Masons

[Harlin]

No, and I don't expect to. There is no question of which was derived from which. There is the similarity of words like "El," which was used of deity in practically all of the Canaanite religions. The path of descent from the other religions to adoption by Israel, was a mystery until the discovery of an abundance of texts at Ugarit that provided a bridge.

Hello,

do you believe that the Bible is derived from Pagan theology?

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Rev Wayne]

Taxil or no Taxil, the point remains the same, one only has to look at the symbology used by the Mason's to understand what they are really all about.

Then make a direct reference and explain why. I disagree that this is "all you have to do." I look at the same symbols, and I say the same thing, that I understand what they are all about, but this understanding is different from yours, therefore your statement cannot hold true across the board for everyone who does the same. It's a subjective enterprise steered by individual conceptions, and fueled by a tremendous amount of misinformation--most of which is done deliberately by those who profit from human fears.

With an institution as old as Freemasonry, any attempt to define "what they are all about" must take into account both the history of the order and the history of its symbols.

For instance, I've seen accusations about pentagrams in Masonry. The implication is, of course, that since pentagrams are associated with satanism, that Freemasonry is therefore to be considered satanic in nature. But at the time the pentagram entered Masonry (and I honestly can't even tell you where you'd find it, I certainly never see it), there were no satanic connotations to it at all. The pentagram derivation in Masonry comes from the Christian Church, where it was commonly used as a symbol of the five wounds of Christ. Since the Protestant Reformation, the church has lost a great deal of its symbolism (unless one is Catholic), and this is one which fell into disuse rather quickly. Along with that decline, came a new development: the use of pentagrams as satanic symbols. Accusations of satanism based on the pentagram are anachronistic.

Another accusation involves the use of "so mote it be" to end prayers in the lodge. In reality, "so mote it be" says nothing more or less than "amen." But because (1) someone saw it in a wiccan ritual, (2) because they found somewhere else that wicca may have patterned their rituals after Freemasonry, and (3) because wicca is considered witchcraft, they drew the immediate conclusion that Freemasonry is therefore satanic or wrapped up in it in some way. But "so mote it be" is also of Christian derivation, and is from a time frame in Masonry that predates even the formation of modern Masonry with the founding of the UGLE in 1717. Masonry is very resistant to changing anything in its rituals, and thus they are preserved from some very early times, resulting in several archaisms in their content. I have found at least one example of "so mote it be" appearing at the end of a Middle English version of the Lord's Prayer. It is very hard to read, being a mixture of Middle English and the Latin Vulgate, but it is unmistakable even in English.

You can convince yourself all you like that there is nothing sinister about the Mason's, but it doesn't change the obvious facts blaring in our faces, all you have to do is look.

You keep saying that, but vaguely. I can give you specifics, having seen it from the inside, there is nothing sinister about it. There are church members there also, and even one of the local Baptist ministers. In fact, estimates of Masons who are Christians are generally in the 80's and 90's percentage-wise. We regularly end prayers "in Jesus' name" in my lodge, and with no objection to it at all, contrary to the notion that "Jesus' name is forbidden" in lodge. If one chooses York Rite for the "higher" degrees, there are degrees which have as a primary requirement, a belief in Jesus Christ.

Mason's don't let all their secrets out all at once, that's why they have levels or degree's, thats why you have to be "invited" up to the next level once you reach a certain degree, not all can just go up to the top.

There is only one degree I know of which is "by invitation only," and that is 33rd degree Scottish Rite. All the others are by the choice of the individual, contingent upon completion of the degree work. These days, progression through the degrees can be a snap if one wishes to pursue such a course. There are places where the degrees are put on in a day. I have listened to conversations about it with the guys in my lodge, and I get the idea that in our jurisdiction, the typical practice is to put on half the degrees in one session, and half in another.

