Masons

[Harlin]

Quote:
14. Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the North, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

15.Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thous shalt see greater abominations than these.

16. And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house,and , behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east" Eze 8:13-16

The Lord calls this an abomination, and yet you are suggesting that I am disagreeing with Jesus. Sorry, but you are way off the mark here.
Well, if I'm off the mark, you led me there.

What in the world does an OT reference to worshipping the sun in the Temple, have to do with Jesus' comment that people of all nations can come to the temple and pray?

I think it's about time for the mischaracterization of my remarks to stop.

Because YOU, not me, made the parallel between God's temple being a house of prayer for all, and the Masonic Lodge, if you would just look back over the previous posts. I asked when did Jesus ever set up an organisation that embraced all the religions?....Obviously I am referring to the Lodge, where all religions are embraced.

You replied that Jesus said the temple of the Lord was a place where all peoples and nations could come to pray. You stated that, that would mean people from all religions could come and pray.

I then said, that they could come and pray to God, not to their false religious deities, as it is God's house of Prayer, and provided you with the reference from Ezekiel that shows, that to worship another deity in the House of God, is indeed an abomination to Him.

Where may I ask from all of that did I set you wrong. You now ask the relevance of Ezekiel to the discussion???? I am gobsmacked as to your lack of understanding here.

Using the example of God's house as a house of pray, in NO way sanctions the activities of the Masonic Lodge. You didn't go into the temple of God, and find on the altar, holy books from other false religions. There was no embracing of all religions in the temple, when those activities occured, it was always an abomination.

What mischaracterization of your remarks?? not sure what you are talking about, perhaps you could be more specific.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

The Bible is but evidence of the light that is being reflected off it's hard surface. The Bible is much like the Moon where faces can be seen that aren't really there. Without the Sun, the Moon would be nothing but darkness, so it is worthy in its place for reflection into the darkness that which the Earth would hide from every heart.

But how can you test the purity of a light against what you see from the Moon? Until you truly see the Sun and it shines fully upon the Earth, your comparisons will be for naught.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" in the brightest of all light when the day arises.

"Condemn not lest ye be judged" by the lustful presumptions of your own heart.

Assumption is the Son of Lust and Lust the Father of all Sin. Why rush into assumptions and judgments before your calling to need?

If you but state was is false even once, how have you not forsaken Truth and stand against it? How long will you be drawn to defend your presumption against ever growing condemnation of the truth surrounding your future?

Strike at a serpent in the pale darkness and become one yourself. The angered wariness of the wolf is transmitted by his bite only to create more of the deception he feared.

Be not of only truth and you are only of the disease and the dying darkness incapable of holding light within you nor shining it unto others.

Okay, interesting. I believe the Bible to be God's Word, I believe we are to look at all things in the light of the teachings and life of Jesus in the Bible. Jesus is our example, He is the one to follow, no one else, as He is the only way to heaven, to the Father.

Judging someone or something is, I assure you, completely different from comparing someone or something to the life and testimony of Jesus. If it/they do not fall into perfect harmony with His teachings, I can safely disregard it.

That is what being a "Christian" is, following Christ, not anyone else.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Rev Wayne]

I have a problem with the statement above. Where is the Biblical reference for Jesus ever saying that he who serves with the most "devotion" will be first.

You certainly do have a problem. I’m surprised you never saw it. The passage is in all the Synoptic Gospels:

Mark 10:35-45, Matt. 20:17-28, and Luke 18:31-34

Jesus said, he who desires to be greatest will be the least.

What He actually said was, “If anyone among you desires to be great, let him be your servant.” And then He took it a step further, saying, “And if anyone would be first among you, let him be slave of all.” The distinction is made between being “great” among you, or being “first,” or to put it another way, “great” or “greatest.” It is represented more clearly in the Greek, “servant” being diakonos, from which we get our word "deacon," and “slave” is doulos, or “bond-servant.”

Jesus was simply reversing the world’s way of thinking, not describing a system of “works righteousness.” Nor was Pike doing so, since he echoes the same teaching as well:

Entirely animated by His saying, that he among them should be first, who should serve with the greatest devotion, they were humble, modest, and charitable

HIs point was, after all, that Masonry teaches the same bedrock teachings that are found in all religions, and humility is considered a virtue among them all. Despite your efforts, you have not obfuscated that point.

As for the statement about the "inner man", that is New Age language, not Bible language.

Oh, really? Guess again:

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, (Eph. 3:14-16)

So, according to your way of thinking, Paul was New Age???

You seem really confused as to what the Mason's actually believe and its not helping your argument any.

The only confusion is the deliberate attempt on your part, as standard practice in practically every comment, to misconstrue what I have said. And I don't need anything to "help" my argument, since it is not an argument anyway, just a posting of the truth to refute the lies that have been told about Freemasonry.

and now you are so desperately trying to provide me with evidence that the Mason's are infact Christian.

