Masons

[amadeus72]

Another interesting society with a secret element on conspiritorial par w/the Masons would be the Jesuits.
I wonder if there's any published info on how those two interacted. Wasn't Napolean involved with both?

As a young man, Napoleon became a Mason, but does not appear to have ever been an active member. His wife, the Empress Josephine, was Grand Mistress of the Rite of Adoption, a French organization roughly equivalent to the Order of the Eastern Star in the US.

As for the Jesuits, that's a long story. By their very nature, being the "Counter-Reformation vanguards", they have always been anti-Masonic, sometimes violently so. The Jesuits are credited with inventing the first conspiracy theories about the Illuminati, in an effort to demonize and scapegoat Weishaupt's organization, robbing them of thousands of potential supporters.

The Jesuits also established fake Masonic bodies in France, such as the Council of Eastern Emperors, whose apparent goals were to infiltrate the Chapter of Rose Croix at Clermont. This latter organization was eventually absorbed into the French Rite of Perfection, which in turn eventually became what is now known as the Scottish Rite.

 

[gts]

The Jesuits are credited with inventing the first conspiracy theories about the Illuminati, in an effort to demonize and scapegoat Weishaupt's organization, robbing them of thousands of potential supporters.

I thought John Robison was responsible for demonizing Weishaupt's organization with his book Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't the Bavarian Government go after the Illuminati when one of their messengers was struck by lighting and incriminating documants were found on him?

 

[amadeus72]

I thought John Robison was responsible for demonizing Weishaupt's organization with his book Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe.

Robison echoed the sentiments of the Bavarian government. When he wrote his book, the Illuminati had already been vilified, infiltrated, and disbanded.

Also, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't the Bavarian Government go after the Illuminati when one of their messengers was struck by lighting and incriminating documants were found on him?

No, although that's a popular myth of the conspiracy theorists. Barruel made this claim, but the gentleman who was struck by lightning, a man named Johann Lanz, was not a member of the Illuminati, nor did he possess Illuminati documents. He was simply a friend of Weishaupt's.

Barruel seems to have confused with Lanz with Franz Lang, who was a member of the Illuminati, and was the first Illuminate to lose documents to the authorities. However, Lang was not struck by lightning: the Bavarian police raided his home and seized them.

 

[gts]

Robison echoed the sentiments of the Bavarian government. When he wrote his book, the Illuminati had already been vilified, infiltrated, and disbanded.




No, although that's a popular myth of the conspiracy theorists. Barruel made this claim, but the gentleman who was struck by lightning, a man named Johann Lanz, was not a member of the Illuminati, nor did he possess Illuminati documents. He was simply a friend of Weishaupt's.

Barruel seems to have confused with Lanz with Franz Lang, who was a member of the Illuminati, and was the first Illuminate to lose documents to the authorities. However, Lang was not struck by lightning: the Bavarian police raided his home and seized them.

Ok....that makes sense...do you have any references you can point me to.

 

[ZionKnight]

Before I close that final curtain on my wierd 'morality play', I want to remain true to the forum that we are in and keep some kind of history in it. I heard that the masons and the mormons share a lot of simularities, (hand shakes, garments, temple decorim, and such,) I wonder if that is true and, if so, what of it? If not, is there any connection to the masons and mormons? (like Joseph Smith having been one,) I wouldn't think so, and I can't think of any seriously dangerous conspiracy theories to go with it, I was just curious.

In our grand finale, to center stage walks a Jester, (isn't it always a jester?) who, after a solemn pause, begins to speak:

Jester:

