Masons

[O.F.F.]

What you fail to mention here that you include in your testimony, is that it was not the Bible that brought that about, but the John Ankerberg show.

Anyone here can go to my Masonic testimony and find no mention of the John Ackerberg show. And, while I have said his show influenced me, it was only because it reinforced what God's Word had already revealed to me. Besides, his show used the Bible to prove the incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity. You can try to undermine the power of God's Word if you wish pastor, but it won't work. Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4).

 

[O.F.F.]

I didn't realize you were a Prince Hall Mason. That's pretty cool I think. Do you believe there is a significiant difference between PH Masonry and non-PH Masonry?

No Jason, there really is no difference in substance, "due and ancient form" or the spiritual implications posed by those who oppose the teachings of Freemasonry. After all Prince Hall, along with 14 other "free" African Americans, were made Masons by those who ultimately hailed from the Grand Lodge of England -- the mother of speculative Masonry -- from whom they received their charter in 1784 to operate in America as African Lodge No. 459.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Anyone here can go to my Masonic testimony

and find no mention of the John Ackerberg show.

My mistake, you are correct, it does not appear there. Your testimony and the testimonies of others were all linked to the "why" on the site, and it was one of the others which referred to Ankerberg:

I asked for books from my pastor and elders in my church (Presbyterian Church in America). I also completed my own personal study using Masonic authors that included Pike, Mackey, and Blackmer. As a matter
of fact, the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania recommended Blackmer's book as a good summary. Additionally, I read Ankerberg and Weldon as well as Jack Harris' book. ("Demolay, Lodge, and then Christ," an article on the emfj website by Val W. Finnell)

But you've never challenged it before, why is this time different? all, this is the third time this thread I have said the same thing, and only now you react to it.

John Ankerberg is cited in the testimony on the O.F.F. site. John Ankerberg is one of the most-quoted sources of misinformation about Freemasonry, and his deliberately distorted, misquoted, and misrepresented “quotes” of Masons have made him one of the premier fiction writers of our time.
(This thread, p. 12, post #111. You posted a response in #114 and never challenged it)

In your testimony on your website, you mention the influence of John Ankerberg on your point of view.
(p. 26, post #254, June 24, 2006)

And, while I have said his show influenced me, it was only because it reinforced what God's Word had already revealed to me.

That's a strange concept, "reinforcing God's Word" with the testimony of a proven liar:

Is it True What They Say About Freemasonry?

Speaking of your testimony, I still find it strange that you testify to being "raised from a dead level to a living perpendicular."

 

[O.F.F.]

That's a strange concept, "reinforcing God's Word" with the testimony of a proven liar:

You use Masonic sources to say that opponents of Freemasonry are liars. [staff edit]

Speaking of your testimony, I still find it strange that you testify to being "raised from a dead level to a living perpendicular."

Is that not how all Masons are raised in due and ancient form? I said that so that Masons know that I had indeed become a Mason.

[staff edit]

 

[Rev Wayne]

You use Masonic sources to say that opponents of Freemasonry are liars. [staff edit] .

You use non-Masonic sources to say that Masons are liars. In principle, it's the same thing. [staff edit]
If the "Masonic sources" were not among those being foolishly accused, their defense would not be necessary. But you know the source as well as I do, and you know they have made their case against Ankerberg and Weldon in chapter 4, and it is solid. [staff edit] .

I said that so that Masons know that I had indeed become a Mason.

That's the whole point: it seems to be so important to you. [staff edit]

What's more strange is a supposed "Christian" pastor's Masonic testimony of the "Holy Spirit" leading him to become a Mason when the vast majority of Christian denominations find Freemasonry to be an anathema to Christianity

[staff edit]

"Holy Spirit"--now here's the one that should disturb you. I know who led me and who has been my guide for so long now, and the Holy Spirit has never led me any place that He wasn't willing to go along with me.