Posted it twice and you missed it both times. "Third time's a charm," they say, maybe this will be the time you manage to read my post with any comprehension:

None can deny that Christ taught a lofty morality. “Love one another: forgive those that despitefully use you and persecute you: be pure of heart, meek, humble, contented: lay not up riches on earth, but in Heaven: submit to the powers lawfully over you: become like these little children, or ye cannot be saved, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven: forgive the repentant; and cast no stone at the sinner, if you too have sinned: do unto others as ye would have others do unto you:” such, and not abstruse questions of theology, were His simple and sublime
teachings. The early Christians followed in His footsteps. The first preachers of the faith had no thought of domination. Entirely animated by His saying, that he among them should be first, who should serve with the greatest devotion, they were humble, modest, and charitable, and they knew how
to communicate this spirit of the inner man to the churches under their direction. These churches were at first but spontaneous meetings of all Christians inhabiting the same locality. A pure and severe morality, mingled with religious enthusiasm, was the characteristic of each, and excited the admiration even of their persecutors. Everything was in common among them; their property, their joys, and their sorrows. In the silence of night they met for instruction and to pray together. Their love-feasts, or fraternal repasts, ended these reunions, in which all
differences in social position and rank were effaced in the presence of a paternal Divinity. Their sole object was to make men better, by bringing them back to a simple worship, of which universal morality was the basis; and to end those numerous and cruel sacrifices which everywhere inundated with blood the altars of the gods. Thus did Christianity reform
the world, and obey the teachings of its founder. It gave to woman her proper rank and influence; it regulated domestic life; and by admitting the
slaves to the love-feasts, it by degrees raised them above that oppression under which half of mankind had groaned for ages. This, in its purity, as taught by Christ Himself, was the true primitive religion, as communicated by God to the Patriarchs. It was no new religion, but the reproduction of the oldest of all; and its true and perfect morality is the morality of Masonry, as is the morality of every creed of
antiquity. (Morals and Dogma, p. 540-541)

I also pointed out to you that this is not to be construed as simply Pike. St. Augustine said the same thing more than a millennium earlier:

"That, in all times," says St. Augustine, "is the Christian religion, which to know and follow is the most sure and certain health, called according to that name, but not according to the thing itself, of which it is the name; for the thing itself, which is now called the Christian religion, really was known to the Ancients, nor was wanting at any time from the beginning of the human race, until the time when Christ came in the flesh; from whence the true religion, which had previously existed, began to be called Christian; and this in our days is the Christian religion, not as having been wanting in former times, but as having, in later times, received this name." (M&D, p. 262)

• Love one another; (John 15:12)
• Forgive those who despitefully use you; (Luke 11:4)
• be pure of heart, meek, humble, contented; (Matt. 5:5, 5:8, Heb. 13:5)
• lay not up riches on earth, but in Heaven; (Matt. 6:20)
• submit to the powers lawfully over you; (Heb. 13:7)
• become like these little children, or ye cannot be saved, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven; (Mark 10:14-15)
• forgive the repentant; (Matt. 18:22)
• cast no stone at the sinner, if you too have sinned; (John 8:7)
• do unto others as ye would have others do unto you; (Matt. 7:12)
• whoever among you is first, should serve with the greatest
  devotion; (Mark 10:43)
• meet for instruction and to pray together; (Heb. 10:25, James 5:16)

There you have it once again, complete with references, and complete with the main point made by Pike, and the point I emphasized all along, in bold colored highlight for easy detection.

(1) There are religious beliefs that have existed since antiquity;
(2) Much of what is taught in Christianity (especially in the Sermon on the Mount) embraces these beliefs also;
(3) These teachings are also at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry.

Nowhere at any time, in any way, shape, form, or fashion, have I stated, hinted, suggested, or implied what you claim.

Hope you're having fun with your own conversation. You're welcome to come join a conversation about what has actually been said, any time.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I asked when did Jesus ever set up an organisation that embraced all the religions?....Obviously I am referring to the Lodge, where all religions are embraced.

And just as obviously, I stated in very clear terms that my reply was not intended to be a response to that question.

Where may I ask from all of that did I set you wrong.

Well, it's a bit more expansive than that, and spread out over several posts, a remark here and one there, and not dealing specifically with anything in that particular exchange. Give me a little time to collect all the misrepresentations you have come up with, and I will post them all together in one neat little bundle so you (and everyone else, of course) can see more easily what you already know you are doing.

And even as I thus speak, I find yet another mischaracterization:

Using the example of God's house as a house of pray, in NO way sanctions the activities of the Masonic Lodge.

So please be so kind as to show me where I said anything resembling this?

You asked me when did Jesus ever set up an organisation that embraced all the religions, and I responded that I couldn't, but with a little liberty to re-phrase the question, I could show you where Jesus had no problem with the idea of people of different walks coming to the same place for prayer.

And it's exactly what He said, and has been the source of quite a few of your intentionally skewed responses that misrepresented what I said, in a way intended to fuel your failed accusations.

Using the example of God's house as a house of pray, in NO way sanctions the activities of the Masonic Lodge. You didn't go into the temple of God, and find on the altar, holy books from other false religions. There was no embracing of all religions in the temple, when those activities occured, it was always an abomination.

There's your mischaracterization again.

I REPEAT:

My remark said nothing about "religions." My remark was a quote of Jesus calling the Temple a "House of prayer for all nations." And I specifically stated already, more than once, that my point had to do, NOT with RELIGIONS, but with people FROM those religions coming to one place to PRAY.

