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amadeus72

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ZionKnight said:
Through our discourse with him, we have discovered a lot about the mason philosophy and, I think that we came to a clear colusion that a true christian that has been informed of the specifics can not hold their feet in both worlds.

Which "specifics" exactly?

The interesting thing about the whole argument to we who are Christian Masons is the subtle irony involved with the so-called "Christian ex-Masons". There aren't very many people who have left Masonry due to supposed religious conflicts, but rest assured that most who have now sport a website full of misunderstandings, intentional deceptions, and/or a combination of the two (and most will be more than willing to sell you a tape or video on the subject beginning at around 20 bucks).

One of the "ironies" mentioned above can be found in Mike Gentry's own "personal testimony" on his website. Apparently, Mr. Gentry was influenced and repeatedly recommended by Masonry to read his Bible, so he did, thinking that doing so would make him a better Mason (because Masons are charged to be familiar with the Great Light).

By following Masonry's teachings, he discovered the gospel. Which led him to reject Masonry's teachings.

Make sense? Don't worry, it didn't to me either.... :wave:
 
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O.F.F.

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amadeus72 said:
Which "specifics" exactly?

The interesting thing about the whole argument to we who are Christian Masonsis the subtle irony involved with the so-called "Christian ex-Masons". There aren't very many people who have left Masonry due to supposed religious conflicts, but rest assured that most who have now sport a website full of misunderstandings, intentional deceptions, and/or a combination of the two (and most will be more than willing to sell you a tape or video on the subject beginning at around 20 bucks).

One of the "ironies" mentioned above can be found in Mike Gentry's own "personal testimony" on his website. Apparently, Mr. Gentry was influenced and repeatedly recommended by Masonry to read his Bible, so he did, thinking that doing so would make him a better Mason (because Masons are charged to be familiar with the Great Light).

By following Masonry's teachings, he discovered the gospel. Which led him to reject Masonry's teachings.

Make sense? Don't worry, it didn't to me either.... :wave:
While this thread may ultimately be closed, because a Mason chooses to make personal attacks, rather than provide sufficient evidence to prove that Freemasonry is compatible with biblical Christianity, I will reply.

First of all the term "Christian Mason" is an oxymoron per earlier posts. As a result, just like there are many who claim to be "Christians" in the world at large, saying so doesn't necessarily make them Christians at all. Even Jesus Himself said:
Matthew 7:13-23

13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it . . . 15Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves . . . 21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
So, since Freemasonry is a system of the "world" and NOT of God, like the "world" many will come to it thinking they are Christians based on their background. But as soon as their faith is challenged by the truth of God's Word opposed against its heretical teachings, those so called "Christian Masons" can no more justify their Masonic involvement by His Word, anymore then they can explain what it really means to be a true Christian.

Such is the Mason who is quoted above, who would rather distract the real issue of the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry, with meaningless claims against information made available to the general public at a nominal cost that supports the biblical position against Freemasonry.

If such information is truly "misunderstandings, intentional deceptions, and/or a combination of the two" than why doesn't he provide the facts to support his argument rather than take the cowardice approach of personal attacks?

Finally, he proves that MOST Masons don't even follow the advise of their own ritual, because if MOST of them did "read the Bible" as I did, for God's truth and direction in their lives, than MOST would "come out and be ye separate" (2 Corinthians 6:16-18). In other words, he proves that he too hasn't read the Bible sufficiently. If so, let him provide biblical evidence that supports the religious teachings of Freemasonry!

Is he willing and able to accept this challenge? I don't think so, and if he does he will fail miserably.
 