I stand here a fool
so far as foolishnes goes,
to bauble out rhymes
and urefined prose.
But, wrapped in this foolishness
placed in my hand,
is a power not known
to mere mortal man.
And, foolish is the man
who stands and sings,
the tale of two Lions
and spiritual Kings.
Of the ravishing lion who decided to bite
the Almighty Hand from which all things feed,
was rendered toothless in one powerful smite
and now, how the pitiful lion does bleed.
With pride and bitterness
and things full of shame,
with an unsatiable hunger
for power and fame.
And,of the Lion of Judah
the King of all kings,
Who is, was, and will be
the First and Last of all things.
Son of the Almighty
is one of His claims,
Restorer of the old paths
is one of His names.
In the eyes of the All-Seeing
He never knew shame,
blameless in all things
yet for us took the blame.
Lion and Lamb,
they are one in the same,
a powerful Lion!
with Glory for a mane!
But, the tale that I tell
is of two other men,
niether flesh, nor spirit
but, formed from a pen.
Two arguing brothers
whose points seem the same,
but, the difference to be noted
is revealed in thier names.
The oldest is Intraclees,
though both very old,
he was first born
or, so I am told.
Inwardly he judges
the things he has learned,
for spiritual things
must be spiritualy discerned.
But, the spirit becomes clouded
when it is fleshed,
that's where Spectaclees, the younger
is at his very best.
For, outwardly he seeks
the things that he finds,
and judges them with
his natural mind.
They argued from birth,
and, argue they still,
of all things leading
to Calvary's hill.
And, with that, my dear friends
I bid thee adieu,
and leave you with the discourse
as discussed by these two.​

Spec: Crazy! You're all crazy! This boy is a lunatic, and you are all lunatics for reading this far. (grumbles into his long white beard,) Story book girls and rooms with mirrors, (scoffs) and just how long do you think that any of those people would last without food or water? Can you tell me that, genius? (shakes fist at the direction of the leaving jester.)
Intra: Spec, it's just a riddle, an imaginary puzzle to help solve intangible problems.
Spec: All the same.. and if I were in there, and (glares at his brother while he speaks,) I didn't starve to death, I suppose I would test the mirrors. If I could push one over, I would use it to break the others...
Intra: There are some people who do that...
Spec: Would you let me finish?
Intra: Sorry.
Spec: If... (waits to see if he would be interupted again,) if the mirrors were too sturdy, then I would just climb on top of one to see from a different angle.
Intra: That is an interesting solution, but, what if the mirror was too sharp to stand on without being fatally cut?
Spec: Did he say that the mirrors were too sharp to stand on?
Intra: Well no, but he did say that there would probobly be plenty of ways that he wouldn't think of, and that he was trying to make a point.
Spec: All I want to know is why, out of a number of highly educated men and women reading this thread, only one man ventured to give a solution?
Intra: I think Mr. Kepler was mostly just calling the boy out on his potshot at historians. And, I think that most of these men are trying to stay on the point of the thread and not go off on wild tangients and listen to imaginary brothers argue.
Spec: Well I'm with them. I mean, what am I going to do once I find this Alice? By then I am most likely going to be so hungry, that I might result to canibalism.
Intra: Spectaclees, are you paying atention? We are Imaginary we don't eat.
Spec: How do you know? By that logic, Alice is imaginary too, shouldn't imaginary things eat like said things? (smiles triuphantly,) For that matter, I could eat the mirrors.
Intra: (sighs and smooths back his hair in exasperation,) Ok, maybe we should get to the point of our existence.
Spec: Whoa, now that's heavy.
Intra: Let's review, what have you got, so far, from the discourse?
Spec: Ok, well first, the boy declared that, in finding the truth about the matter, he could not trust all the conflicting 'historical facts'. I think he was trying to say that there had to be a better way to weed through things that he was, by far, no expert on. I suppose I can understand that. I have heard plenty of atheists screaming thier mantra to the christians: If it can't be proven with the scientific method, then I won't believe it. But, through that method, nothing historical could be proven, unless John the apostle remembered to bring his camcorder with him to record the crucifiction and handed it to an angel to get some footage on the resurection of Jesus.
Intra: Excactly, that is why he introduced the riddle. To give a different way of finding the truth then the 'he said, she said' arguments. The original point of the thread was to find out who the masons were and if they were christian, or rather, if christians could, in good consience, be a mason as well. The riddle helps us to look at what we have, (the posts given by the masons themselves,) and use it to discern whether or not the masonic core beliefs can coincide in the heart of the christian believer.
Spec: Ah, I think I see, so we must introduce the christian into this riddle and see if there is a difference in his solution then the mason's.
Intra: That's it! I think that, for once, we might be agreed on something.
Spec: It's the visual aid that was given, I can only understand what I can see, even if I must 'see' it with my minds eye.
Intra: It seems that God designed in us the ability to imagine, perhaps it is for these very moments. What we cannot understand with the consious mind, we try to fathom with the subconsious. (Job 33:15, 16)
Spec: (throws up hands) Oh, great! There he goes, just a few minutes in to the conversation, and he starts quoting scripture! I suppose next we're gonna sing kumbiyah, and amazing Grace, and then pass around the offering plate.
Intra: Very funny, shall we finish this?
Spec: Very well, the christian is transported to the room of mirrors. Now, what?
Intra: The christian who is a true follower of Christ, and not just one because he says so, begins his speech:

The christian: What if, that light mentioned before, was more than just a light? What if, the Light was alive? What if, one day, some time ago, He came down for all to see, and said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, nevermind that Alice, he is just a self-serving punk, who wants everyone to look at him, and spend all thier time searching for him, even though he has nothing to give them for it, but misery. The only reason I haven't taken away his existence, is to show everyone else why he is wrong for what he did."

Spec: (pauses for a long moment, and then shrugs his shoulders,) Now I'm confused again.
We leave the two still arguing.

I didn't mean to trick anyone.....ok, yes I did. But, I think that I have illustrated (perhaps overillustrated,) my points: that the dagerous difference between the christian, and the mason, is that the mason wants to accept all religions (or, at least, the best stuff from each,) and, I suspect, that they do not recognize the existence of the Devil. At best, I think that they recognize Satan, (the adversary,) as the nature of the 'fallen man' who opposes the 'christ' or risen, annointed, illuminated, enlightened man.
And, that, if we spend all our time 'chasing wild geese' we may forget the meat that is at the table. So what, if the masons are evil aliens bent on the destruction of the world as we know it? Or, closer to home, so what, if the​

Devil is using the masons to enact his own scheems, even if they don't know it? God already knows who the masons are, and He doesn't seem worried. Do not forget, that there is nothing done in secret that will not be found out. Everything comes out in the open at some point. When that becomes necesary, I believe that God will turn the masons inside out. And, then, the truth will be evident for all to see. Until then, I will not forget that Greater is He that is in me, then he that is in the world. whew, I'm done.

 

[amadeus72]

Ok....that makes sense...do you have any references you can point me to.

There's a few good articles on the subject at the website for the Grand Lodge of British Columbia. As a new member here I'm not allowed to post links yet, but a Google search for the above will give you the address.

After you get to the homepage, click on "Sitemap", and then "Illuminati" under the category "Anti-Masonry". That page gives a brief history, but more details can be found if you click on "Bavarian Illuminati" on that page.

 

[amadeus72]

Before I close that final curtain on my wierd 'morality play', I want to remain true to the forum that we are in and keep some kind of history in it. I heard that the masons and the mormons share a lot of simularities, (hand shakes, garments, temple decorim, and such,) I wonder if that is true and, if so, what of it? If not, is there any connection to the masons and mormons? (like Joseph Smith having been one,) I wouldn't think so, and I can't think of any seriously dangerous conspiracy theories to go with it, I was just curious.

The unbiased (i.e., non-Mormon) observer who compares 19th century Masonic ritual with the original Mormon Temple Endowment ceremony will undoubtedly reach the conclusion that the latter is a complete rip-off of the former.

Several years ago, I gave a speech to my Lodge on the subject. Smith became a Mason in Nauvoo, Ill., along with several hundred other Mormon "pioneers" on their way westward. The Master of the Lodge was a recent convert to Mormonism, as were several other Lodge officers, and they rushed them through, conferring all three degrees in one day, without having elected them to membership in the constitutional manner.

The local non-Mormon Masons complained to the Grand Lodge of Illinois, which led to the Grand Master expelling all of the Mormons en masse a few weeks later, and which was basically the end of Smith's Masonic career (as well as Brigham Young's, who was also initiated, passed, and raised in Masonry at that time). The official reason for the mass expulsion of Mormons was that they practiced polygamy, which was declared immoral and unmasonic by the Grand Master. The Grand Lodge unanimously approved the Grand Master's decision at its next session, which gave the ruling the force of Masonic law.