If you can find it within you someplace, please get past your posturing and quit playing mind games with my posts.

And I think that is specific enough for anyone, provided they are sincere.

 

[Rev Wayne]

That is what being a "Christian" is, following Christ, not anyone else.

And from this flow the evidence of the fruits in one's life, which is "the way we know someone is a Christian," a sign Jesus also told us to look for.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Obviously I am referring to the Lodge, where all religions are embraced.

Always missing the mark. The Lodge embraces men from all religions, not the religions themselves. That's a very distinct difference. Freemasonry teaches moral precepts. Moral precepts are common to all religions, and many of them are identical. Masonry teaches these that are common to all religions, as detailed above in the Pike quote. That is not "embracing all religions," that is teaching religious principles that are found in all religions.

But even with that, all the men in my Lodge are Christians, you're sorta preaching to the choir.

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Quote:
Jesus said, he who desires to be greatest will be the least.


What He actually said was, “If anyone among you desires to be great, let him be your servant.” And then He took it a step further, saying, “And if anyone would be first among you, let him be slave of all.” The distinction is made between being “great” among you, or being “first,” or to put it another way, “great” or “greatest.” It is represented more clearly in the Greek, “servant” being diakonos, from which we get our word "deacon," and “slave” is doulos, or “bond-servant.”

Jesus was simply reversing the world’s way of thinking, not describing a system of “works righteousness.” Nor was Pike doing so, since he echoes the same teaching as well:

Jesus said:

"If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." Mark 9:35

And here we have Pike stating that the disciples were:

"Entirely animated by His saying, that he among them should be first, who should serve with the greatest devotion, they were humble, modest, and charitable"

Was this humility, modesty and charity motivated by the promise of being "first" for being the most devoted, or were these attributes a genuine result of love for their Lord and esteeming others greater than themselves?.

I agree Jesus was not bringing about a "works righteousness" religion, but is Pike, suggesting such?.

Quote:
As for the statement about the "inner man", that is New Age language, not Bible language.


Oh, really? Guess again:


Quote:
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, (Eph. 3:14-16)

Looking at Pauls quote as compared to Pikes, there is one remarkable difference, Paul is talking about:

"being strenghtened with might by HIS SPIRIT in the inner man" 17. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" Eph 5:16-17.

Pike's use of the term
'inner man" is different from Pauls:

"and they knew how
to communicate this spirit of the inner man to the churches under their direction"

It is Christ's Spirit that dwells in us and strengthens our "inner man", Paul doesn't use the term "spirit of the inner man", he says our inner man is strengthened by Jesus' Spirit. We don't communicate this "spirit of the inner man to others" We reflect the fruits of the Spirit (God's not ours) for others to see, but it is God's Spirit in us that does the work.. God strengthens each person by His Spirit and prepares each to hear the truth and to be fashioned after HIS IMAGE, it is nothing to do with the "spirit of the inner man" being communicated to the church.

I also pointed out to you that this is not to be construed as simply Pike. St. Augustine said the same thing more than a millennium earlier:

Just because Pike quotes St Augustine, doesn't mean that he is automatically a Christian. I haven't studied St Augustine, so I cannot comment, however I do wonder if St Augustine also acknowledged pagan deities in his religion.

There you have it once again, complete with references, and complete with the main point made by Pike, and the point I emphasized all along, in bold colored highlight for easy detection.

(1) There are religious beliefs that have existed since antiquity;
(2) Much of what is taught in Christianity (especially in the Sermon on the Mount) embraces these beliefs also;
(3) These teachings are also at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry.

Nowhere at any time, in any way, shape, form, or fashion, have I stated, hinted, suggested, or implied what you claim.

Hope you're having fun with your own conversation. You're welcome to come join a conversation about what has actually been said, any time.

Not a water tight argument. Anyone can simply quote portions of the Bible, and proclaim that they are "Christian", but both you and I know that it takes more than that to actually be a Christian.

It is interesting again, that you say that the teachings of Christ are "at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry", and yet, I thought, according to you, that the Mason's weren't a religion.

Clearly Pike also had other pagan gods whom he recognised, he even names them so considerately for us, which I see you evade addressing continuously. So much for straightening out misconceptions, you have straightened out nothing at all.

Why don't you "straighten out" the real issues, like Pike saying that the "Blazing Star" in his lodge represents three pagan gods, and yet, you say he was a "Christian", I don't see how he can be, because according to my BIBLE, he is not keeping the very first commandment, and Jesus said:

"If you love me keep my commandments"

I look forward to a "straightening out" of my "misconception" on this one.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Abbadon]

Just because Pike quotes St Augustine, doesn't mean that he is automatically a Christian. I haven't studied St Augustine, so I cannot comment, however I do wonder if St Augustine also acknowledged pagan deities in his religion.

I'm sorry, what? Did you even read the St. Augustine quote?

There's been no evidence St. Augustine was anything other than Christian. You're shadowboxing suggesting that he was a pagan.

It is interesting again, that you say that the teachings of Christ are "at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry", and yet, I thought, according to you, that the Mason's weren't a religion.

If Christianity being at the heart of Freemasonry makes it a religion, then the Boy Scouts is a religion, as are any local Christian Athletes Association school clubs. I guess Christian book stores are thier own religions as well.