My question is, are you intending by "Holy Spirit" the same thing you always intend by "Christian?" If so, you need to be aware of the dangerous ground you tread. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the one offense Scripture describes which is "unpardonable." I don't say with any dogmatic certainty that you have done this, [staff edit]

I'm not sure what category that falls in, or what offense that is to the Holy Spirit, if any, but you seem to be rushing in where angels wisely fear to tread.

One of the first things urged upon us as Masons is the watchword of caution. I am urging the same, not by way of any argument, but just an invitation to step back a moment so that we take heed of what we do. No matter our differences or the fervor we bring to the discussion of them, I have never stopped considering you as a Christian brother, and as such I now appeal to you to consider your words carefully.

 

[O.F.F.]

[staff edit]

I do not wish to explain my Masonic testimony anymore to you. Anyone, especially a Mason, can follow its flow and clearly see the use of Masonic language in the beginning was used to confirm my former status. And, everyone who reads it will conclude that I choose no longer to be a Mason for the reasons outlined therein.

[staff edit]

When I use the word in quotations, it is not to suggest that you are not a Christian. Only God knows your heart and judges your relationship to Him. I don't, nor does any other mortal man or woman, have such power. Instead, it is to suggest or beg the question, why would a Christian (especially a Christian pastor) make some of the claims that you do; particularly when the vast majority of Christian denominations are opposed to Freemasonry.

Just as Baptist "authority" is limited to the individual's understanding of the Bible, Masonic "authority" is limited to the individual Grand Lodge laws which govern the administrative affairs of the fraternity. This means that the newly-made Mason has as much right to interpret the symbols to his own needs as the officers of his Lodge do to theirs. This freedom naturally results in diverse opinions. Because Masonic rituals vary around the world, the symbols are likewise variously interpreted.

Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry? The Methods of Anti-Masons by Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris

Freemasonry may give you the right to interpret it to be compatible with Christianity, but God's Word doesn't. If Freemasonry can be interpreted to be compatible with ANY religion, it stands to reason that it cannot be compatible with Christianity. Why? Because Christianity cannot be compatible with religious teachings that are diametrically opposed to one another.

For example Islam teaches from the Koran that God has no son and Christianity teaches from the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Living God. It is impossible for God to have a son and not have a son at the same time. Therefore, it is illogical for anyone to say that Islam & Christianity are compatible, which is what Freemasonry is suggesting about all religions in order to claim that it [Speculative Masonry] is compatible with them all.

If the newly-made Mason has as much right to interpret the symbols to his own needs as the officers of his Lodge do to theirs, than so do former Masons. Therefore, if former Masons interpret the symbols as a mockery against God and conclude that Freemasonry is NOT compatible with biblical Christianity, than Masonically speaking, our interpretation is just a valid as yours.

My question is, are you intending by "Holy Spirit" the same thing you always intend by "Christian?"

No! It was meant to question whether the Holy Spirit led you into the Masonic Lodge, or was it an unholy spirit or simply your own flesh. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would lead anyone into an organization that has teachings which cause its members to violate the First Commandment, even if this is not the intention of the organization.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I do not wish to explain my Masonic testimony anymore to you. Anyone, especially a Mason, can follow its flow and clearly see the use of Masonic language in the beginning was used to confirm my former status.

In other words, for the same reason that Ankerberg lied about Blanchard's status, and Jim Shaw lied about his status, etc. etc. etc.--so that by such claims they might create a facade of credibility for their lies, and thereby facilitate their sales for their "non-profit" organizations.

As usual, full of self-contradictions:

When I use the word in quotations, it is not to suggest that you are not a Christian.

No! It was meant to question whether the Holy Spirit led you into the Masonic Lodge, or was it an unholy spirit or simply your own flesh.

You claim the use of "Christian" was not intended to suggest the possibility of "un-Christian."

[staff edit]

[staff edit]

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would lead anyone into an organization that has teachings which cause its members to violate the First Commandment, even if this is not the intention of the organization.

I believe in the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You have yet to show me where in this belief I have "violated the First Commandment."

