Masons

[ReluctantProphet]

And I would like to see the Bible removed from the Altar and see a blank VSL instead. But that's me.

"..a blank VSL"?

 

[JasonV]

"..a blank VSL"?

VSL = Volume of Sacred Law. This idea is being tossed around among quite a few Masons around the US.

 

[JasonV]

Not really. Praying a prayer in Jesus' name is not "discussing religion." Whether in open lodge or in refreshment, I have yet to hear discussions over religion or politics.

I quite disagree. You would receive quite a few frowns from my Lodge were you to pray in Jesus name.

I'm not sure what this is based on, but I can't think of a Mason I've ever met who would agree with this.

The Three Pillars message board, a Mason board, is where you'll find plenty of Masons agreeing on this.

At least you're aware we have the Bible there (and that is true of every Grand Lodge in this country). Some people seem to think differently.

I can accept it on the altar as a metaphor, but I'd still like to see something else like a blank book representational of all VSL's.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I quite disagree. You would receive quite a few frowns from my Lodge were you to pray in Jesus name.

But here in the Bible Belt it is more common than not.

The Three Pillars message board, a Mason board, is where you'll find plenty of Masons agreeing on this.

"Plenty of Masons" on one forum board does not establish Masonic opinion. Every lodge I visit here, there are pamphlets displayed which offer information about Scottish Rite Masonry and York Rite Masonry. District-wide meetings and special gatherings here are often held at the Mid-City Shrine Club in a city nearby. Any suggestion that Masons view only the Blue Degrees as Freemasonry is absurd. Why, if that were true, we could easily refute most of the antimason objections, since most of them are based on what they imagine takes place in the "higher degrees."

I'd still like to see something else like a blank book representational of all VSL's.

I would have some reservations about it as an issue of sincerity, particularly in kissing the book. But I would go further than that and point out that the reason for having the choice at all is so that the candidate can take his obligation upon the book of his own faith, because it is presumed that by taking the oath upon the book in which he believes, it will have a more binding effect upon his mind and conscience. How would that even be possible with blank pages?

Such a change would also void the practice of turning the pages to the particular verses upon which it lies open in each of the Blue Lodge degrees. With blank pages, the content would be no different, so why have a different one for each degree?

While you're at it, you might as well white out the words for quite a significant portion of the rituals themselves, which quote the Bible exclusively among all the VSL's under consideration. And something will have to be created to substitute for Hiram and the building of King Solomon's temple, since it's a religion-specific allegory as well. (Of course, there are some, I suppose, who could make it Sulaiman and get by.)

I think those who wish by introducing a "blank VSL" to try to do away with a direct connectional relationship between the Bible and Freemasonry, have little understanding of just how deep the connection goes. Changing to blank pages would a superficial move at best, in an institution founded upon and saturated with biblical truths and principles.

 

[O.F.F.]

I quite disagree. You would receive quite a few frowns from my Lodge were you to pray in Jesus name. . . I can accept it on the altar as a metaphor, but I'd still like to see something else like a blank book representational of all VSL's.

Bravo Jason, bravo!

It's about time a real Mason showed up to tell the truth about Freemasonry. All this talk about it being so "Christian" was making me sick.

Finally, we have an active Mason who can testify that the Masonic Lodge will NOT place Jesus above any other god, or the Bible above any other book consider "sacred" by any other religion. After all, as far as Freemasonry is concern, they're just metaphors or symbols; with Jesus representative of all "Messiah" figures and the Bible representative of all VSL's.

I bet Jason can bring more Masons here to back up what he is saying than Wayne can to support his absurd claims.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

How would that even be possible with blank pages?

"Blank page book" = the void, total randomness, anarchy.

"The Fellowship of the Anarchical Masons"; sworn and beheld to build all things solidly downward; the order of the eternal unbinding, deconstruction, and randomizing of fellow man.

Kind of speaks volumes to the hearing ear.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Bravo Jason, bravo!

It's about time a real Mason showed up to tell the truth about Freemasonry. All this talk about it being so "Christian" was making me sick.

Finally, we have an active Mason who can testify that the Masonic Lodge will NOT place Jesus above any other god, or the Bible above any other book consider "sacred" by any other religion. After all, as far as Freemasonry is concern, they're just metaphors or symbols; with Jesus representative of all "Messiah" figures and the Bible representative of all VSL's.