Why, CF is a religion then.

Heck, Freemasonry doesn't really concern religious beliefs outside of "no atheism." If a group says "we oughta love each other and such," that doesn't make it a religion. What Rev is saying is that Freemasonry just says "we oughta love each other and such," and that one of the things that Christianity is based on is love. His Pike and St. Augustine quotes are saying "The original religion is now known as Christianity, and one of the main points of this religion is love."

Clearly Pike also had other pagan gods whom he recognised, he even names them so considerately for us

What do you mean by recognized? Simply knowing about mythology doesn't mean one is a pagan. Using a pagan figure as allegorical figure in a story doesn't make a person a pagan either.

Being able to name mythological characters doesn't affect anyone's religion.

Why don't you "straighten out" the real issues, like Pike saying that the "Blazing Star" in his lodge represents three pagan gods

Source? Context?

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Quote:
I asked when did Jesus ever set up an organisation that embraced all the religions?....Obviously I am referring to the Lodge, where all religions are embraced.

And just as obviously, I stated in very clear terms that my reply was not intended to be a response to that question.

Here is the original question and your response, could you please so kindly show me where you clearly stated that your reply was not intended to be a response to that question?

Quote:
Since when did Jesus set up an organisation that was to embrace all religions?

Well, taking the liberty of rewording the challenge just a bit, I can certainly think of a building which He set up which was to embrace people of all religious persuasions: “It is written, my house shall be a house of prayer for all nations.” Maybe you don’t figure “all nations” embraces all religions, but there’s hardly any way around it. And He certainly wasn’t saying by that, that He embraced all religious teachings—but He sure expressed the idea that they could all come into one house and pray.

I find it significant too, that you don’t find Jesus railing against “false religions” in the way some Christians do; His remarks were aimed at “false people.”

All you said was that you reworded the challenge to include a "building" that all peoples and nations could come to pray, (this to my understanding, as you never stated otherwise, was a comparison to the Lodge, being a place where people from all religions could come and pray, just like the temple.) stating that, that encluded all religions. I, however stated that all peoples and all nations could come and pray to God in God's house, not to other gods, if they held to other religions, I showed by Ezekiel that this would have been an abomination.

I don't know how you can claim that I led you off the mark. I am interested in seeing how you "bundle" it all together to prove your point.

There's your mischaracterization again.

I REPEAT:

My remark said nothing about "religions." My remark was a quote of Jesus calling the Temple a "House of prayer for all nations." And I specifically stated already, more than once, that my point had to do, NOT with RELIGIONS, but with people FROM those religions coming to one place to PRAY.

If you can find it within you someplace, please get past your posturing and quit playing mind games with my posts.

And I think that is specific enough for anyone, provided they are sincere.

How can you get people from all religions coming together to pray to the same god, if they all believe in different gods?. If they had all prayed to their different gods in the temple, it would have been an abomination, not acceptable, however, in the Lodge, it seems quite acceptable for this carry on to take place. Men from all religions are free to worship all their different gods all together, that is not a Christian organisation, and there is no way around that.

By the way, if you find me placing honest posts, in responce to your posts "mind games", then you are the one with the problem, not me, you are obviously reading into my motives more than what is there.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlin
Just because Pike quotes St Augustine, doesn't mean that he is automatically a Christian. I haven't studied St Augustine, so I cannot comment, however I do wonder if St Augustine also acknowledged pagan deities in his religion.

I'm sorry, what? Did you even read the St. Augustine quote?

There's been no evidence St. Augustine was anything other than Christian. You're shadowboxing suggesting that he was a pagan.

No, I'm not, Albert Pike was quoting St Augustine, Rev Wayne calls Albert Pike a Christian and then states that it was also St Augustines opinion as well. Which is true, my point is I wonder if St Augustine would be okay with Pike using his writings and calling himself a Christian in association with St Augustine, if he knew that Pike also embraced false deities. That is why I made the comment " I wonder if St Augustine also acknowledges false deities?" under the guess that he doesn't.

As I said, I do not know what Augustine wrote.

If Christianity being at the heart of Freemasonry makes it a religion, then the Boy Scouts is a religion, as are any local Christian Athletes Association school clubs. I guess Christian book stores are thier own religions as well.

Why, CF is a religion then.

Heck, Freemasonry doesn't really concern religious beliefs outside of "no atheism." If a group says "we oughta love each other and such," that doesn't make it a religion. What Rev is saying is that Freemasonry just says "we oughta love each other and such," and that one of the things that Christianity is based on is love. His Pike and St. Augustine quotes are saying "The original religion is now known as Christianity, and one of the main points of this religion is love."

Okay, so then it is based on religion then, Christianity. Again I ask the question, "If Freemasonry is not a religion, then why is Christianity the heart and foundation of it"?

Why do they claim not to be a religious organisation?. To me a non religious organisation is the tax department, Social Services, Insurance companies etc, not the Masons, boy scouts, Christian Bookstores, Girls Brigade, etc...

What do you mean by recognized? Simply knowing about mythology doesn't mean one is a pagan. Using a pagan figure as allegorical figure in a story doesn't make a person a pagan either.