Yet, Smith was apparently very impressed with Masonic ritual, if not with the actual fraternity, and plagiarized it in the Mormon Endowment. He once wrote that "just as Christianity is the apostate religion, so is Freemasonry the apostate Endowment". In other words, he taught that he was "restoring" the "true temple ceremony" from "corrupted Freemasonry" just as he restored the "true religion" from "corrupted Christianity".

It has been said that Smith was killed while giving a Masonic distress signal, but this of course is impossible to verify. If it is true, apparently his former fraternity brothers didn't care, as there were Masons in the mob who were attempting to drive them out. I of course do not condone Smith's murder, but it is easy to understand why the local population began moving against him. He had himself crowned king of America, ordered that a newspaper printing anti-Mormon articles be burnt down, ordered the deaths of several Mormons who had converted to Christianity, and was strong-arming local Christians to convert to Mormonism.

I didn't mean to trick anyone.....ok, yes I did. But, I think that I have illustrated (perhaps overillustrated,) my points: that the dagerous difference between the christian, and the mason, is that the mason wants to accept all religions (or, at least, the best stuff from each,) and, I suspect, that they do not recognize the existence of the Devil.

Masons aren't required to accept anything. A Christian Mason accepts Christianity and a Jewish Mason accepts Judaism. A Deist Mason like Voltaire accepts Deism, and a Unitarian Mason like Mackey accepts Unitarianism. The question of the existence of the devil has nothing to do with one's membership in a fraternity.


​

 

[bfluid]

It is a cult, they are not christians because they base there faith upon what they do. not on the grace that God gives us if we submit to Him and work really hard to serve Him.

 

[gts]

YO Z-Knight,
Sorry, I blew that edit. Check next post. Please forgive.

 

[gts]

That was mad crazy rhyme you spit
Where’d you come up with it?
I could feel its beat, it got me
So I clipped and paste and made a copy
Throw’n it now in my archive
That good talent you should not hide
Keep spitting out that word
Of the good news that you’ve heard
Be not disturbed
Or perturbed
But rather,
Be prepared for battle
When He comes it’ll matter
Through the clouds, horse and saddle
Shown with glory
10,000 saints
That’s the story,
Z-knight, fight the fight
Do what’s right
Glorify Him day and night
As our battles provide insight
One other thing, while my mind is race’n
Joseph Smith Jr. was a mason​

 

[ZionKnight]

That was mad crazy rhyme you spit

Where’d you come up with it?
I could feel its beat, it got me
So I clipped and paste and made a copy
Throw’n it now in my archive
That good talent you should not hide
Keep spitting out that word
Of the good news that you’ve heard
Be not disturbed
Or perturbed
But rather,
Be prepared for battle
When He comes it’ll matter
Through the clouds, horse and saddle
Shown with glory
10,000 saints
That’s the story,
Z-knight, fight the fight
Do what’s right
Glorify Him day and night
As our battles provide insight
One other thing, while my mind is race’n

Joseph Smith Jr. was a mason​

thanks, it was from Him and to Him, let me never be too careful to give Him the glory. (I think most writers are insecure by nature, we wouldn't know how to handle a good pat on the back anyway.) But, I didn't know that about J. S. Jr., I hope our resident masonic ambasador, (who, by the way, has presented himself in a very admirable manner. He has taken every accusation and implication about the masons and met them head on and never replied with a hateful or angry post, we, as ambassadors for Christ, should all hope to do so well.) will verify J.J.'s membership, if he can. And, I guess that I will voice the question that arises out of that statement: Why would the man's own son join a group that dissavowed him and was even part of the mob that killed him?

Even if it wasn't true, there are simmular cases all over the world of fathers killing thier families, mothers smothering thier babies, and children shooting thier parents. This world system and it's god have failed. New Zion is comming, it is here already (the kingdom of God, that we pray to come and His will be done, even as it is in heaven.) The King of Zion is comming, riding on a white horse. Gts, may you and I and all other Knights of Zion ride swiftly to meet Him where the clouds break. Whoo, amen! (excuse me while I get a little pentecostal.) Z-Knight, I think I'll keep that, thanks!