Freemasonry may give you the right to interpret it to be compatible with Christianity, but God's Word doesn't. If Freemasonry can be interpreted to be compatible with ANY religion, it stands to reason that it cannot be compatible with Christianity. Why? Because Christianity cannot be compatible with religious teachings that are diametrically opposed to one another.

Been through this a thousand times already, and you are no closer to perceiving the truth than you were at the first. Freemasonry affirms only the core of truths that are the heart of all religions. For instance, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," which is a core teaching of both Confucius (at least 6 centuries before Christ) and the ancient Persians (about 2000 years before Christ).

Masonry affirms this teaching, as does Christianity--hence the compatibility. Masonry affirms James 1:27, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." It is affirmed also in Christianity, hence the compatibility. The fact that other religions also affirm them does nothing to detract from the compatibility between Freemasonry and Christianity.

But the statement that "Christianity cannot be compatible with religious teachings that are diametrically opposed to one another" is a straw man argument, since Freemasonry has never claimed that the singular teachings of any religion must be considered compatible with all other religions. Masonry affirms only those core truths that all religions share. Your straw man substitute of things "diametrically opposed" is duly noted, but of course it has nothing to do with the affirmations of Freemasonry, or with its compatibility with Christian principles.

The symbolism is easy to see:

The murder of Hiram, his burial, and his being raised again by the Master, are symbols, both of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer; and of the death and burial in sins of the natural man, and his being raised again to a new life, or born again, by the direct action of the Redeemer; after Morality (symbolized by the Entered Apprentice's grip), and Philosophy (symbolized by the grip of the Fellow-Craft), had failed to raise him. That of the Lion of the House of Judah is the strong grip, never to be broken, with which Christ, of the royal line of that House, has clasped to Himself the whole human race, and embraces them in His wide arms as closely and affectionately as brethren embrace each other on the five points of fellowship.
As Entered Apprentices and Fellow-Crafts, Masons are taught to imitate the laudable example of those Masons who labored at the building of King Solomon's Temple; and to plant firmly and deep in their hearts those foundation-stones of principle, truth, justice, temperance, fortitude, prudence, and charity, on which to erect that Christian character which all the storms of misfortune and all the powers and temptations of Hell shall not prevail against; those feelings and noble affections which are the most proper homage that can be paid to the Grand Architect and Great Father of the Universe, and which make the heart a living temple builded to Him: when the unruly passions are made to submit to rule and measurement, and their excesses are struck off with the gavel of self-restraint; and when every action and every principle is accurately corrected and adjusted by the square of wisdom, the level of humility, and the plumb of justice.
The two columns, Jachin and Boaz, are the symbols of that profound faith and implicit trust in God and the Redeemer that are the Christian's strength; and of those good works by which alone that faith can be established and made operative and effectual to salvation.
The three pillars that support the Lodge are symbols of a Christian's HOPE in a future state of happiness; FAITH in the promises and the divine character and mission of the Redeemer; and CHARITABLE JUDGMENT of other men.
The three murderers of Khir-Om symbolize Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas the High-Priest, and Judas Iscariot: and the three blows given him are the betrayal by the last, the refusal of Roman protection by Pilate, and the condemnation by the High-Priest. They also symbolize the blow on the ear, the scourging, and the crown of thorns. The twelve fellow-crafts sent in search of the body are the twelve disciples, in doubt whether to believe that the Redeemer would rise from the dead.
The Master's word, supposed to be lost, symbolizes the Christian faith and religion, supposed to have been crushed and destroyed when the Saviour was crucified, after Iscariot had betrayed Him, and Peter deserted Him, and when the other disciples doubted whether He would arise from the dead; but which rose from His tomb and flowed rapidly over the civilized world; and so that which was supposed to be lost was found. It symbolizes also the Saviour Himself; the WORD that was in the beginning--that was with God, and that was God; the Word of life, that was made flesh and dwelt among us, and was supposed to be lost, while He lay in the tomb, for three days, and His disciples "as yet knew not the scripture that He must rise again from the dead," and doubted when they heard of it, and were amazed and frightened and still doubted when He appeared among them. (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 640-42)

If the newly-made Mason has as much right to interpret the symbols to his own needs as the officers of his Lodge do to theirs, than so do former Masons.