Being able to name mythological characters doesn't affect anyone's religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlin
Why don't you "straighten out" the real issues, like Pike saying that the "Blazing Star" in his lodge represents three pagan gods

Source? Context?

Morals and Dogma, pg 506

"The Blazing Star in our lodges, we have already said, represents Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls. Our Ancient English brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun...accordingly the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All Seeing Eye, which to the Ancients was the Sun"

I know that Pike knew a lot about other religions, however, there is a difference between having a knowledge of, and implementing these deities into your own religion.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Abbadon]

Which is true, my point is I wonder if St Augustine would be okay with Pike using his writings and calling himself a Christian in association with St Augustine, if he knew that Pike also embraced false deities.

You keep saying he actually believed in pagan deities, but haven't produced any evidence arguing for it, save for misrepresentations of allegory.

Okay, so then it is based on religion then, Christianity. Again I ask the question, "If Freemasonry is not a religion, then why is Christianity the heart and foundation of it"?

I didn't say that it was based on religion. I said that if Freemasonry (which is based on the same ideas Christianity is), is a religion because of this, then groups like the Boy Scouts (which actually are based on a religion) are religions as well, instead of religious organizations.

To say "we ought to love each other" and ban atheists doesn't make a group religious.

"The Blazing Star in our lodges, we have already said, represents Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls. Our Ancient English brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun...accordingly the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All Seeing Eye, which to the Ancients was the Sun"

The Blazing Star in our Lodges, we have already said, represents Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls. Our Ancient English brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun. In the old Lectures they said: "The Blazing Star or Glory in the centre refers us to that Grand Luminary the Sun, which enlightens the Earth, and by its genial influence dispenses blessings to mankind." It is also said in those lectures to be an emblem of Prudence. The word Prudentia means, in its original and fullest signification, Foresight: and accordingly the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All-Seeing Eye, which to the Ancients was the Sun.

The bit you're skipping over is the part that's explaining that it's meant to be symbolic for prudence or foresight, a message to pay attention. Again, using a pagan deity as a symbol is not in itself pagan. Is a person pagan for comparing a strong person to Hercules? No.

I know that Pike knew a lot about other religions, however, there is a difference between having a knowledge of, and implementing these deities into your own religion.

And using mythological figures as symbols for philosophical ideas in a group that isn't based on religion.

 

[O.F.F.]

But even with that, all the men in my Lodge are Christians, you're sorta preaching to the choir.

That's like saying all the people in your church are Christians. On what basis can you state this as a fact?

A more important question pertaining to this thread is, since all Masons are NOT Christian, what is the eternal fate of those who aren't? And, if you believe Jesus when he said, "I am the Truth, the Way and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except by me," (John 14:6) then what are the implications of this for the Muslim Mason, or the Hindu Mason and all other Masons who are believers in false gods?

 

[Rev Wayne]

That's like saying all the people in your church are Christians. On what basis can you state this as a fact?

Knowing them.

since all Masons are NOT Christian

A misstatement. Perhaps you meant, "Not all Masons are Christian?"

what are the implications of this for the Muslim Mason, or the Hindu Mason and all other Masons who are believers in false gods?

No different than they are for "the Muslim, the Hindu, and all others who are believers in false gods," who are NOT Masons, of course.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I agree Jesus was not bringing about a "works righteousness" religion, but is Pike, suggesting such?.

As I said:

What He actually said was, “If anyone among you desires to be great, let him be your servant.” And then He took it a step further, saying, “And if anyone would be first among you, let him be slave of all.” (Matthew 20:26-27)

Was this humility, modesty and charity motivated by the promise of being "first" for being the most devoted, or were these attributes a genuine result of love for their Lord and esteeming others greater than themselves?.

You seem to be hard to reach with first postings. I already noted that Pike said:

they were humble, modest, and charitable

People who are “humble, modest, and charitable” are not motivated by the promise of being first. Nor is Pike urging upon anyone a selfish pursuit when he expounds upon the lessons of humility, modesty, and charity.

Pike's use of the term 'inner man" is different from Pauls:

"and they knew how to communicate this spirit of the inner man to the churches under their direction"

Too bad you couldn’t address it in context rather than modeling for us an antimason tactic of slice and dice.

The previous paragraph began, “None can deny that Christ taught a lofty morality.” The remainder of the paragraph is pursuant to that thought. Then he started the paragraph in which this quote appears, “The early Christians followed in His footsteps.” But the entire sentence reveals the emptiness of your accusation:

Entirely animated by His saying, that he among them should be first, who should serve with the greatest devotion, they were humble, modest, and charitable, and they knew how to communicate this spirit of the inner man to the churches under their direction.

We don't communicate this "spirit of the inner man to others" We reflect the fruits of the Spirit (God's not ours) for others to see, but it is God's Spirit in us that does the work.

I don’t read Pike’s intention to be any different than what you just stated.

Just because Pike quotes St Augustine, doesn't mean that he is automatically a Christian.

It doesn’t have to. It’s a known fact that Pike was a Christian of the Episcopalian faith. It’s the fact that he was a Christian that is behind the very obvious extent of Christian literature he has read. How many people of his day, do you suppose, had access to the patristic fathers to be able to quote from them at all? His was a high degree of scholarship for his day.