I bet Jason can bring more Masons here to back up what he is saying than Wayne can to support his absurd claims.

You seem to be entirely missing the point.

If JasonV did as you suggested, he would merely provide further and substantial evidence that Masonry is NOT anti-Christian or pagan worship.

Both Wayne and Jason have been supporting the concern that Masons as an order, do not worship any particular anything, because they focus on the common fundamental constructs to any stable society.

Something like trust worthiness between members of a society is a common element to any and all religions or groups of any sort. To have trust, there must be reverence to SOMETHING from the members.

The Masons concern themselves with the presence of reverence itself as a necessary element for stable society. When you presume them to be a religion with a specific God, you cast them into the role of being the owner, king, or dictator of the society being built rather than the just the builders.

Just because they know how to design and build a solidly founded building, doesn't mean they own it or necessarily even occupy it past the building of it.

You seem to be blaming anyone who knows far more than you on a subject for being responsible for everything you didn't know about it. You are confusing the League of City Engineers with the Mayor's offices.

In a sense, they are saying, "Regardless of WHAT kind of religion or city, or nation, or whatever YOU want built, there are certain fundamental things that are required and these are thus..."

You might disagree on their teachings, but the point is that they are not worshiping this god or that, but the basic needs of construction of anything. To say that they are pagan worshippers is almost exactly like saying that Science worships the Pantheist God and is thus anti-Christian. Scientists are often anti-religion due to what the religious tend to say, but Science itself is not anti-Christian (unless "Christian" becomes anti-Jesus, anyway).

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Actually the Anti-Mason stands for the deconstruction of the construction of anything.

It is much like the anti-boson particle which disrupts the bindings of any particle and thus eventually even the disruption of its own cause. It aims at the goal of purified insanity and thus, anti-life = pure Evil (by definition).

It is the anti-Jesus in that Jesus stood for the means for mutual support (brotherly love). It is characterized and personified in the film, The Fifth Element as the great “ball of fire”. And it is the product of the limited minds of lesser man trying to be free of Reality while being puppeted by those intending to build a new form for mankind by first destroying all traces of the old. And it wouldn’t be a problem if those new age designers actually knew the better design, but they clearly show that they don’t.

The “Great Architect of the Universe” merely represents those things that actually work versus those things that don’t work. It forms that very “firmament” spoken of in Geneses. The Mason is much like the true scientist who confirms and stands by that which has been demonstrated to actually be solid and dependable. The Anti-Mason has only those things that do not work and are untrustworthy to stand for by opposing the Mason.

 

[Rev Wayne]

It's about time a real Mason showed up to tell the truth about Freemasonry.

Nice touch. I've seen some self-contradictions before, but this one takes the grand prize: coming here and berating Christian Masons because you view them as less than Christian, and then turning around and cheering the post of one who appears to be non-Christian. But apparently it doesn't stop there:

All this talk about it being so Christian was making me sick.

You're being sickened at the mention of Christianity by a Christian? Where in the world does that fit into your belief system?

I bet Jason can bring more Masons here to back up what he is saying than Wayne can to support his absurd claims.

Your praise of Jason the Mason is duly noted.

But first, let's clarify exactly what those "claims" are, from the post just prior to your response, before we allow them to be mischaracterized as "absurd." Since you wish to describe them as "claims," then I can detect seven distinct claims in what was said:

You would receive quite a few frowns from my Lodge were you to pray in Jesus name.

But here in the Bible Belt it is more common than not.

Claim #1: You will more commonly find Masons in the Bible Belt who pray “in Jesus’ name” (extemporaneously being the intent, of course).