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ZionKnight

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That's one of the specifics I alluded to, as I understand it, not being nor ever been a mason, is that Freemasonry is working to unite all religions and faith-systems, at least, under the banner of 'Tolorence'. "You have your thing, and I have mine. So let's just try to live together." For all those who have read my previous posts, that would be one of those Noble but not necessarily Right causes. As christians, we hold that the Word of God is infalible, and that Jesus (the Christ, hence, christians,) is the Word made flesh. Well, the Word tells us that God is a jealous God, that He will share the Glory that is due Him with no one. If we believe what we believe, then we cannnot accept any other religion as a valid approach to God. I know that sounds harsh, but we have to remember, the father of all those 'other ways' is a theif and a liar, and is here only to steal, kill, and destroy.
For this purpose was the Son of God made manifest, that He might destory the works of the Devil. If we are CHRISTians, then we are crucified with Christ, nevertheless, we live, yet not us, but Christ who liveth in us. It is our responsabilty to show to Love of God to those who are caught in the path leading to 'another way'. This isn't a game of proving who is right, (God is, that's that,) it is a war. I am sure that I will need to explain later. until then, :wave:
 
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amadeus72

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O.F.F. said:
While this thread may ultimately be closed, because a Mason chooses to make personal attacks, rather than provide sufficient evidence to prove that Freemasonry is compatible with biblical Christianity, I will reply.

So I point out a contradiction in your story, and you define this as a "personal attack"? After all, it isn't like you were having a conversation with somebody, and I popped in out of nowhere calling you a "heretic". But that does sound sort of familiar, eh?

First of all the term "Christian Mason" is an oxymoron per earlier posts. As a result, just like there are many who claim to be "Christians" in the world at large, saying so doesn't necessarily make them Christians at all.

Nor does some guy on the Internet saying that they're not Christians make it so, either. It works both ways, you see.

So, since Freemasonry is a system of the "world" and NOT of God, like the "world" many will come to it thinking they are Christians based on their background. But as soon as their faith is challenged by the truth of God's Word opposed against its heretical teachings, those so called "Christian Masons" can no more justify their Masonic involvement by His Word, anymore then they can explain what it really means to be a true Christian.

Then, by all means, tell us: what makes you more of a "true Christian" than, say, Dr. George W. Truett (founder of the Southern Baptist Convention), Dr. Kenneth Lyons (Methodist bishop and biblical scholar), or Rev. Geoffrey Fisher (late Archbishop of Canterbury), who were also Masons?


If such information is truly "misunderstandings, intentional deceptions, and/or a combination of the two" than why doesn't he provide the facts to support his argument rather than take the cowardice approach of personal attacks?

As noted, the personal attacks came from you, with your false claims of heresy. I simply pointed out the fact that you contradicted yourself.

Is he willing and able to accept this challenge? I don't think so, and if he does he will fail miserably.

I'm not interested in playing rhetorical games on an Internet chat forum that isn't going to change anyone's mind anyway. You'll have to find your amusement elsewhere.

Questions were asked about Freemasonry, and I took the time to answer. I will continue to do so if anyone requests. You're welcome to counter if you want, but please don't fly into a hissy and start screaming "personal attacks!" if I happen to point out something you say that's nonsensical.
 
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amadeus72

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ZionKnight said:
That's one of the specifics I alluded to, as I understand it, not being nor ever been a mason, is that Freemasonry is working to unite all religions and faith-systems, at least, under the banner of 'Tolorence'.

I guess my only response to this is that Freemasonry does not seek to unite religions or faith systems or political persuasions: it simply seeks to unite people.

"You have your thing, and I have mine. So let's just try to live together."

The simple fact is, we do all have to live together, unless we all want to declare jihads on each other. This really has nothing to do with Freemasonry, but is just an observation about the world. Freemasonry simply claims that each individual has the right to his/her own religious opinions, and no one has the right to persecute them for it. I view this as a sacred principle, and cannot acquiesce to arguments against it.
 
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O.F.F.

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amadeus72 said:
I guess my only response to this is that Freemasonry does not seek to unite religions or faith systems or political persuasions: it simply seeks to unite people.
Yet how does it attempt to unite people? By uniting all their gods into one under the name "G.A.O.T.U." (this is a form of syncretism) and then teaches that there is only one God, and this universal deity is referred to by various names of the different religions of the world.
Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41
Since you claim to be a Christian, you need to know that this is heresy from a biblical perspective.
amadeus72 said:
The simple fact is, we do all have to live together . . . Freemasonry simply claims that each individual has the right to his/her own religious opinions, and no one has the right to persecute them for it. I view this as a sacred principle, and cannot acquiesce to arguments against it.
No one here is persecuting anyone, but God will condemn unbelievers for their disbelief. If you believe that God's Word is truth, then you must know that your 'sacred principle' is not grounded in Scripture. In fact, it will lead non-Christians to Hell. All other religions reject Jesus' claim of being the Son of God. To reject Jesus for who He really is, is to reject the Father who sent Him.