 

[amadeus72]

But, I didn't know that about J. S. Jr., I hope our resident masonic ambasador, (who, by the way, has presented himself in a very admirable manner. He has taken every accusation and implication about the masons and met them head on and never replied with a hateful or angry post, we, as ambassadors for Christ, should all hope to do so well.) will verify J.J.'s membership, if he can.

Please refer to my last post, on page 9, where I gave a brief history of Smith's Masonic involvement. I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.

Also, please note that Joseph Smith, Jr. was the Mormon prophet. Joseph Smith, Sr., his father, eventually converted.

 

[O.F.F.]

You can also learn more about Freemasonry by Ex-Masons for Jesus at the official website of the Order of Former Freemasons

 

[ZionKnight]

Please refer to my last post, on page 9, where I gave a brief history of Smith's Masonic involvement. I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.

Also, please note that Joseph Smith, Jr. was the Mormon prophet. Joseph Smith, Sr., his father, eventually converted.

Ahh! That clears it up. We were talking about the founder of mormonism, not his son. I apologize, I have never been a mormon and didn't realize that his full name was Joseph Smith Jr.
As for my take on your account of the events: I understand that you do not condone the lynching, and that he was no longer a member. I will assume that the masons would not officialy condone it either. But, if there were masons in the crowd as you say, then your fraternity would have officialy stained itself with the same blood as many church and pseudo-christian organizations have. Notice that I said church organizations and not the church, which is niether a building, an organization, nor a denomination but, is the Bride of Christ, the full sum of the true worshipers that Jesus mentioned; who worship God in Spirit and in truth (honest and heartfelt). So, welcpme to the club, (ha! club, that's funny! *clears throat* anywho,) of false accusations. Sololmon said that wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destoyeth much good. It's kinda like one rotten apple spoils the bunch. I believe that is why God ordained us (those in Christ) to be in this house of mirrors but, not of it. I also believe that those masons mentioned should have also been expelled.
So masons aren't polygamists. You know, you never have clearly and specifically defined what the masons
are, just what they are not. Maybe in your next post you could do that. It raises in my mind even more questions. Are there homosexual masons? What is the official policy on that? Is polygamy simply a matter of social and ethical concern (only one man to one woman, and such,) or is it also a religious one? And can policy be written at all without any religious (by religion I mean a system of belief and a particular world view, which includes philosophy and atheism,) influence? I think that it's time that we all face it: there is no such thing as separation of church (refering to the previous perethetical,) and state.

 

[ZionKnight]

You can also learn more about Freemasonry by Ex-Masons for Jesus at the official website of the Order of Former Freemasons

Now that's informative, clear, and concise. That answers the core question we christians have been asking throughout this thread: Can an informed christian, in good consience, be a mason? I suggest you check this out before you make your conclusion.

 

[amadeus72]

You know, you never have clearly and specifically defined what the masons
are, just what they are not. Maybe in your next post you could do that.

In a nutshell, the Freemasons are a philosophical fraternal order. The philosophy of Masonry is derived from the Enlightenment, and, at least in theory, continues to embody those ideals. One of my personal critcisms of Masonry is that this is no longer the universal case in practice. The ceremonies of initiation remain the same, which do indeed teach the concepts the Enlightenment, but today most Masons view their fraternity as a social club rather than a philosophical institution with a fascinating history (which most know little or nothing about).

It raises in my mind even more questions. Are there homosexual masons? What is the official policy on that?

No official policy. The only homosexual Mason that I'm personally aware of is the famous 19th century British poet Oscar Wilde.

Is polygamy simply a matter of social and ethical concern (only one man to one woman, and such,) or is it also a religious one? And can policy be written at all without any religious (by religion I mean a system of belief and a particular world view, which includes philosophy and atheism,) influence? I think that it's time that we all face it: there is no such thing as separation of church (refering to the previous perethetical,) and state.

Polygamy can be viewed in several different ways, but from the Grand Lodge of Illinois, it was a legal issue.

 

[O.F.F.]

Also, in order to counter O.F.F.'s website's claim, . . .

Our claims of Masonic heresy are supported by Scripture. The bible cannot be refuted, unless you do not consider it to be the revealed Word of God.

 

[O.F.F.]

. . . we do not need you to interpret the Bible for us, nor do I personally care what you consider "heresy".