People get the wrong impression too, about "higher" degrees. The only place that comes from is misinterpretation of what people read, from sources that most of them are reading only to forage for accusable material they can slant. Past Masters of the lodge frequently fill in at whatever slot they are needed, taking the "lower" offices in degree work, etc. Nor do I see anything in the way of attitude to suggest that anyone considers anything in the degrees a matter of superiority/inferiority. Last Saturday I visited another lodge for a first degree presentation, and before it started, I was engaged in wonderful, informal, light-hearted conversation with a gentleman sitting next to me, who I assumed to be one of the locals who belonged to that lodge. Imagine my surprise, when we were about to start, when he walked over to the Master's chair to preside over the meeting. I was even more surprised later to discover this was a former District Deputy Grand Master as well.

That's just it, we're regular, ordinary folks, we go to your church, we work with you, our children go to school with yours, I'm even finding out more than ever lately there are quite a number of us working with your local fire station.

Just because I don't have the book to look for myself, doesn't mean that it is automatically a "conspiracy theory" or haux. There are other ways and means.

How well I know. I've visited quite a few of them myself. They can be pretty convincing, especially to those who do not bother to listen to anybody else.

It is obvious to me because I am not trying to reconcile Freemasonry with Christianity. I do not want to join the two.

Nor do I. My purpose would be more accurately described as separating the myths from reality, which is hard to do with the abundance of myths out there. We have some prolific accusers who are quite adept at "turning a phrase," in the sense of, twisting the truth with half-truths, insinuendoes, and flat-out untruths in the form of deliberately created accusations.

How about the glaringly obvious sun disk that the priest puts the "eucharist" into and hold it up in his hands, before offering it to the people. The huge Phallic symbol outside the Vatican, (and the Mason's use hundreds of these all over the place too, ie outside the Whitehouse.), representing a huge male member, lining up with the door (the representative of a female member) of the Vatican itself. The Pope wears a fish mitre, the same as the priest of Dagon used to wear when he served in the temple.

I'm not a Catholic, I've never done this or seen this. Nor have I seen what you describe anywhere in the lodge. But at least I see your true colors with the statements of the last paragraph.

I could go on, but all you need to do is look into the Babylonian Mystery Religion Symbology and you just start recognising it everywhere.

Absolutely--only don't mistake "imagining" for "recognizing." You've described nothing that represents anything associated with the lodge at all, and have (and strangely so) pulled in totally irrelevant comments about practices of an institution which has historically been at odds with Freemasonry almost since its inception.

do you believe that the Bible is derived from Pagan theology?

In a word: no. In fact, I don't even believe it is "derived." But neither do I believe it was written in a vacuum.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Well, if the Mason's believe those myths, then they do. You should study the symbology, they are so close.

Such as?

 

[Harlin]

Then make a direct reference and explain why. I disagree that this is "all you have to do." I look at the same symbols, and I say the same thing, that I understand what they are all about, but this understanding is different from yours, therefore your statement cannot hold true across the board for everyone who does the same. It's a subjective enterprise steered by individual conceptions, and fueled by a tremendous amount of misinformation--most of which is done deliberately by those who profit from human fears.

With an institution as old as Freemasonry, any attempt to define "what they are all about" must take into account both the history of the order and the history of its symbols.

For instance, I've seen accusations about pentagrams in Masonry. The implication is, of course, that since pentagrams are associated with satanism, that Freemasonry is therefore to be considered satanic in nature. But at the time the pentagram entered Masonry (and I honestly can't even tell you where you'd find it, I certainly never see it), there were no satanic connotations to it at all. The pentagram derivation in Masonry comes from the Christian Church, where it was commonly used as a symbol of the five wounds of Christ. Since the Protestant Reformation, the church has lost a great deal of its symbolism (unless one is Catholic), and this is one which fell into disuse rather quickly. Along with that decline, came a new development: the use of pentagrams as satanic symbols. Accusations of satanism based on the pentagram are anachronistic.

Another accusation involves the use of "so mote it be" to end prayers in the lodge. In reality, "so mote it be" says nothing more or less than "amen." But because (1) someone saw it in a wiccan ritual, (2) because they found somewhere else that wicca may have patterned their rituals after Freemasonry, and (3) because wicca is considered witchcraft, they drew the immediate conclusion that Freemasonry is therefore satanic or wrapped up in it in some way. But "so mote it be" is also of Christian derivation, and is from a time frame in Masonry that predates even the formation of modern Masonry with the founding of the UGLE in 1717. Masonry is very resistant to changing anything in its rituals, and thus they are preserved from some very early times, resulting in several archaisms in their content. I have found at least one example of "so mote it be" appearing at the end of a Middle English version of the Lord's Prayer. It is very hard to read, being a mixture of Middle English and the Latin Vulgate, but it is unmistakable even in English.