John 3:35-37

35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yes, God Loves the world too, but no where in His Word will you find Him tolerant of other religions and their false gods. On the contrary, you will find the exact opposite (intolerance).
Psalm 96:5

5For all the gods of the nations are [lifeless] idols, but the Lord made the heavens.
In fact, according to God's Word the god of the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and all other nations are demons.

1 Corinthians 10:19-21 19

Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.
And, Jesus said of Himself:
John 14:6

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Again, God Loves the world, but he is not tolerant of false religions.

John 3:16-18

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
If you don't care about their eternal destiny fine, but if you do not want the verdict of God's wrath to remain on your non-Christian friends and Masonic brethren, you should stop telling them they have "the right to their own religious opinions" and belief in false gods, and start telling them about the love of the One True Living God that can be found only through His Son; Jesus Christ our Lord!
 
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ZionKnight

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To add to that, no one is saying that a muslim doesn't have the right to be a muslim, God himself gave us that right to choose. But, as o.f.f showed scripturaly, it is our responsibility to point out to that muslim that Islam isn't the way to heaven. Any other way then through Jesus as shown in the word, is the way that leads to destruction. This is the place where christians aren't going to get a pat on the back, this is where we start to feel that cross we accepted when we said we would follow Him. The world hated Him, (they framed, beat, and killed Him, that certianly sounds like hate to me,) it will hate us also, especialy when we stand for all the things He tells us to. We love the Buddhist, but we cannot love buddhism. We respect the homosexual, but we cannot respect homosexuality.
 
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amadeus72

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ZionKnight said:
To add to that, no one is saying that a muslim doesn't have the right to be a muslim, God himself gave us that right to choose. But, as o.f.f showed scripturaly, it is our responsibility to point out to that muslim that Islam isn't the way to heaven.

That's true, but really doesn't have anything to do with Freemasonry, any more than, say, Rotary International or Boy Scouts of America. Freemasonry is a secular fraternal organization, not an evangelical society.

When modern Freemasonry was first organized, religious persecution was a very real problem. Thankfully, it has largely subsided in the west, although it still occurs daily in many other parts of the world. Only recently in Afghanistan, Islamic clerics and civilians demanded the death of a man because he had converted to Christianity. Buddhist monks in Tibet continue to oppressed, arrested, and beaten by Chinese Communists. Jews are systematically targeted for violence in eastern Europe by neo-Fascist thugs.

Freemasonry doesn't say that all religions are "right". It simply stands as the guardian of freedom of conscience.

Mr. Gentry and I disagree on this matter. As I stated earlier, I consider freedom of religion a sacred principle. Apparently, he does not because such freedom is "not grounded in Scripture".

However, the freedom of the Muslim to worship in his mosque, and the freedom of the Jew to worship in his synagogue, is the same freedom I invoke every Sunday when I attend the Holy Eucharist in worship of the Father through communion with the Son. If the freedom of worship is taken away from the Muslim and Jew, there's nothing stopping them from coming after my freedom next.

Freemasonry recognizes this, and holds religious liberty as a sacred principle. Furthermore, Freemasonry refuses to deny men membership for no other reason than their religious opinions are minority ones. If Mr. Gentry does not agree with this, then he was right to leave the fraternity, as we have no need of those who withhold the hand of friendship from others for no other reason than honest disagreement.
 
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ZionKnight

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amadeus72 said:
That's true, but really doesn't have anything to do with Freemasonry, any more than, say, Rotary International or Boy Scouts of America. Freemasonry is a secular fraternal organization, not an evangelical society.

But christianity is, and that is part of what I am trying to say. It becomes a, what's the word? Paradigmatic conflict.

Freemasonry doesn't say that all religions are "right". It simply stands as the guardian of freedom of conscience.

And that is where it differs from the boy scouts and other organizations like that.