This is yet another example of your continued inconsistency. Your statement, posted on your own website, says:

Finally, since we have been conferred the rights, lights, and benefits bestowed upon members of the Craft, yet now choose to renounce the teachings of Freemasonry and be "OFF" rather than "from", in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ and His Word, it stands to reason that we would be called the Order of Former Freemasons (O.F.F.) and Ex-Masons for Jesus. So if ever asked again, "will you be off or from?" our answer will be, "I'll be O.F.F.!"

Somehow, even though you have claimed to have "renounced" the principles of Freemasonry, yet when you find yourself trying to make an accusation that won't hold, you try to appropriate for yourself that which you have renounced: the Masonic principle of open interpretation of the symbols.

Incredibly, somehow you do not see that what you are doing is claiming your interpretation of Masonic symbols is a valid Masonic interpretation.

[staff edit]

 

[JasonV]

Methinks you two like to argue.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Also, I know the Holy Spirit didn't guide you into Freemasonry, because if he did, why you are the only Mason in history that has made such a claim?

Actually, it’s pretty common. For instance, I recently posted a statement about it at Lodgeroomuk.net, and got this reply:

I definitely feel the Lord led me to the lodge as well, strange as that may sound or in fact may be; I haven't figured it out yet. I hope you'll allow me to bounce ideas or questions off you every once in a while.

Man, I sure can relate to that part about "haven't figured it out yet." Apparently he had faced, as I have, a barrage of accusations to the contrary. It can be a difficult piece of discernment to muddle through all the clutter and hear what God is truly saying through the Holy Spirit, whether on the subject of Freemasonry, or any other subject. When it came down to hearing the voice of the Spirit while trying to mentally sort through all the claims and counter-claims, I finally had to just dig in and get serious about prayer for guidance. I hunkered down and decided I would read no more, I would listen no more, I would discuss no more, until the Holy Spirit made it incontrovertibly clear what I should do.

That’s a different approach for me, because God has always brought me to decisions by drawing, by wooing, by having me make decisions based on what I knew intuitively, and thereby teaching me in gradual increments to trust His Spirit and to grow in discernment by having that discernment tested to the limit. And always afterward, there is the steady flow of things I receive after the fact by way of confirmation that let me know the decision was the right one, and that my understanding of the directions received had been correct.

And in fact, that was the direction God wanted me to go with this decision as well, because Masonry is, after all, “of one's own free will and accord.” The Spirit had every desire that I should follow His prompts and understand intuitively and act accordingly, but my refusal to do so closed off the channels. And so eventually, after a hard struggle with it, the confirmation was given and I understood and followed the Spirit's guidance.

The fact is, I would have recognized and followed much earlier, had it not been for the continued persistence of accusers. I knew that if the accusations were correct, then making a decision to join would be a terrible mistake. But I also knew the voice of my God, and I was given every assurance through the Holy Spirit’s “still, small voice” that He was with me, just as the verse I had chosen as my life verse many years earlier, had always assured me:

“Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.” (Joshua 1:9)

With the Spirit whispering once again these words of assurance, I gave in and followed the path He had made clear to me. Entering the first time as an Entered Apprentice, how reassuring it was, with the sense of sight being temporarily blocked, to hear the words of Psalm 133 as we made our way around the altar: “How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, running down on the beard, the beard of Aaron, running down on the edge of the garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, descending upon the mountains of Zion; for there the Lord commanded the blessing—life forevermore.”