You keep saying that, but vaguely. I can give you specifics, having seen it from the inside, there is nothing sinister about it. There are church members there also, and even one of the local Baptist ministers. In fact, estimates of Masons who are Christians are generally in the 80's and 90's percentage-wise. We regularly end prayers "in Jesus' name" in my lodge, and with no objection to it at all, contrary to the notion that "Jesus' name is forbidden" in lodge. If one chooses York Rite for the "higher" degrees, there are degrees which have as a primary requirement, a belief in Jesus Christ.


There is only one degree I know of which is "by invitation only," and that is 33rd degree Scottish Rite. All the others are by the choice of the individual, contingent upon completion of the degree work. These days, progression through the degrees can be a snap if one wishes to pursue such a course. There are places where the degrees are put on in a day. I have listened to conversations about it with the guys in my lodge, and I get the idea that in our jurisdiction, the typical practice is to put on half the degrees in one session, and half in another.

People get the wrong impression too, about "higher" degrees. The only place that comes from is misinterpretation of what people read, from sources that most of them are reading only to forage for accusable material they can slant. Past Masters of the lodge frequently fill in at whatever slot they are needed, taking the "lower" offices in degree work, etc. Nor do I see anything in the way of attitude to suggest that anyone considers anything in the degrees a matter of superiority/inferiority. Last Saturday I visited another lodge for a first degree presentation, and before it started, I was engaged in wonderful, informal, light-hearted conversation with a gentleman sitting next to me, who I assumed to be one of the locals who belonged to that lodge. Imagine my surprise, when we were about to start, when he walked over to the Master's chair to preside over the meeting. I was even more surprised later to discover this was a former District Deputy Grand Master as well.

That's just it, we're regular, ordinary folks, we go to your church, we work with you, our children go to school with yours, I'm even finding out more than ever lately there are quite a number of us working with your local fire station.


How well I know. I've visited quite a few of them myself. They can be pretty convincing, especially to those who do not bother to listen to anybody else.


Nor do I. My purpose would be more accurately described as separating the myths from reality, which is hard to do with the abundance of myths out there. We have some prolific accusers who are quite adept at "turning a phrase," in the sense of, twisting the truth with half-truths, insinuendoes, and flat-out untruths in the form of deliberately created accusations.


I'm not a Catholic, I've never done this or seen this. Nor have I seen what you describe anywhere in the lodge. But at least I see your true colors with the statements of the last paragraph.


Absolutely--only don't mistake "imagining" for "recognizing." You've described nothing that represents anything associated with the lodge at all, and have (and strangely so) pulled in totally irrelevant comments about practices of an institution which has historically been at odds with Freemasonry almost since its inception.


In a word: no. In fact, I don't even believe it is "derived." But neither do I believe it was written in a vacuum.

Hello,

You can keep on "defending" the Mason's all you like, it doesn't change what goes on inside those lodges, the same as what went on in the "Mystery" Babylonian Religion. If you want to close your eyes to the obvious astounding evidence, well then that is your choice. It is not mine however, and if that shows my true colours, well I am fine with that, calling sin and darkness by it's true name is absolutely fine by me.

How can, may I ask, one "imagine" one is seeing a pagan symbol, if one is not actually seeing it? like you are suggesting.....Your response makes no sense, just again defending the Lodge you obviously love so much. If you would only look (not through rose coloured glasses), you too, would see the similarities between the supposed completely opposing "organisations".