Mr. Gentry and I disagree on this matter. As I stated earlier, I consider freedom of religion a sacred principle. Apparently, he does not because such freedom is "not grounded in Scripture".

I realize that you are quoting Mr. Gentry, but let me clarify: it is not the freedom of religion, but the source of those religions that christians are fundamentaly opposed to. As you have read in the scriptures provided, we do believe that those religions are inventions of the enemy,( the devil) to distract and confuse man from the Truth. We are here to shine His light so that there may be no more confusion. While man has the right to choose whatever religion he can come up with, we have the duty to declare the ONLY ONE TRUE WAY, JESUS. Being a part of Freemasonry, you encourage that these other ways are feasible. What I am trying to say is that, as a christian, you know that the young woman practicing wiccan is going to hell if she doesn't change her mind, (if you don't, then your faith is in vain,) so you are compelled to reason with her and tell her of a better way. In so doing, you recognize that her way is false and must be rejected. As a freemason, you aren't supposed to do that.

Freemasonry recognizes this, and holds religious liberty as a sacred principle. Furthermore, Freemasonry refuses to deny men membership for no other reason than their religious opinions are minority ones. If Mr. Gentry does not agree with this, then he was right to leave the fraternity, as we have no need of those who withhold the hand of friendship from others for no other reason than honest disagreement.
 
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amadeus72

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ZionKnight said:
While man has the right to choose whatever religion he can come up with, we have the duty to declare the ONLY ONE TRUE WAY, JESUS. Being a part of Freemasonry, you encourage that these other ways are feasible.

How exactly is that? I mean, in what way does being a Mason, Elk, etc., "encourage that these other ways are feasible"?

What I am trying to say is that, as a christian, you know that the young woman practicing wiccan is going to hell if she doesn't change her mind, (if you don't, then your faith is in vain,) so you are compelled to reason with her and tell her of a better way. In so doing, you recognize that her way is false and must be rejected. As a freemason, you aren't supposed to do that.

I'm curious as to where you are getting your information. Who told you that "as a freemason, you aren't supposed to do that"? Obviously, this isn't the case, and I think Mr. Gentry's website may have bamboozled you. A Christian Mason can witness to a non-Christian in the exact same manner that any Christian can.

I recognize your hypothetical Wiccan's right to practice her religion, not only as a Mason but as an American; however, just because I recognize her right to disagree with me does not mean I cannot attempt to share the gospel with her.
 
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Rev Wayne

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I guess my only response to this is that Freemasonry does not seek to unite religions or faith systems or political persuasions: it simply seeks to unite people.

Yet how does it attempt to unite people? By uniting all their gods into one under the name "G.A.O.T.U." (this is a form of syncretism) and then teaches that there is only one God, and this universal deity is referred to by various names of the different religions of the world.


Syncretism? Hardly:

Syncretism:

1. the fusion of originally different inflected forms (resulting in a reduction in the use of inflections)

2. the union (or attempted fusion) of different systems of thought or belief (especially in religion or philosophy); "a syncretism of material and immaterial theories" (wordreference.com)

By any true definition of syncretism, the key meaning intended is a “union” or a “fusion”—when speaking of syncretism in relation to religions, then, it means a “union” or “fusion” of ideas.

That is the total opposite of what Masonry does in the example just offered. Masonry recognizes that there are similarities among monotheistic religions, takes specific notice that the points of similarity are denominated differently in each of them, and offers a general term to be used rather than use terms which are themselves sectarian.

But in a broader sense, the real issue with such accusations is a matter of language and our use of it to categorize things into general and specific categories. If I say “feline” or “cat,” I speak in general terms; if I say “calico” or “Siamese,” I speak in specific terms. If I say “car” or “automobile,” I speak in general terms; if I say “Chevy” or “Ford,” I speak in specific terms. It’s a common feature of language, and we all understand what is meant, because the categorization of language has a direct structural correlation to our thinking patterns. If someone addresses a group of people concerning things we all generally experience with our cars, they will speak of “cars,” not Cadillacs. Likewise, if someone addresses gathering of Masons concerning our Creator, they will not speak of Allah or Jehovah. To do so would be inaccurate if those of different faifhs were present. The more general term that has been provided would be the natural choice.