I haven't studied St Augustine, so I cannot comment, however I do wonder if St Augustine also acknowledged pagan deities in his religion.

Why can’t you just be content to accuse Masons, do you have to pull dead Christians into it, and merely because a Mason quoted them?

It is interesting again, that you say that the teachings of Christ are "at the heart and foundation of Freemasonry", and yet, I thought, according to you, that the Mason's weren't a religion.

A foundation of religious principles does not make a religion. Nor would I ever suppose, as you seem to have done, that "the teachings of Christ" = Christianity. That would be to ignore the sum total of His actions. But since the principles that Pike has listed are not only found in Christianity, but in all religions, which was Pike’s principal point, wouldn’t it be more accurate to suggest that the teachings of Christ are at the heart and foundation of the religious beliefs found to be common to all religions?

 

[Rev Wayne]

Clearly Pike also had other pagan gods whom he recognised, he even names them so considerately for us, which I see you evade addressing continuously.

Pike does not “recognize” them simply because he discusses them. By your logic, you yourself would be guilty of “recognizing” every “pagan god” that you have mentioned here, simply because you discussed it.

Why don't you "straighten out" the real issues, like Pike saying that the "Blazing Star" in his lodge represents three pagan gods, and yet, you say he was a "Christian"

Since you insist on repeating this simplistic analysis of Pike on the blazing star, perhaps it would be in order to straighten you out on the point.

The first thing Pike says about the Blazing Star is:

The Blazing Star in the centre is said to be "an emblem of Divine Providence, and commemorative of the star which appeared to guide the wise men of the East to the place of our Saviour's nativity." (p. 14)

NEXT:

To find in the BLAZING STAR of five points an allusion to the Divine Providence, is also fanciful; and to make it commemorative of the Star that is said to have guided the Magi, is to give it a meaning comparatively modern. Originally it represented SIRIUS, or the Dog-star, the forerunner of the inundation of the Nile; the God ANUBIS, companion of Isis in her search for the body of OSIRIS, her brother and husband. Then it became the image of HORUS, the son of OSIRIS, himself symbolized also by the Sun, the author of the Seasons, and the God of Time; Son of Isis, who was the universal nature, himself the primitive matter, inexhaustible source of Life, spark of uncreated fire, universal seed of all beings. It was HERMES, also, the Master of Learning, whose name in Greek is that of the God Mercury. It became the sacred and potent sign or character of the Magi, the PENTALPHA, and is the significant emblem of Liberty and Freedom, blazing with a steady radiance amid the weltering elements of good and evil of Revolutions, and promising serene skies and fertile seasons to the nations, after the storms of change and tumult. (p. 14-15)

What Pike is pointing out here about the blazing star is its history: He clearly prefaces the remarks about “Sirius,” “Anubis,” “Osiris,” “Isis,” “Hermes,” and “Mercury” with “Originally it represented. . . . . “

Our French Brethren place this letter YŌD in the centre of the Blazing Star. And in the old Lectures, our ancient English Brethren said, "The Blazing Star or Glory in the centre refers us to that grand luminary, the Sun, which enlightens the earth, and by its genial influence dispenses blessings to mankind." They called it also in the same lectures, an emblem of PRUDENCE. The word Prudentia means, in its original and fullest signification, Foresight; and, accordingly, the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All-seeing Eye, which to the Egyptian Initiates was the emblem of Osiris, the Creator. With the YŌD in the centre, it has the kabalistic meaning of the Divine Energy, manifested as Light, creating the Universe. (p. 15-16)

“Our ancient brethren,” a phrase you seem to have picked up on earlier, said of the Star in the old lectures that it “refers us to” the sun. It is also said to be an emblem of prudence or foresight, and thus an emblem of omniscience. Nothing there about "other gods."

FIVE is the Duad added to the Triad. It is expressed by the five-pointed or blazing star, the mysterious Pentalpha of Pythagoras. It is indissolubly connected with the number seven. Christ fed His disciples and the multitude with five loaves and two fishes, and of the fragments there remained twelve, that is, five and seven, baskets full. Again He fed them with seven loaves and a few little fishes, and there remained seven baskets full. The five apparently small planets, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, with the two greater ones, the Sun and Moon, constituted the seven celestial spheres. (p. 58)

The Ancient Astronomers saw all the great Symbols of Masonry in the Stars. Sirius still glitters in our Lodges as the Blazing Star, (l’Etoile Flamboyante). (p. 486)

The Blazing Star in our Lodges, we have already said, represents Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury, Guardian and Guide of Souls. Our Ancient English brethren also considered it an emblem of the Sun. In the old Lectures they said: "The Blazing Star or Glory in the centre refers us to that Grand Luminary the Sun, which enlightens the Earth, and by its genial influence dispenses blessings to mankind." It is also said in those lectures to be an emblem of Prudence. The word Prudentia means, in its original and fullest signification, Foresight: and accordingly the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All-Seeing Eye, which to the Ancients was the Sun. (p. 506)

That puts it in a different light. Pike was referring to his own earlier comment, and he was clearer in the first instance than he was in this citation of it. He says here, “we have already said, represents . . . .” etc., etc.