I know it to be true in every lodge I've visited across this state. It's also true in Texas:

Rev. James Draper, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Life Way Christian Resources (formerly the Sunday School Board), resigned from Estelle Lodge No. 582 in Euless, Texas, in 1984 after election for his second term as president of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) and as the Masonic controversy was heating up in the SBC. He had transferred his membership from Dell City Lodge No. 536 in Oklahoma when he became pastor of the First Baptist Church of Euless. In his letter of resignation, Draper, who served one year as chaplain of his Lodge, said he always concluded his prayers "in Jesus' name." ("Praying in Lodge," by Gary Leazer)

It is also true in Alabama, and in that particular jurisdiction, it is even established by pronouncement of the Grand Lodge:

13.8. SECTARIANISM — A Mason offering prayer in the Lodge may pray to his God observing his own conception of Deity. It is therefore proper and in accordance with Masonic law and tenets for a Mason who believes in the Christ or Jesus to offer prayer in the Lodge in His Name. None should take umbrage because he addresses his prayer to his own conception of Deity. He must use prayer in the Ritual in all ritualistic ceremonies. Any other prayer is out of order in such ceremonies.

I could go on, but will say for sake of brevity that I could quote other pieces from other jurisdictions that would show the same. I have been in dialogue with friends from Tennessee who profess the same, that "in Jesus' name" is used to end extemporaneous prayers on a regular basis during lodge.


Claim #2: Any suggestion that Masons view only the Blue Degrees as Freemasonry is absurd.

So Michael, if you wish to refute my claims, there are certain points you have made on your website, continuously and repeatedly, that you will now have to concede, since you seem to agree with Jason that Masons view only the Blue Degrees as Freemasonry.

I'd still like to see something else like a blank book representational of all VSL's.

I would have some reservations about it as an issue of sincerity, particularly in kissing the book. But I would go further than that and point out that the reason for having the choice at all is so that the candidate can take his obligation upon the book of his own faith, because it is presumed that by taking the oath upon the book in which he believes, it will have a more binding effect upon his mind and conscience. How would that even be possible with blank pages?

Claim #3: The reason the choice is given to the individual is, it is presumed to be more binding if the candidate is obligated upon the book of his religious faith.

The fact is, that “book of faith” has been the Bible in the majority of lodges around the world. And “Volume of Sacred Law” is itself a reference to the Bible, the others are an allowable substitute for a candidate who is not a Christian, if the candidate objects to being obligated on the Bible. As the UGLE states it:

4. The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open in the Lodges. Every Candidate is required to take his obligation on that book or on the Volume which is held by his particular creed to impart sanctity to an oath or promise taken upon it.

I can certainly understand the objection, and it is a valid one. If someone had tried to get me to take an obligation on the Koran, I’d have had objections too.

Such a change would also void the practice of turning the pages to the particular verses upon which it lies open in each of the Blue Lodge degrees.

Claim #4: The Bible on the altar in open lodge is turned to a different scripture depending on which degree the lodge upon which the lodge was opened.

A no-brainer. Psalm 133 for the first degree, Amos 7:7-8 for the second, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 in the third.

While you're at it, you might as well white out the words for quite a significant portion of the rituals themselves, which quote the Bible exclusively among all the VSL's under consideration.

Claim #5: Among VSL’s, the Holy Bible alone is quoted in the rituals of Freemasonry.

Unless you can show otherwise (which to date no one has), this claim has not been refuted by Jason or you or anyone else.

And something will have to be created to substitute for Hiram and the building of King Solomon's temple, since it's a religion-specific allegory as well.

Claim #6: Masonry’s symbolic lessons are centered around a religion-specific allegory about King Solomon’s temple.

Where did you see this refuted, or for that matter even mentioned, in anything Jason said?

I think those who wish by introducing a "blank VSL" to try to do away with a direct connectional relationship between the Bible and Freemasonry, have little understanding of just how deep the connection goes. Changing to blank pages would a superficial move at best, in an institution founded upon and saturated with biblical truths and principles.

Claim #7: There is a connection between Masonry and the Holy Bible which goes much deeper than the presence of the Holy Bible upon the altar.

The candidate is urged to read the Bible, to make it the “rule and guide” of his faith, it is cited again and again in ritual, the Bible is open upon one of three scriptural passages for each of the Blue Degrees, it is the “Great Light of Masonry,” it is the ground for the moral precepts taught throughout. . . .I could say more, but how could anyone not get the picture that the Bible’s place in Masonry is not just sitting on the altar?



Strange, I don't see where a single claim in what I just posted has been even significantly addressed, much less refuted, and certainly no evidence of anything at all that would justify calling them "absurd."

 

[O.F.F.]

You're being sickened at the mention of Christianity by a Christian?