Syncretism misses the mark as a description, because from any syncretistic effort a new form appears. Masonry produces no new religion from the interaction of its members from different faiths, referring to them still as Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. A more apt description, given Masonry’s intended use of such terms, would be “neutral”:

<H2 style="MARGIN: auto 0in">neutral
1: not engaged on either side; specif : not aligned with a political or ideological grouping
2: of or relating to a neutral state or power
3a: neither one thing nor the other : (Webster’s)
</H2>Masonry makes a very direct statement concerning the purpose of bringing together members of such ideologically disparate groups:

By the exercise of brotherly love, we are taught to regard the whole human species as one family; the high and low, rich and poor; who, as created by one Almighty Parent, and inhabitants of the same planet, are to aid, support, and protect each other. On this principle, Masonry unites men of every country, sect and opinion, and conciliates true friendship among those who might, otherwise, have remained at a perpetual distance.


Such is the Mason who is quoted above, who would rather distract the real issue of the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry, with meaningless claims against information made available to the general public at a nominal cost that supports the biblical position against Freemasonry.

If such information is truly "misunderstandings, intentional deceptions, and/or a combination of the two" than why doesn't he provide the facts to support his argument rather than take the cowardice approach of personal attacks?

John Ankerberg is cited in the testimony on the O.F.F. site. John Ankerberg is one of the most-quoted sources of misinformation about Freemasonry, and his deliberately distorted, misquoted, and misrepresented “quotes” of Masons have made him one of the premier fiction writers of our time.

Quite an extensive exposee was posted at christianforums some time ago. It doesn’t cover all, but it details some of the more deliberately and flagrantly misrepresented accusations.



http://www.christianforums.com/t1601295-the-antimasonic-propaganda-machine.html



 
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ZionKnight

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Rev Wayne said:
Syncretism? Hardly:



By any true definition of syncretism, the key meaning intended is a &#8220;union&#8221; or a &#8220;fusion&#8221;&#8212;when speaking of syncretism in relation to religions, then, it means a &#8220;union&#8221; or &#8220;fusion&#8221; of ideas.

That is the total opposite of what Masonry does in the example just offered. Masonry recognizes that there are similarities among monotheistic religions, takes specific notice that the points of similarity are denominated differently in each of them, and offers a general term to be used rather than use terms which are themselves sectarian.

But in a broader sense, the real issue with such accusations is a matter of language and our use of it to categorize things into general and specific categories. If I say &#8220;feline&#8221; or &#8220;cat,&#8221; I speak in general terms; if I say &#8220;calico&#8221; or &#8220;Siamese,&#8221; I speak in specific terms. If I say &#8220;car&#8221; or &#8220;automobile,&#8221; I speak in general terms; if I say &#8220;Chevy&#8221; or &#8220;Ford,&#8221; I speak in specific terms. It&#8217;s a common feature of language, and we all understand what is meant, because the categorization of language has a direct structural correlation to our thinking patterns. If someone addresses a group of people concerning things we all generally experience with our cars, they will speak of &#8220;cars,&#8221; not Cadillacs. Likewise, if someone addresses gathering of Masons concerning our Creator, they will not speak of Allah or Jehovah. To do so would be inaccurate if those of different faifhs were present. The more general term that has been provided would be the natural choice.

Syncretism misses the mark as a description, because from any syncretistic effort a new form appears. Masonry produces no new religion from the interaction of its members from different faiths, referring to them still as Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. A more apt description, given Masonry&#8217;s intended use of such terms, would be &#8220;neutral&#8221;:

</H2>Masonry makes a very direct statement concerning the purpose of bringing together members of such ideologically disparate groups:
















Ok, it just got really complicated in here. :confused: Rev, I have read your post three times now, and I am still trying to digest half of it. It is clear that you have a powerfull command of the english language, please be patient with me as I try to catch up.
First, I think that it would help me if someone would explain the G.A.O.T.U. It may come as a suprise, but I didn't accually read more than the first page of O.F.F.'s link, I am a minimum wage father of three children three and under, I try to use what free time I get the best I can.