The Mason's do use pagan symbols, ask a Wiccan witch, or a Satanist (apparently, they post in the non-christian religion section), they will tell you they too recognise the symbols, like the checkers on the floors which represent the dual nature of God (which by the way my God is 100% love all of the time), the "G", that they use, which is a pagan "generative" symbol, the "special pin tie" with the "Two Ball Cane" on it, which refers to the male reproductive organ. Again, I could go on, maybe I will later, I don't have time at the moment. Maybe there is no point.........who knows.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[JasonV]

Hello,

You can keep on "defending" the Mason's all you like, it doesn't change what goes on inside those lodges, the same as what went on in the "Mystery" Babylonian Religion. If you want to close your eyes to the obvious astounding evidence, well then that is your choice. It is not mine however, and if that shows my true colours, well I am fine with that, calling sin and darkness by it's true name is absolutely fine by me.

Actually, it's my belief that there is no symbol under the sun that has not been used by a "pagan" religion at some point in history. Everything, from the Christian Cross to those nifty fishies on the trunks of cars was used by pagans. The way you pray, the fact that you read from a holy book, all of it predates Christianity.

It's not what symbols may have meant to others, it's what they mean to you that counts.

 

[Rev Wayne]

the "special pin tie" with the "Two Ball Cane" on it, which refers to the male reproductive organ.

I never heard of this till you posted it. Honestly, I thought you were kidding, it was such a silly-sounding statement. When I did find it, they had accompanying commentary by none other than the antimasonic "authority," Bill Schnoebelen. 'Nuff said.

The pin is simply a pun on the name Tubalcain, a name associated with Masonry when the first operative Masons began developing the allegorical components of speculative Masonry. It was a natural fit, since Tubalcain was the father of metalworkers. And the pin itself is a strange shape if you wish to make it a phallic symbol. It's a walking cane, complete with 90 degree fork at the top. The two balls could just as well be golf balls, they are only there as part of the pun. And they are located halfway up the shaft, which would be a strange position for what you're claiming. I went searching just to find out what in the world you were talking about, and one of them I pulled up looks more like a cross than anything else.

The only creature that could claim this as a phallus symbol would be the possum (although the possum's is forked rather than bent). So unless you've been studying phallus symbols and found that they are shaped with a 90-degree angle at the top, I'm afraid the only connection is the imaginary kind, concocted by some antimason who has nothing better to do with his time than sit around and dream up this hokum--and definitely has sexual hangups of some kind, though I wouldn't care to hazard a guess on that point.

You've been visiting too many idiot websites. All I can do is pray for you that God will lead you back to reality.

How can, may I ask, one "imagine" one is seeing a pagan symbol, if one is not actually seeing it? like you are suggesting.....Your response makes no sense

You quoted the above piece, and yet you talk to me about making sense??

I never stated, implied, or even remotely hinted that you imagined seeing pagan symbols. The imaginary part is that you thought they were pagan. You even had it all confused with Catholicism, an organization that is totally dead-set against Masonry.

the "G", that they use, which is a pagan "generative" symbol,

First I've heard of this. Source, please?

The G has a dual meaning: (1) Geometry, the knowledge of which was always essential to the operatives; (2) God, since it starts with the same letter.

I could go on, maybe I will later

Please do, this is almost as comical as the old Freemasonrywatch crew.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You can keep on "defending" the Mason's all you like, it doesn't change what goes on inside those lodges, the same as what went on in the "Mystery" Babylonian Religion. If you want to close your eyes to the obvious astounding evidence, well then that is your choice. It is not mine however, and if that shows my true colours, well I am fine with that, calling sin and darkness by it's true name is absolutely fine by me.

Sounds just like my kids. They turn up their noses all the time at food they never tried.

So how do you know "what goes on" in the lodge without ever having set foot in one? By reading antimasonic websites? I've been there, we occasionally have degree work, which is more like a play or live drama than any other description you could give it. Otherwise, we have a meeting once a month, with a meal preceding it, and it's similar to a church business meeting--"any old business?"--"any new business?"--prayer requests are taken and then we pray--we address any upcoming events or fundraisers--we close. Nothing too complicated, and certainly far from "sinister."

The Mason's do use pagan symbols, ask a Wiccan witch, or a Satanist (apparently, they post in the non-christian religion section), they will tell you they too recognise the symbols, like the checkers on the floors which represent the dual nature of God

If you ask a Wiccan witch, you will get a Wiccan answer. If you ask a satanist, you will get a satanist answer. Neither of them answers for Masonry.