Knowing the symbolism of the third degree in its reference to Dhrist, I have never forgotten just how it felt to go through the treatment of the three ruffians as the scene of the killing of Hiram was re-enacted with me in the lead role. When first accosted and grabbed by the lapels, the natural instinct was to come up with the hands, but the Spirit was with me even then, reassuring me and instructing me that the hands were to remain down. I was not coached to do this, I was GUIDED as I went through the ritual. As I followed that course, and simply gave in and allowed myself to be carried along as a passive player in the drama, I have never forgotten how the Holy Spirit thus impressed upon me the whole scene of the appearance of Christ before Caiaphas, and before Pilate, and how through it all, He said not a word in His defense. I was in tears beneath the blindfold, not because of anything in the ordeal itself, which of course was a mere re-enactment and no actual trauma, but because of a fresh realization and appreciation in a brand new way of what Jesus Christ my Savior had endured for me because of my sins.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit in the world is to witness to Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit led me to join this organization, and as I underwent the required ritual re-enactments that are part of the process of joining, the Holy Spirit was right there with me, witnessing even as I undertook the role in the Master Mason degree, showing me Jesus throughout the entire drama. What I have just described does not even begin to unfold for you all that I was being shown by the Spirit throughout those three degrees. I was left with a far clearer understanding than I had ever had about why Masons attach so much importance to maintaining the wording and the details of their rituals precisely as they have received them. For every detail stood out in bold relief and witnessed to me of Christ my Savior in ways I had never thought possible to conceive.

Led by the Holy Spirit to join the lodge? You betcha. “Un-holy spirit” as you claim? I do not wish to even entertain such a thought, nor hold such a discussion with you any further. I know my precious Lord, He has been my Guide through life, He called me to the ministry, and even after I ran from that call a number of years, getting entangled in a drug and alcohol web, He came and reclaimed my life on December 20, 1986, surrounding my house when no one else was around, refusing to leave me alone until I surrendered. That was a Saturday night, at a time when I had not been attending church for 14 years, and the next morning I was in church, and have never turned back again. Two days after that experience, the call to ministry was renewed in a very special way, such a way in fact, that can only be called miraculous, and was intended to impress upon me once and for all the call to be His minister in His holy church. That knowledge of the Spirit’s call on my life and the purpose He has chosen for me, has held me to this task many times when nothing else could have. When difficulties have arisen, and when questions have come, He has been right there, guiding, strengthening, giving assurance, in ways that I would never have imagined or even thought possible.

And yet now you wish me to listen to you speak of this wonderful Guide who has been so precious to me, as an “un-holy spirit” and presence in my life?

I think you presume to know far more than you could ever know about me and my relationship with Christ. I also think your preoccupation with what you do as an emfj, o.f.f.’ian, or whatever other ministry you ascribe to, is abnormal to the point of obsession, and I pray for whatever it is that keeps you locked in such bondage to be taken away, and your spiritual freedom in Christ realized to its fullest potential.

 

[Rev Wayne]

[staff edit]


Actually, on a Christian forum board, there is really no correct placement for a fraternity, which is what Freemasonry is. As a system of “theology,” though, there is no place they could find here that would be totally accurate, because it is not a theology at all. To call it one is certainly “unorthodox,” I must admit, hence I have no quarrel with any such placement. But I never said anything about the Holy Spirit inspiring anything, where on earth did you get that?

(ME) I believe in the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You have yet to show me where in this belief I have "violated the First Commandment.

[staff edit]
[staff edit]

However, I will acknowledge that this is just another example of how Pike "speaks in fork tongue" by giving an impression of something "Christian" in one area of his work, Moral & Dogma, then referring to it as something pagan in another area of the same book. Wayne knows this yet insist on always taking quotes from this book whatever suits his agenda, which is to deceive the masses into thinking that Masonry is a complement to Christianity. But, YOU can't have it both ways pastor! Either Pike's position is that Masonic symbolism is Christian or it's pagan. Otherwise, you both are confused as can be.

The only thing that is confused is your perception of Pike’s work. Of course Pike "speaks of something Christian in one place, and of something pagan in another." The book, after all, is not a treatise on the Christian faith, so why would you object to its not being what it was not intended to be? It resembles, more than anything else, an exhaustive exploration of religious themes as expressed in all world religions. He actually discusses Christian positions and beliefs, but he includes in that discussion many references to the same themes as found in every other tradition known to man.