In response to Amadeus, I keep making my conclusions based on your posts, perhaps I am not yet understanding, but that is what this thread is for. I hope you haven't become angry with my posts so far, I am trying to be civil and as diplomatic as I know how. It is through the dialogue of opposing points of view (such as yourself, and o.f.f.) that a more informed judgement can be made.

In response to Rev, I'll try to split a split hair, and point out that the defintion does use the word or between union and fusion, I assume that means that it does not necessarily have to be a fusion. Both you and Amadeus have made it clear that the Freemasons does unite people, and (needfully so,) addresses the subjects of religion and ideology. I can say that all monotheistic religions believe in one god, and point out many simmularities among them. Then, I can either point out that inevitably there is still only one answer to the question "who is He?", or I can leave you to conclude that all religions are pointing to the same Parent. It sounds like there isn't a difference, but there is.
 
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Rev Wayne

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In response to Rev, I'll try to split a split hair, and point out that the defintion does use the word or between union and fusion, I assume that means that it does not necessarily have to be a fusion. Both you and Amadeus have made it clear that the Freemasons does unite people, and (needfully so,) addresses the subjects of religion and ideology. I can say that all monotheistic religions believe in one god, and point out many simmularities among them. Then, I can either point out that inevitably there is still only one answer to the question "who is He?", or I can leave you to conclude that all religions are pointing to the same Parent. It sounds like there isn't a difference, but there is.
No need to split hairs, I can see by this comment that you are well on the way in regard to understanding Masonry. Albert Mackey, in refusing a definition of Masonry as "a" religion, still did not reject the idea that it is "an eminently religious institution," and added in a well-known and often-quoted analogy, that Masonry is "the porch of religion." Even so, it focuses only on the common elements upon which all religions agree. These are mostly summed up in what some Masons have described as the "royal law of God," which includes, of course, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," "love God and neighbor," "help the helpless," "do good unto all," and similar maxims that resemble, more than anything else, the sermon on the mount.

And you have hit the nail square on the head with your summary notation that "Who is He?" is the ultimate question. But that is not a question Masonry tries to answer for any man. Masonry is content to bring the man to the porch, and then allow him to enter the house by the door of his choice. In that regard, I find Masonry to be very much like an analogy of a house offered by C.S. Lewis in his preface to Mere Christianity. He described belief in God as a house, with a great hall in which many people are gathered. Some people are still in the hall, some have chosen a door off the hallway through which they enter. And there are rules that apply to the whole house, that one cannot be critical of others in their choice of which doors to enter.

Masonry provides for me a great boost and an encouragement to my faith, but it is not my faith, nor does it try to be. It chooses no man's path for him, and yet it still points out the fact that there is a path, that there is a Creator who designed that path, and that we have an ultimate duty to seek the Creator, and walk the path with Him as our guide. I have no doubt that even if I were ever to stray from the path of Christian faith--which I do not see happening--and yet remained in the lodge, I would not get very far away from the "house," because Masonry would continue serving that function of bringing me back to the porch.

EXPLANATION OF G.A.O.T.U.

This is an extraordinarily simple phrase which has been extraordinarily and unnecessarily complicated by accusers of Masonry. The best way I've found to try to understand it is simply to think of generic terms for deity. In English, that's quite simple, the term "God" is itself a generic, although in the Christian faith it sometimes tend to function more like a proper name. But even though we capitalize it to speak of "God," we also lower-case it to speak of other "gods." In that lower-case usage we may find it functioning in much the same way as Freemasonry intends by its phrase "G.A.O.T.U." The phrase was Christian long before it was Masonic. It was first found in Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin. It was first adopted by Masons in medieval times through their associations with the trade guilds. Each guild put on its own "morality play," with its members serving as the actors in the play. The purpose of the plays was to point to one or more moral truths, founded on biblical principle. The common practice was for each guild to illustrate these themes by the use of terms familiar to them from their particular trade. For the Masons, those terms were drawn from the builder's art, and it was no coincidence that references to God our Creator took the form of "Architect of the Universe."