Begging his pardon, but no, he had not “already said” that. What he HAD already said, if you look back at p. 15-16, was that it “ORIGINALLY” represented those things. Again, consistent with his pattern throughout the book, his discussion of "other religions" and/or "other gods" is not a description of what is in Masonry, but of what was in ancient religions.

Over the throne is a great Eagle, in gold, on a black ground. In the centre of the Canopy the Blazing Star in gold, with the letter Yōd in its centre. On the right and left of the throne are the Sun in gold and the Moon in silver. The throne is ascended to by three Steps. The hall and ante-room are each lighted by ten lights, and a single one at the entrance. The colors, black, white, and crimson appear in the clothing; and the Key and Balance are among the symbols. (p. 786)

"The birth of the Sun is always announced by its Star, represented by the Blazing Star, which you will know by its fiery color; and it is followed in its course by the silvery lustre of the Moon. (p. 787)

All hypotheses scientifically probable are the last gleams of the twilight of knowledge, or its last shadows. Faith begins where Reason sinks exhausted. Beyond the human Reason is the Divine Reason, to our feebleness the great Absurdity, the Infinite Absurd, which confounds us and which we believe. For the Master, the Compass of Faith is above the Square of Reason; but both rest upon the Holy Scriptures and combine to form the Blazing Star of Truth. (p. 841)

Magic is the science of the Ancient Magi: and the Christian religion, which has imposed silence on the lying oracles, and put an end to the prestiges of the false Gods, itself reveres those Magi who came from the East, guided by a Star, to adore the Saviour of the world in His cradle.
Tradition also gives these Magi the title of "Kings;" because initiation into Magism constitutes a genuine royalty; and because the grand art of the Magi is styled by all the Adepts, "The Royal Art," or the Holy Realm or Empire, Sanctum Regnum.
The Star which guided them is that same Blazing Star, the image whereof we find in all initiations. To the Alchemists it is the sign of the Quintessence; to the Magists, the Grand Arcanum; to the Kabalists, the Sacred Pentagram. The study of this Pentagram could not but lead the Magi to the knowledge of the New Name which was about to raise itself above all names, and cause all creatures capable of adoration to bend the knee. (p. 841-2)

So you wish to speak of the first commandment in relation to Pike’s discussion of the Blazing Star? Let’s find the pertinent points from the above quotes that will show whether or not what you say is true:

Most of them are not asserting anything that may be taken in any regard to the first commandment at all. In fact, it is not until the very last quote that one may be found:

Magic is the science of the Ancient Magi: and the Christian religion, which has imposed silence on the lying oracles, and put an end to the prestiges of the false Gods, itself reveres those Magi who came from the East, guided by a Star, to adore the Saviour of the world in His cradle.

"Imposed silence on the lying oracles," setting Christianity above the rest, of course; and He calls Jesus the “Saviour of the world.” Surely that does not violate the first commandment?

The study of this Pentagram could not but lead the Magi to the knowledge of the New Name which was about to raise itself above all names, and cause all creatures capable of adoration to bend the knee.

“Name above all names” and “every knee shall bow?” How is that a first commandment violation?

 

[Rev Wayne]

How can you get people from all religions coming together to pray to the same god, if they all believe in different gods?.

By agreeing that when they come together, they will simply pray to the Creator. How many creators are there, DW?

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

You keep saying he actually believed in pagan deities, but haven't produced any evidence arguing for it, save for misrepresentations of allegory.

Oh, so I guess Pike must have meant that The Blazing Star in our lodges represents the Nativity Star, or the Sun of righteousness and not Sirius, Anubis, or Mercury.

I didn't say that it was based on religion. I said that if Freemasonry (which is based on the same ideas Christianity is), is a religion because of this, then groups like the Boy Scouts (which actually are based on a religion) are religions as well, instead of religious organizations.

To say "we ought to love each other" and ban atheists doesn't make a group religious.

Masons claim to be neither religious or a religious organisation. And yet, in most lodges you are not allowed to be and "athiest" and join the lodge. Huh??? makes no sense.

This still makes no sense in the light of Rev Waynes comment that the teachings of Christ are the heart and foundation of Masonry.

The bit you're skipping over is the part that's explaining that it's meant to be symbolic for prudence or foresight, a message to pay attention. Again, using a pagan deity as a symbol is not in itself pagan. Is a person pagan for comparing a strong person to Hercules? No.

And lets just ignore the first sentence and maybe it will just disappear.

It is so Paganism when you are calling them "Guardian and guide of our Souls". This titile belongs to God alone, not pagan gods.

Why is it neccessary to use pagan deities to represent these attributes. God represents these well enough.

Yourself and Rev Wayne are "skipping over" these very important points. Christianity and Paganism don't mix. Full Stop. Albert Pike clearly doesn't seem to have a problem with using Pagan symbols. He is NOT Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlin
I know that Pike knew a lot about other religions, however, there is a difference between having a knowledge of, and implementing these deities into your own religion.

And using mythological figures as symbols for philosophical ideas in a group that isn't based on religion

If Christianity was the heart and foundation of your organisation why on earth would you want to use "mythological figures" to symbolise your philosophical ideas. Christ used parables that could be implemented into the every day life of the people he taught, that seemed to work quite efficiently. He never referred icons from Satan's religious systems to represent His truths.