As for the checkered floor, once again you seem to swallow whatever anyone besides a Mason will spoon-feed you. I can't speak for Masonry, but I can share with you what those who speak for Masonry in my jurisdiction have said on the matter:

The Mosaic Pavement is emblematical of human life, checked with good and evil, the beautiful border which surrounds it is emblematical of those manifold blessings and comforts which surround us, and which we hope to obtain by a faithful reliance on Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by the blazing star in the center. (Ahiman Rezon, 2003, p. 94)

Life is filled with good and evil, we have blessings and comforts surrounding us, we seek them by relying in faith in the faifhfulness of God......exactly where is this dual nature stuff?

And will you call the cross a "pagan symbol" since it was in use as a religious symbol long before its use in Christianity?

 

[FEZZILLA]

Hey guys,
Not sure where this goes but I like to come in here and read a lot so I posted it here (PLEASE send me a private message is it has been moved!!) ...

OK.. here goes my question:

What is the deal with The Masons? Who are they? Are they considered Christians? Is this a Cult? Can you "get out" of this fraternity?

Thanks!

FreeMasons are not Christians and the farthest thing away from being Christian. However--and this is very important--the real Masons pretend to be Christians complaining about FreeMason infiltrations in the church while subtly leading the reader into either Satanism or atheism. FreeMasonry is a form of Satanism/Witchcraft (one and the same in Christian theology) that pratice a now popular systematic form of brainwashing called alchemy. It is a very subtle method of lying (Dan Brown also uses it) that takes an individual from one level of faith in God and slowly reduces the believer with a weak foundation to a state that results with the Christian blaspheming God and turning to nazi or communism for their (supposed) salvation from Christ. Masonry is extremely evil and full of lies that normal people with common sense reject on the premise of pure ignorance. But it feeds off of those who have no understanding of history or a true Biblical understanding. This same subtle method of philosophy is used by several Humanists to further advance Social Darwinism in every country. I would not ever even suggest that a Christian is a FreeMason since the two faiths contradict each other to the point of war.

Names and titles, unimportant. There are so man y titles for the same thing. All of this evil agrees with other evil groups that go under other title and all of them work together to advance the same common agenda: Destroy Christianity! Its all the work of Satan (Gen.3:1) and I have personally witnessed what these evil minds will do out of ignorance to do away with those who believe God.

My former best friend lost his soul to all those conspiracy theories that continuely pressed on certain nerves of his brain until he was antagonized to the point where he began to blaspheme the name of God and join the Humanist Manifesto in order to remove all churches on State property. He literally turned into Dar-Vader. Its very sad.

 

[FEZZILLA]

You can keep on "defending" the Mason's all you like, it doesn't change what goes on inside those lodges, the same as what went on in the "Mystery" Babylonian Religion.

FreeMasonry is indeed a mystery religion in the truest sense of the term. There is no way a Mason can prove any claim they believe. Its all unknowable conspiracy theories that hold their mystery religion together. They would never take on a Christian theolgian in true debate televised for the world to see. They would get crushed and beaten with every assumption and contradiction that came out their mouths. These dudes actually believe that Gen.4:1 means that Lucifer slept with Eve and bore Cain; and that the Jesuits sunk the Titanic to kill a Jew! These thugs are foolish to believe this, let alone blaspheme the name of God over such conspiracy theories. Its sad.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

So I take it from all of this thread no one here really knows anything about the Masons. Interesting.

 

[FEZZILLA]

So I take it from all of this thread no one here really knows anything about the Masons. Interesting.

So are you implying that Christianity is FreeMasonry? I have spent two long brutal years refuting the sins of the occult and I know for certain that FreeMasonry is the worship of Satan. Titles don't really matter, all these radical groups live for the same line of manipulation and love the twist everything they can in order to deceive every nation. I have witnessed this evil and warn you or however is reading not to get into this trap by buying into this propaganda because you will lose your soul by doing so.

 

[Rev Wayne]

FreeMasonry is a form of Satanism/Witchcraft (one and the same in Christian theology) that pratice a now popular systematic form of brainwashing called alchemy.

