men’s club devoted to philanthropic social/civic duties to the community. Let's say they also decide to called themselves the Fraternal Order of Mathematicians (FOM).

And, suppose that this group of math geeks decided that they wanted to meet regularly in what they called Temples of Math, and start their monthly meetings with a prayer to their math god of choice i.e. the Geometry god, the Algebra god, or the Trigonometry god, etc. While each of these mathematic deities is conceptually different, and the group of mathematicians could all agree to this, it would still be difficult to select a generic name that they all could embrace.

Geometrists would want to worship Polygon, and of course, the men of Algebra would want to worship Abscissa, while Trigonometrists worship the Pythagorean theorem. Unfortunately, neither could agree to use the name of one math god without favoring one over another. However, if they could choose a generic name, such as the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe (SGMMOTU), and open all of their prayers in his name, all of the mathematicians would be pleased. But are they at all worshipping the One True God of the Bible? No, according to the bible, they are worshipping demons (Psalm 96:5, Corinthians 10:20-22).

Now consider the situation if a Christian, astute in mathematics, were to join a Temple of Math and take part in the ritual of the Fraternal Order of Mathematicians. Also, this Christian assumed that he was worshipping Jesus, whenever he joined FOM in corporate prayer to the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe. Would the God of Bible be willing to accept worship in this manner? Again, the answer is NO according to Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth where he wrote:



Are you starting to get the picture?

By joining in any pagan worship ceremony, we SIN against God. Jesus taught that any form of prayer is worship (Luke 11:2). When we as true Christians realized that the Sovereign Grand Math Master of the Universe (SGMMOTU) is not the God of the Bible, we must repent and renounce our involvement in the Temple of Math. Jesus will forgive us, but his forgiveness is dependant on our confession and repentance.

I hope this helps you better understand the dilemma faced by "Christian" Masons.

Hello,

LOL good post, very creative. I had a good chuckle. May I ask, what were your reasons for leaving Freemasonry?

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Rev Wayne]

LOL good post, very creative. I had a good chuckle. May I ask, what were your reasons for leaving Freemasonry?

Equally creative! "May I ask?" (Hee hee, you guys are a riot)