This is a public forum, so what you "personally care about" doesn't necessarily matter. Therefore, while you don't care about heresy, there may be others here who do. Certainly true Christians should care about false teaching, for the Bible warns us about it. Hence we should be prepared to defend the truth against such garbage as The Da Vinci Code.

As to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry, we [O.F.F.] speak from our firsthand experience as former Masons. By what authority do you make your claims about the topic of this thread? Are you a Mason?

No one is trying to interpret the Bible for you. True Christians know that according to Scripture itself, only the Holy Spirit can interpret it for all who want to seriously consider what it has to say (1 Corinthians 2:6-16). And, those who are among the biblically illiterate are as gullible to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry as they are to the heresy found in The Da Vinci Code.

The key to overcoming such ignorance is to diligently study the bible to show yourself approved of God, in order to recognize heresy and accurately explain the Truth of God's Word (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[ZionKnight]

Actually, I think this is a view held by many outside of the organization, by those who may be somewhat familiar with Masonic teachings and/or history, but not its hierarchy and government.

The "highest ranks" within the Masonic organization is the Grand Lodge, which is the fraternity's government. In the United States, each state has its own Grand Lodge, and there is one for the District of Columbia. These Grand Lodges exist in mutual recognition with each other, which means we all recognize each other as members of the same fraternity, and intervisit each other's Lodges. If one Grand Lodge begins to issue policies that conflict with the ancient constitutions of the fraternity, recognition may be withdrawn, and they lose their international Masonic legitimacy. This has happened in the past to Grand Lodges and Subordinate Lodges overseas.

Canada has a Grand Lodge in each Province, and there are Grand Lodges in England, Ireland, Scotland, and most other democratic nations. However, Masonry has its largest membership base in the US, Canada, and UK.

Far from being a nefarious cabal, the Grand Lodge is a representative body, and many historians have reached the consensus that the idea of the US Congress, as derived from our forefathers as a representative government, was based on Masonic government, many of whom were Masonic leaders as well as American ones.

Grand Lodges consist of three representatives from each Lodge. Every Master Mason in good standing is invited to attend all meetings of the Grand Lodge, but each Lodge has only three votes in Grand Lodge, and these belong to the representatives. Usually, the representatives are the Master and two Wardens of each Lodge, each of whom are elected by their Lodge to one year terms, by popular ballot.

When congregated, the Grand Lodge then elects Grand Lodge officers. This includes the Grand Master, who is the chief officer of the fraternity in his state or province. Depending on the Grand Lodge, the Grand Lodge officers are elected to either one or two year terms.

After their terms of office have expired, they step down and return to the sidelines, and are replaced by new officers, much like in the secular government.

Therefore, Masonic government is not a self-continuing cabal, but a democratically-elected slate of officers whose duty is to serve the fraternity during their respective terms.

As one who has served in leadership positions at both the Lodge and Grand Lodge level, I can honestly say that our deliberations concern much more what is to be served at the banquet and how many buses should be rented for conventions, rather than world domination.

I am pretty sure that he is, O.F.F. He has been our standing representitive of the masons throught this thread. Through our discourse with him, we have discovered a lot about the mason philosophy and, I think that we came to a clear colusion that a true christian that has been informed of the specifics can not hold their feet in both worlds. All of which can be easily read in your link, which serves as a perfect sealer to this matter.

 

[O.F.F.]

I am pretty sure that he is, O.F.F. He has been our standing representitive of the masons throught this thread. Through our discourse with him, we have discovered a lot about the mason philosophy and, I think that we came to a clear colusion that a true christian that has been informed of the specifics can not hold their feet in both worlds. All of which can be easily read in your link, which serves as a perfect sealer to this matter.

Thanks ZK for letting me know his status, and for your comments about our web site. I thought he might be a Mason, but I missed the post you provided.

You hit on the crux of the matter, as far as I'm concerned. As a fellow laborer in this mission field once said, "You can't be an informed Christian and an informed Mason at the same time, unless you are in deliberate rebellion against God."-- Steven Tsoukalas

I would add that, if after being informed a Christian persists in Freemasonry, he is probably not a Christian at all.

Thanks again my brother!