Your comment about picking and choosing is duly noted, but I can only note the irony of such an accusation, since it comes from someone whose pick and choose methods in relation to Pike, leave a lot to be desired. I haven’t forgotten that you have often cited the very same sliced and diced, ellipsed, and selectively quoted versions that Ankerberg and others have used to deceive so many people. You have been shown many times exactly how these things have been used to dupe people who are ready to buy into the next conspiracy theory that comes along, yet you persist in such usage yourself.

Nor have I forgotten that Pike is passé, an all but forgotten blip on the landscape of Masonry, many of his opinions were shown for the speculations that they were, and Mackey’s too; Mackey had the good grace to renounce them and move on, apparently Pike did not.

As for your objections about “Khir-om,” you needn’t have bothered. Masonry has said all along that the story of Hiram is an allegory, it has never been presented as factual history nor as literal truth. It is an allegory, a parable if you will, in which the story tells its truth indirectly, and the elements of the allegory each represent other things, rather than in literal language. The word “Khir-om” has nothing to do with Isis, Osiris, Horus, or anything else of such antiquity, since the allegory of Hiram is a late addition to Masonry. In fact, it was not even around at the date given as the birth of modern Freemasonry, 1717, but instead was a later addition. I have Masonic manuals from as late as the 1850’s that do not so much as mention Hiram even once. Kind of hard to prove any continuity from antiquity with so many "missing links."

And the word “Khir-om,” by the way, is simply a transliteration of the Hebrew word we know as “Hiram.” As I already noted, the portion of Pike which your source quoted, is exactly the same type of correlation of Masonry to ancient themes, in an attempt to show derivation, which has been shown to be in error. It has no relevance to Masonry, either then or now, other than in the active imaginations of diehard accusers.

But let’s be honest about the source you quoted in the matter, shall we? Harris cites the Pike quote as p. 435. But the chapter on “Knight of the Brazen Serpent” does not end until p. 523! What he has done is lift out the beginning paragraph of a discussion that goes on for 88 pages, and tried to portray the simple little part as the whole.

But any good writer will tell you, you can find out a lot more about what a man is saying from reading his conclusions than you will ever find out from his introductions. For it is the conclusion which carries his summation of all that he has said in between. Pike starts at the point Harris indicates, winds his way through all the practices related to astrology, notes the incorporation of many of these into Jewish and Christian forms, and laments the mistake humans have made since the beginning of “confounding the symbol with the thing signified,” which he says in actuality is the heart of idolatry (p. 516). He finishes up the chapter with these concluding remarks:

Thus enfeebling the dominion of the senses and the passions over the soul, and as it were freeing the latter from a sordid slavery, and by the steady practice of all the virtues, active and contemplative, our ancient brethren strove to fit themselves to return to the bosom of the Deity. Let not our objects as Masons fall below theirs. We use the symbols which they used; and teach the same great cardinal doctrines that they taught, of the existence of an intellectual God, and the immortality of the soul of man. If the details of their doctrines as to the soul seem to us to verge on absurdity, let us compare them with the common notions of our own day, and be silent. If it seems to us that they regarded the symbol in some cases as the thing symbolized, and worshipped the sign as if it were itself Deity, let us reflect how insufficient are our own ideas of Deity, and how we worship those ideas and images formed and fashioned in our own minds, and not the Deity Himself: and if we are inclined to smile at the importance they attached to lustrations and fasts, let us pause and inquire whether the same weakness of human nature does not exist to-day, causing rites and ceremonies to be regarded as actively efficient for the salvation of souls.