No, I am sickened by the idea that someone who is supposed to be a "Christian" pastor has been trying to insist that Masonic heresy is compatible with biblical Christianity, ever since he became a Mason. The idea that heresy can be compatible with Christianity is the absurdity I'm referring to.

Claim #1: You will more commonly find Masons in the Bible Belt who pray “in Jesus’ name” (extemporaneously being the intent, of course).

Masons in the "Bible Belt" don't speak for ALL of Freemasonry. And, these same Grand Lodges in the South have demonstrated their minority status by being the only set of Grand Lodges in the U.S. that have yet to recognize Prince Hall (African American Masons) as legitimate. This, of course, fly's in the face of any idea of "brotherly love" and make Bible belt Masons look like a bunch of hypocrites.

Extemporaneously indeed, because Masonic Ritual does not include or allow prayers written in them to end in "Jesus name" as stated by one of your sources:

340 SECTARIANISM - WHAT IS NOT

A Mason offering prayer in the Lodge may pray to his God -- observing his own conception of Deity. It is therefore proper and in accordance with Masonic law and tenants for a Mason who believes in the Christ or Jesus to offer prayer in the lodge in His Name. None should take umbrage because he addresses his prayer to his own conception of Deity. He must use prayer in the Ritual in all ritualistic ceremonies. Any other prayer is out of order in such ceremonies.

Masonic Code of Alabama, p. 141-2, 1963

In other words, they may tolerate it outside of ritual ceremony, but most lodges will not tolerate it during ritual degree work. And, if they do, like the Grand Lodge of Alabama says, such prayer is out of order. The Grand Lodge of Minnesota would agree:

Concerning Prayer

Masonic custom dictates that the Lodge be opened and closed with prayer. It is always proper to address the Supreme Being as "The Great Architect of the Universe." Addressing the Deity in prayer at Masonic functions should never be done in a way that excludes Brothers of other faiths and of necessity should be inclusive and universal, not sectarian or denominational.

MASONIC MANUAL and Monitorial Instructions, Grand Lodge of Minnesota, Revised Edition 1998, page 17

Claim #2: Any suggestion that Masons view only the Blue Degrees as Freemasonry is absurd.

I never made such a claim, that's between you and the Mason in disagreement with you -- JasonV.

Claim #5: Among VSL’s, the Holy Bible alone is quoted in the rituals of Freemasonry.

Unless you can show otherwise (which to date no one has), this claim has not been refuted by Jason or you or anyone else.

This claim is true, but what has been refuted is the fact that in every instance what is quoted from the Bible is taken out of context. And, you and no one else has proven otherwise.

Claim #6: Masonry’s symbolic lessons are centered around a religion-specific allegory about King Solomon’s temple.

Where did you see this refuted, or for that matter even mentioned, in anything Jason said?

Where are you getting this from? I never said anything about it either.

Claim #7: There is a connection between Masonry and the Holy Bible which goes much deeper than the presence of the Holy Bible upon the altar.

The candidate is urged to read the Bible, to make it the “rule and guide” of his faith,

As a Mason, I thought so too, until I took heed and began to read the Bible. As my Masonic testimony indicates, if a candidate or member sincerely reads the Bible it will lead them to Jesus Christ and out of the Masonic Lodge; due to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry. If after reading it and making a full comparison to what it teaches regarding God, the significance of Christ and salvation relative to what Freemasonry teaches on these subjects, they refuse to leave the Lodge, then they are ignoring the truth, walking in denial and stand in deliberate rebellion against God.

 

[JasonV]

But here in the Bible Belt it is more common than not.

I can believe that actually. That's more of a cultural thing than anything else I would think.

"Plenty of Masons" on one forum board does not establish Masonic opinion.

True enough. But these are generally younger Masons like myself who after reviewing history, recognize that before the Scottish and York rites, there were only a handful of degrees (perhaps just two) and those degrees are present today in the Blue Lodge. Everything else is of a much later date and is, in my view, disposable.

Any suggestion that Masons view only the Blue Degrees as Freemasonry is absurd.

I think I would argue that we could simply do away with Scottish rite, York rite, the Shrine, Eastern Star, etc and we'd still have all the degrees necessary for a man to be a Master Mason. Maybe that clarifies my position?