Nor was it a coincidence that they would be familiar with John Calvin. The Catholic church frowned on involvement in the morality plays, and issued an edict forbidding their priests to participate in any way. They also took a strong anti-Masonry stance. With that rejection, and with Masonry's dependence upon the Bible, it is easy to see why any association they have had with Christianity would likely be Protestantism.

I can either point out that inevitably there is still only one answer to the question "who is He?", or I can leave you to conclude that all religions are pointing to the same Parent. It sounds like there isn't a difference, but there is.
I have only one answer to that question myself, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. I made that choice long ago, and it has not changed. What Masonry affirms is that there is one God who created all things, and that He is sovereign. From a Christian viewpoint, I cannot deny either of those tenets, so there is no conflict with what I believe.

I am a minimum wage father of three children three and under, I try to use what free time I get the best I can.
God bless you, sir, and as one who has "been there, done that," I will take that as a prayer request. Do what you can to be there for your wife, she needs you more critically than you can imagine for the next few years until they get a bit more manageable. I failed at that point and it nearly cost me the unimaginable.
 
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O.F.F.

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Rev. Wayne said:
The best way I've found to try to understand it is simply to think of generic terms for deity . . . But even though we capitalize it to speak of "God," we also lower-case it to speak of other "gods." In that lower-case usage we may find it functioning in much the same way as Freemasonry intends by its phrase "G.A.O.T.U."
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How could a Christian pastor think of the One True Living God in "generic" terms is beyond me. The only proper way to speak of God, with a capital "G" is to be specific. And, the only way to be accurate in referring to the only real God of the universe is to refer to the triune God of the Bible (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). All other forms, or concepts, of deity are inaccurate if used with a capital "G" and require a lower-case "g" to accurately reflect what they are; that is as the "Rev" said, "other gods." All of which are false gods, to include the god of Freemasonry (G.A.O.T.U.).

The letter G to which your attention was directed on your passage hither, has a still greater and more significant meaning. It is the initial and sacred name of God, before whom all Masons, from the youngest Entered Apprentice who stands in the Northeast corner of the Lodge, to the Worshipful master who resides in the East, should most humbly, reverently, and devoutly bow.

- Pages 18 & 19, Fellow Craft Degree, State of Nevada Ritual, Circa 1986
Notice it says a "God" (singular) whom all Masons, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or from other pagan religions, should bow. As you can see the Grand Lodge of Nevada proves that the Masonic god "G.A.O.T.U." is a symbol, and not really "God" at all. This is also verified by the Grand Lodge Indiana:

One fundamental of Freemasonry is its non-sectarian character. Any man may offer his devotions to the Deity he reveres, under the Masonic title, no matter what name he may use in his religious worship. Thus, Great Architect of the Universe (or any of its variations) is a symbol of Deity as named and worshiped in all religions.

Indiana Mentor&#8217;s Manual, p. 49
These are two examples coming from the highest authority in the Masonic Order -- Grand Lodges. And, this is buttressed by prominent Masonic authors:

You have learned that Freemasonry calls God, 'The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.). This is the Freemason's special name for God, because he is universal. He belongs to all men regardless of their religious persuasion. All wise men acknowledge His authority. In his private devotions a Mason will pray to Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, Jesus or the Deity of his choice. In a Masonic Lodge, however, the Mason will find the name of his Deity within the G.A.O.T.U.

- Page 6, The Craft and Its Symbols by Allen E. Roberts
Genuine Christians who know God's Word know that worship of a symbol is a form of idolatry. They also know that the gods of the Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and all other false religions are NOT one in the same as the God of the Bible. Freemasons offer prayer to a god who they call the Great Architect of the Universe (G.A.O.T.U.) Freemasonry defines the nature of the G.A.O.T.U. within the Masonic doctrine, "Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of man."