And let us ever remember the words of an old writer, with which we conclude this lecture: "It is a pleasure to stand on the shore, and to see ships tossed upon the sea: a pleasure to stand in the window of a castle, and see a battle and the adventures thereof: but no pleasure is comparable to the standing on the vantage-ground of TRUTH (a hill not to be commanded, and where the air is always clear and serene), and to see the errors and wanderings, and mists and tempests, in the vale below; so always that this prospect be with pity, and not with swelling or pride. Certainly it is Heaven upon Earth to have a man's mind move in charity, rest in Providence, AND TURN UPON THE POLES OF TRUTH." (p. 522-23)

The quote is from Sir Francis Bacon. Considering all the things Pike covers in this lengthy chapter, and the many ways he notes all the mistaken notions people have of God, it is easy to see why he includes this quote. His whole discussion has been very similar to seeing “the errors and wanderings, and mists and tempests, in the vale below. Yet he concludes with a reference to Bacon’s comment that our minds should “move in charity, rest in Providence, and turn upon the poles of truth.”

I see nothing at all amiss in Pike’s lecture against worshipping things that signify God to us rather than worshipping God Himself; nor do I fault him for declaring that rites and ceremonies are not to be regarded as “actively efficient for the salvation of souls.” And if my mind should “move in charity, rest in Providence, and turn upon the poles of truth,” than I would consider myself to have advanced quite a few steps in the right direction.

 

[I'ddie4him]

Sorry folks, This thread is being closed for a review.
Stay tuned for further details.

 

[gort]

Mod Hat On!

Twas the night before Thanksgiving

And all thru the thread

Gort was editing posts

There was flaming about

If yer post was edited, was cut or is gone

You violated the rules,

Of this, there's no doubt.

Please post by the rules

Please abide, hold them near

There'll be no more cleanups,

No more mod hats and chances

This content, this thread

Will just disappear!

I hope this is clear

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member or group of members;
- Ridiculing another member's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's religious beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Calling or describing other people, groups, belief-systems, or ideas as heresy or a cult (or derivatives of these words). Instead of using these emotionally charged words, please state "X is wrong because of Y" rather than using these words in polemical discussion;
- Asking loaded questions that directly cause flames in response;
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Mod Hat Off​

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[apocatastasis]

I like rabbits.

 

[Rev Wayne]

The paramount issue shaking the world today is the same that convulsed this nation some 140 years ago—the issue of liberty. Shall people speak and act and worship God as they choose, or shall freedom of speech, action, and worship be destroyed? In this crucial hour, the American people are fated to utter the deciding word. We will strike for freedom, of course. That has been our tradition, our way of life. From George Washington at Valley Forge, through Abraham Lincoln during the War between the States, and Franklin Roosevelt crushing Nazism and Fascism in 1945, America has so acted as to draw to us, in hope and yearning, men and women everywhere who were downtrodden and enslaved. But, as we well know, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty and democracy.--Rabbi Sidney S. Guthman, written for Thanksgiving 2001

I like Rabbis.

 

[O.F.F.]

To all, and especially Rev. Wayne:

On this, Thanksgiving, day I would like to express a public apology to Rev. Wayne, the Debate Team Moderators and all other members who have reviewed or responded to this thread. While I do not agree with Wayne's position on Freemasonry, nor do I believe that the Holy Spirit led him to become a Mason, it does not give me the right to react in the unloving way I have to him in this thread and other threads here at CF on this topic.

Please forgive me for being rude and inconsiderate, and for causing Moderator "gort" to have to spend time editing our posts. I have failed once again to exercise several fruits of the Spirit, namely love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. I now choose to repent.

After failing -- for so long -- to respond to this brother as I should, I finally realize that I must refrain from responding to him at all, from now on; unless I can do so in love. Not only do I need to take heed to God's Word on the matter, but I need to take heed to the words of my mother; who often told us, "if you cannot say things in a kind way, then don't say anything at all."

In closing, with gratitude on this Thanksgiving, I would like to share the following scripture:

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Colossians 3:12-17

 

[Rev Wayne]

Gracious words indeed. No apology necessary where I'm concerned, can't say I do the best job of making discussion inviting and non-aggressive. Further discussion from this point I will leave up to you, and should we continue, I commit to a new start from this point. Hopefully, whether we ever see eye-to-eye or not (probably not), we can at least take this to a new level, a win-win situation for all concerned.

 

[chaoschristian]

*BUMPING* this thread in light of recent questions on the forum.