Why, if that were true, we could easily refute most of the antimason objections, since most of them are based on what they imagine takes place in the "higher degrees."

I refute them by saying that the so-called higher degrees are not true freemasonry. They are extension degrees which attempt to elaborate on the first three degrees (although the Royal Arch degree is considered by some to be part of the original Blue Lodge info/degrees.)

I would have some reservations about it as an issue of sincerity, particularly in kissing the book. But I would go further than that and point out that the reason for having the choice at all is so that the candidate can take his obligation upon the book of his own faith, because it is presumed that by taking the oath upon the book in which he believes, it will have a more binding effect upon his mind and conscience. How would that even be possible with blank pages?

If you are a Deist.

I think those who wish by introducing a "blank VSL" to try to do away with a direct connectional relationship between the Bible and Freemasonry, have little understanding of just how deep the connection goes. Changing to blank pages would a superficial move at best, in an institution founded upon and saturated with biblical truths and principles.

Neither myself nor any other Mason I know is advocating altering the ritual and the Biblical quotations therein. We're suggesting an alternative to the book on the altar for the sake of neutrality on the issue of Religion. Several members of my own lodge are not Christians, and claim membership in no religion.

Bravo Jason, bravo!

It's about time a real Mason showed up to tell the truth about Freemasonry. All this talk about it being so "Christian" was making me sick.

Make no mistake, Brother Wayne is as much a Mason as I am. I will not allow anyone to suggest otherwise buddy.

Finally, we have an active Mason who can testify that the Masonic Lodge will NOT place Jesus above any other god, or the Bible above any other book consider "sacred" by any other religion. After all, as far as Freemasonry is concern, they're just metaphors or symbols; with Jesus representative of all "Messiah" figures and the Bible representative of all VSL's.

While I may disagree with the Christians who try so hard to demonstrate that Freemasonry is 100% compatible with the dogmatic stance of orthodox Christianity, I have no doubt that bro. Wayne is an active Mason.

But you still fail to understand that Freemasonry is not a Religion. Which I think is a fundamental flaw in your logic.

I bet Jason can bring more Masons here to back up what he is saying than Wayne can to support his absurd claims.

Probably not. Mine is a new view in Freemasonry, whereas Bro. Wayne's is the traditional view.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Geeezzz.. "Hateful hearted Masonry"

Now there's a sad sight, but explains a lot. It seems that dear Lucifer has really done a number on man in even dividing the Masons.

Looks like ole Melchizedek has some seriously high booty to kick this time.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

JasonV and O.O.F,

For future reference, the term "Black Mason" is sometimes confused with a racial issue and Prince Hall although really is referring, by those with eyes to see, to the "Black Hearted (or hateful) Mason". You might need to ease the conflict a bit by keeping that in mind.

Also keep it on a back shelf somewhere that anti-matter is astable and cannot maintain itself for long even without any interference from the "positive" universe. What that means to humanity is that a hate oriented society although a potential for existence, is short term at best even if it is totally isolated from others. This means that in the long run, hate founded constructs fail to entropy and vanish from humanity (along with those insisting on its worthiness).

 

[Rev Wayne]

The idea that heresy can be compatible with Christianity is the absurdity

The only absurdity here is that a system which arose from biblical teaching and principles can be called “incompatible” with Christianity. You might as well declare that the Bible is incompatible with Christianity.

Masons in the "Bible Belt" don't speak for ALL of Freemasonry.

I never claimed that they did—which is yet another supposed “claim” you got wrong.

And, these same Grand Lodges in the South have demonstrated their minority status by being the only set of Grand Lodges in the U.S. that have yet to recognize Prince Hall (African American Masons) as legitimate. This, of course, fly's in the face of any idea of "brotherly love" and make Bible belt Masons look like a bunch of hypocrites.

Not really, when you consider that the ones which have had dialogue on the matter have gotten nowhere, because Prince Hall Masons discouraged it. It seems they have a wrong take on Masonry as well, viewing it as a place of authority and power, and so they reject recognition plans for fear of giving something up. The North Carolina case was well-publicized and is typical. My best friend from seminary is a Prince Hall Mason. I’d gladly talk with him about Masonic things, but he will not, and it’s not because of any offense he takes to my membership, either. It’s for fear of the loss of status that would result for him if his brothers found out.