As the "Rev" implies, the Masonic god "G.A.O.T.U." is not only Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is Allah, the Mormon Elohim, Ahura Mazdah, Baal, Molech and all other false gods which have ever been named by mankind. When Freemasons join together in prayer to the G.A.O.T.U, are they worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? No, they are still worshiping demons (Psalm 86:5, 1 Corinthians 10:19-21 19), and so does any Christian who participate in prayer in the Masonic Lodge. Involvement in Freemasonry ensnares men in idolatry, which violates the First and and Greatest commandment:
Mark 12:29-30

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

Exodus 20:3

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
 
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Rev Wayne

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if i may, from your lengthy posts, i can only see one recurring theme, that masonic members practice (at the least) religious tolerance.
Ay, there's the rub. Check back through history and find all the religiously tolerant groups, and you will find none of them fare too well with other religious folk. Generally speaking, of course.

i'm just curious as to why O.F.F. being an ex-mason never saw it this way.
He'll have to answer for that one himself.
 
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Rev Wayne said:
Ay, there's the rub. Check back through history and find all the religiously tolerant groups, and you will find none of them fare too well with other religious folk. Generally speaking, of course.

i'm not sure i understand you. does your post implied that most religiously tolerant groups are no better than other religious folks? ( when let's say it comes to co-existence within one community)

or you wanted to say that historically, masonic groups are very religiously tolerant than most religious folks?

He'll have to answer for that one himself.

he is most welcome of course


.
 
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i'm not sure i understand you. does your post implied that most religiously tolerant groups are no better than other religious folks? ( when let's say it comes to co-existence within one community)

or you wanted to say that historically, masonic groups are very religiously tolerant than most religious folks?
Gee, where did this get complicated? :)

Tolerance has not really been a primary religious tenet, historically speaking. Maybe that says it better than before. As for Masons being more tolerant--maybe, but not a call I'm willing to make, it sounds like too much of a generalization.
 
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O.F.F.

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the "Rev" said:
You treat a descriptive phrase about God as though it were the name of God.
NO I do not! You have, although you try to dance between your double-talk, and so has the Grand Lodges of which I gave two examples.

the "Rev" said:
And anyone with half a thimble full of genuine common sense can read anything said about GAOTU and recognize that nobody is claiming to worship a symbol.
As was shown, the Grand Lodge of Indiana is very explicit about it. And, be it a symbol or an idol, the bottom-line is YOU and all other Masons worship a false god called G.A.O.T.U.

the "Rev" said:
Using such a phrase [G.A.O.T.U.] to describe the Creator is no different than we do in Christianity with phrases like &#8220;the only begotten Son of the Father.&#8221; (emphasis added)
How ignorant or foolish do you think the members of this forum are? First you say it is a "generic" phrase for "God." Now you say it is no different than a more specific phrase like &#8220;the only begotten Son of the Father.&#8221; So are you now trying to say that &#8220;the only begotten Son of the Father&#8221; is a generic term for "God?" For a seminary trained "Christian" pastor, you are making no sense here. But , since this seems to be your position, I have a few of questions for you then:

Is the god of the Hindu Mason or the Muslim or the Buddhist Mason the Sovereign Creator of the Universe? After all, you said they "generically" refer to "God" as such. And, is either the god of the Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist &#8220;the only begotten Son of the Father?&#8221;
the "Rev" said:
The very fact that you quote from Masonic statements that specify various matters about "the Hindu, the Muslim, the Jew," etc. is sufficient proof that the lodge recognizes the distinctions.
Only in your feeble Masonic mind for Grand Lodges, who have far more Masonic authority than you'll ever have, say they make NO such distinction:

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is NOT concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality. (emphasis added)

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41
In case you are tempted to say it again, let me say it for you:
the "Rev" said:
And since when does a statement about Masonry from Nevada, or from any other one Grand Lodge for that matter, "prove" anything for all of Masonry?
Since when does a post or statement about Freemasonry from a Masonic apron-wearing, United Methodist pastor speak for all of Masonry?

My final question, for which folks can click on to find the answer:

Why would a Pastor Condone, or Defend Freemasonry?
 
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Rev Wayne said:
Gee, where did this get complicated? :)

tolerance has not really been a primary religious tenet, historically speaking. Maybe that says it better than before. As for Masons being more tolerant--maybe, but not a call I'm willing to make, it sounds like too much of a generalization.

within the context that christian masons fraternize with people with different beliefs, i think they are tolerant.

what i'm saying is again based on your posts, a christian mason to the very least does not believed in exclusivism, as opposed to some christians who are very exclusivist.

.
 
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