I am a Christian with young children, if I wished to portray to them the importance of certain virtues, like prudence, fidelity, love, etc, would it be more appropriate for me to use pagan deity symbology or to teach them about Christ and His character?.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello

Quote:
How can you get people from all religions coming together to pray to the same god, if they all believe in different gods?.



By agreeing that when they come together, they will simply pray to the Creator. How many creators are there, DW?

Well for starters, New Age Theology believes Lucifer to be the creator, Muslims believe Allah to be the creator, I understand Hindu's or Buddists don't believe that the Christian God is the creator.

So.......it certainly would be interesting trying to get them to all pray to the same Creator.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Quote:
I agree Jesus was not bringing about a "works righteousness" religion, but is Pike, suggesting such?.


As I said:

What He actually said was, “If anyone among you desires to be great, let him be your servant.” And then He took it a step further, saying, “And if anyone would be first among you, let him be slave of all.” (Matthew 20:26-27)

And how, does that address anything that Pike was saying? I too quoted Jesus saying that any who desired to be first shall be last. What exactly is your point here?

People who are “humble, modest, and charitable” are not motivated by the promise of being first. Nor is Pike urging upon anyone a selfish pursuit when he expounds upon the lessons of humility, modesty, and charity.

When Pike states that they were told, that those who should serve with the most devotion would be first, and the disciples were humble, modest and charitable, was that motivated by a works based religion?. Look at the rich young ruler, he kept the law, outwardly, but inwardly he was selfish. One can appear to have these attributes outwardly and be selfish inwardly.

Jesus never said that those who serve with the greatest devotion would be first.

I don’t read Pike’s intention to be any different than what you just stated.

Of course you don't, you want Masonry and Christianity to gel. I believe it to be a sly misrepresentation of what Paul taught, while under the pretense of actually being in agreeance with his teachings.

It doesn’t have to. It’s a known fact that Pike was a Christian of the Episcopalian faith. It’s the fact that he was a Christian that is behind the very obvious extent of Christian literature he has read. How many people of his day, do you suppose, had access to the patristic fathers to be able to quote from them at all? His was a high degree of scholarship for his day.

Using your logical reasoning. It is obvious that Pike was a Pagan that is behind the very obvious extent of Pagan literature he has read.

Quote:
I haven't studied St Augustine, so I cannot comment, however I do wonder if St Augustine also acknowledged pagan deities in his religion.


Why can’t you just be content to accuse Masons, do you have to pull dead Christians into it, and merely because a Mason quoted them?

I explained what I meant by that comment, it was in fact the exact opposite that I was implying. I guess I was being a little sarcastic. I am sorry for being sarcastic, but I certainly was not bringing down dead Christians. Like I said, I haven't studied Augustine, so how would I know what he believed to even make a serious statement.

A foundation of religious principles does not make a religion. Nor would I ever suppose, as you seem to have done, that "the teachings of Christ" = Christianity. That would be to ignore the sum total of His actions. But since the principles that Pike has listed are not only found in Christianity, but in all religions, which was Pike’s principal point, wouldn’t it be more accurate to suggest that the teachings of Christ are at the heart and foundation of the religious beliefs found to be common to all religions?

Our church has 28 fundamentals, these form the foundation of our religion. These are all Bible and Jesus based, these are what makes us a "Christian" church, we follow the life and teachings of Christ.

Nobody would even bother to follow Jesus if He hadn't lived according to His own teachings. Many religions however don't even believe in Jesus, so how can you say that His teachings can be found common in all religions.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[O.F.F.]

Well for starters, New Age Theology believes Lucifer to be the creator, Muslims believe Allah to be the creator, I understand Hindu's or Buddists don't believe that the Christian God is the creator.

So.......it certainly would be interesting trying to get them to all pray to the same Creator.

Harlin, as an Ex-Mason for Jesus, I tell you how they do it. They do it by presuming all concepts of the Creator are one in the same; just as the Masonic Rev. Wayne is trying to suggest.

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the (singular) Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41 (emphasis added)

You have learned that Freemasonry calls God, 'The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.). This is the Freemason's special name for God, because he is universal. He belongs to all men regardless of their religious persuasion. All wise men acknowledge His authority. In his private devotions a Mason will pray to Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, Jesus or the Deity of his choice. In a Masonic Lodge, however, the Mason will find the name of his Deity within the G.A.O.T.U.

- Page 6, The Craft and Its Symbols by Allen E. Roberts (emphasis added)

We, as Masons, believe that there is only one Supreme Being. You may refer to that Supreme Being as you please. You may ask the blessings of Jehovah, Allah, Yod, Mohammad, or any other Supreme Being that you believe in. We make no distinctions in what you believe that Supreme Being's name is. This is your preference and the preference of all Masons everywhere."

WHAT ARE THE SECRETS OF FREEMASONS? by William Larson, 33° Kenton Lodge #145, Oregon USA (emphasis added)

Harlin, I admire your tenacity. But keep in mind, an apostate will do everything he can to cover up his apostasy in order to defend the indefensible, even if it means to pretend that he honors our Lord. But as Jesus said in Matthew 15:8, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."