Extemporaneously indeed, because Masonic Ritual does not include or allow prayers written in them to end in "Jesus name" as stated by one of your sources:

Well, I certainly agree the source I quoted says that, or I wouldn’t have posted it, now would I? I said very plainly and directly that it was extemporaneous prayer I was talking about. It takes place in lodge even more regularly than the degree prayers, of course, making it very plain that most of the prayers offered in our lodge are indeed “in Jesus’ name.”

But praying “in Jesus’ name” is not a requirement even for Christian prayers, the accusers belabor this point far more than it merits. How many churches are there, do you suppose, that regularly say the Lord’s Prayer together each Sunday?—and yet nowhere in that prayer did Jesus require it to be “in Jesus’ name. In fact, it doesn’t mention ANY name for God in that prayer, it begins “our Father,” which is an attribute, and not a name, of deity. Sure, it says "hallowed be thy name," but it doesn't specify the name. It says “Thy” kingdom come, “Thy” will be done—which is a pronoun, not a name.

How strange it is to get so much accusation thrown our way about “generic” prayers in the Lodge, when the most popular Christian prayer I can think of is a generic prayer also.

[#2] I never made such a claim, that's between you and the Mason in disagreement with you -- JasonV.

I’m not addressing your claims, I’m addressing mine. You claimed they were "absurd," so I went back to the post immediately prior to your accusation, lifted my claims out to show more distinctly what I was saying (since you didn’t even seem to understand what claims you were denigrating), and then I showed, one by one, why your accusation of absurdity was in error.

Really, you can’t bring any claims you have made into this, unless you were also claiming your own claims were absurd, correct?

This is not about you, after all. J

This claim is true, but what has been refuted is the fact that in every instance what is quoted from the Bible is taken out of context. And, you and no one else has proven otherwise.

You're the one making the accusation, clearly the burden of proof rests with you, not anyone else. I stated above that three distinct passages were repeated during the degrees, and the Bible is opened to each one depending on which degree work is being done. Show me where you feel Masonry takes them out of context. You’re always making this claim, but never offering anything substantive to corroborate it.

[#6] Where are you getting this from? I never said anything about it either.

I’m getting it from my post, which appeared directly above your entry post on this page. And don’t pretend that when you say I am making “absurd” claims, that you can bypass said claims with this inane protest. I never claimed you said any of these things, and that applies to all 7 I listed. YOU were the one saying things, and what you specifically said was, my claims were “absurd.”

Now, how “absurd” can you get, thinking I can’t address those claims?

As a Mason, I thought so too, until I took heed and began to read the Bible.

Ah, so you were a good Mason and took heed, and DID make it your rule and guide for your faith.

As my Masonic testimony indicates, if a candidate or member sincerely reads the Bible it will lead them to Jesus Christ and out of the Masonic Lodge; due to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry.

What you fail to mention here that you include in your testimony, is that it was not the Bible that brought that about, but the John Ankerberg show. And we certainly know how absurd HIS claims are, and what a liar he has been proven to be by Art DeHoyos and Brent Morris in their book at the following link:

Is it True What They Say About Freemasonry?

 

[JasonV]

JasonV and O.O.F,

For future reference, the term "Black Mason" is sometimes confused with a racial issue and Prince Hall although really is referring, by those with eyes to see, to the "Black Hearted (or hateful) Mason". You might need to ease the conflict a bit by keeping that in mind.

Also keep it on a back shelf somewhere that anti-matter is astable and cannot maintain itself for long even without any interference from the "positive" universe. What that means to humanity is that a hate oriented society although a potential for existence, is short term at best even if it is totally isolated from others. This means that in the long run, hate founded constructs fail to entropy and vanish from humanity (along with those insisting on its worthiness).

I know about Prince Hall Masonry, but I really have no idea what you're trying to say here bud. Are you accusing me of tearing apart the universe with my contention?

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Not really, when you consider that the ones which have had dialogue on the matter have gotten nowhere, because Prince Hall Masons discouraged it. It seems they have a wrong take on Masonry as well, viewing it as a place of authority and power, and so they reject recognition plans for fear of giving something up. The North Carolina case was well-publicized and is typical. My best friend from seminary is a Prince Hall Mason. I’d gladly talk with him about Masonic things, but he will not, and it’s not because of any offense he takes to my membership, either. It’s for fear of the loss of status that would result for him if his brothers found out.

Bingo!!
I have witnessed this myself.

 

[I'ddie4him]

There is some decent discussion in here, I would hate to close it down permanently for excessive rule violations.

The replies will be civil, factual, on topic and above all, RESPECTFUL.
[rule2.1]
[rule2.6]
[rule2.8]

Thread is reopened now.
Let's keep it within the rules shall we ???

 

[O.F.F.]

For future reference, the term "Black Mason" is sometimes confused with a racial issue and Prince Hall although really is referring, by those with eyes to see, to the "Black Hearted (or hateful) Mason". You might need to ease the conflict a bit by keeping that in mind.

R.P. where did you see me or Jason use the term "Black Mason?" But, as a former African American Prince Hall Mason, I find what you say here as offensive. When I was a Mason, or even now as a former Mason, being a "Black Man" or an "African American male" is synonymous.

Not really, when you consider that the ones which have had dialogue on the matter have gotten nowhere, because Prince Hall Masons discouraged it. It seems they have a wrong take on Masonry as well, viewing it as a place of authority and power, and so they reject recognition plans for fear of giving something up. The North Carolina case was well-publicized and is typical. My best friend from seminary is a Prince Hall Mason. I’d gladly talk with him about Masonic things, but he will not, and it’s not because of any offense he takes to my membership, either. It’s for fear of the loss of status that would result for him if his brothers found out.

First of all, it is naive to think that it's not about authority and power. For Freemasonry to truly be one fraternity instead of two in the U.S., there should be one Grand Lodge in each state, or at best a United Grand Lodge of the USA. In order for that to happen, there must be a process that emerges one Grand Master. As it stands now, neither Grand Master of Prince Hall or their "white" counterparts are going to easily be willing to relinquish their "Gavels of Authority."

As for you friend's reluctance in having Masonic discourse with you, it is not for fear of his status if his brothers found out. It's because, as Prince Hall Masons (PHA), we were taught that if you are not recognized as "regular" by the Grand Lodge of a Mason you meet, then we are not to acknowledge them as legitimate either. If you really believe PHA Masons should be acknowledged as legitimate, than you'd work deligently within your Grand Lodge system as a catalyst for change.

If I were still a Mason, that would be my first priority for ALL Grand Lodges in the U.S. However, since I don't believe Freemasonry is legitimate biblically, I could care less if this ever happens. But, one thing is certain, because of the political nuances of who ultimately controls the "Gavel of Authority" Freemasonry is cursed to be a segregated fraternity FOREVER!

 

[Rev Wayne]

As for you friend's reluctance in having Masonic discourse with you, it is not for fear of his status if his brothers found out. It's because, as Prince Hall Masons (PHA), we were taught that if you are not recognized as "regular" by the Grand Lodge of a Mason you meet, then we are not to acknowledge them as legitimate either.

And yet we remain close friends. Why do you suppose that is? If I in any way as a person considered him as a person not to "regular," don't you think it would show, and the friendship then cease as a result?

The fact is, no matter what the position of our lodges, we know each other's heart better than to think it of one another, ever. Never mind all the statements, he and I have already learned, as we helped each other through seminary, to "conciliate true friendship," being bound by a much stronger tie than could ever be expressed by any brotherhood other than the one we now enjoy, recognizing that "my heart is as your heart"; celebrating in each other's joys, agonizing over the present gap in our respective Masonic affiliations, and agonizing even more at the lack of progress within our denomination to bridge the gap in so many of our churches, so that all who do not enjoy the same kind of friendship may have bridges built and barriers demolished.

Thank God what we share transcends all those things.

If you really believe PHA Masons should be acknowledged as legitimate, than you'd work deligently within your Grand Lodge system as a catalyst for change.

We've hashed this one out before, our chief matters of difference are in methodology, which, put simply, is like the difference between penetration and permeation.

 

[JasonV]

O.F.F,

I didn't realize you were a Prince Hall Mason. That's pretty cool I think. Do you believe there is a significiant difference between PH Masonry and non-PH Masonry?