Okay, at least this gives a better handle on where you're coming from with this. No one in the lodge practices alchemy. That is pure nonsense. So is the suggestion of satanism. Apparently your misinformation has derived from pseudo-masonic groups and not true Freemasonry. But your statements are rather bizarre, and from what I've seen, way out there even when compared with other stuff I've seen.

Freemasonry's roots are thoroughly Christian, and its principles are solidly founded on the Bible. The accusations by those who profit from lying about the Lodge have been pretty much refuted by the steady work in the last few years by people like Brent Morris and Art DeHoyos in "Is it True What They Say About the Masonic Lodge?" I highly recommend it, as it shows the pattern of errors and lies that has been followed by the antimason crowd. But judging from the current level of posting, they have yet more work to do. Apparently the reaction to having their arguments shot down, was to turn up the volume and try to drown out the exposition of their lies with a new chorus of even more bizarre rantings. I sure hope you will think about what you are doing and not take part in their lying ways by repeating such nonsense as though it were truth.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I know for certain that FreeMasonry is the worship of Satan.

Based on what information, and from what source? I can yell at the top of my lungs that the Pope wears a beanie and perhaps get someone to believe it. But if I don't back it up with solid evidence rather than undocumented accusations, then who will believe it?

(Besides, it only looks like a beanie cap)

 

[Rev Wayne]

These dudes actually believe that Gen.4:1 means that Lucifer slept with Eve and bore Cain; and that the Jesuits sunk the Titanic to kill a Jew! These thugs are foolish to believe this, let alone blaspheme the name of God over such conspiracy theories. Its sad.

It's sad that anyone would actually believe such tripe. I've never seen any assertion anywhere that this is believed anywhere in Masonry. And I have never believed any such thing either before or after becoming a Mason. If you continue to post such hogwash without any reference to your sources, then you are just as guilty as they are in spreading lying accusations against Masons.

 

[JasonV]

FreeMasons are not Christians and the farthest thing away from being Christian.

Based on theology or their actions?

However--and this is very important--the real Masons pretend to be Christians complaining about FreeMason infiltrations in the church while subtly leading the reader into either Satanism or atheism.

Satanism could be possible I suppose, but atheism is not allowed in Freemasonry (except, of course, for the Grand Orient in France.)

FreeMasonry is a form of Satanism/Witchcraft (one and the same in Christian theology) that pratice a now popular systematic form of brainwashing called alchemy.

Well I would disagree just based on history. Freemasonry predates all modern forms of Witchcraft, Wicca, and Satanism. Yet, Freemasonry neither advocates the worship of Satan, nor nature per se.

It is a very subtle method of lying (Dan Brown also uses it) that takes an individual from one level of faith in God and slowly reduces the believer with a weak foundation to a state that results with the Christian blaspheming God and turning to nazi or communism for their (supposed) salvation from Christ.

That's an interesting accusation. Historically it's absurd because both the Nazi's and the Soviet Communists rounded up and jailed Freemasons during WWII.

Masonry is extremely evil and full of lies that normal people with common sense reject on the premise of pure ignorance.

So people with common sense are purely ignorant? I don't think I follow here.

But it feeds off of those who have no understanding of history or a true Biblical understanding.

It seems to me that you need to spend some time with actual history books by real historians, and avoid the fanciful tales told by the profitmakers.

This same subtle method of philosophy is used by several Humanists to further advance Social Darwinism in every country. I would not ever even suggest that a Christian is a FreeMason since the two faiths contradict each other to the point of war.

Well there you go. Freemasonry is not Christian. I admit that quite openly. Freemasonry is not any religion. It's a fraternity. End of story.

Names and titles, unimportant. There are so man y titles for the same thing. All of this evil agrees with other evil groups that go under other title and all of them work together to advance the same common agenda: Destroy Christianity! Its all the work of Satan (Gen.3:1) and I have personally witnessed what these evil minds will do out of ignorance to do away with those who believe God.

Freemasonry want's to destroy Christianity? How come we never talk about that in my Lodge? Hmm?

My former best friend lost his soul to all those conspiracy theories that continuely pressed on certain nerves of his brain until he was antagonized to the point where he began to blaspheme the name of God and join the Humanist Manifesto in order to remove all churches on State property. He literally turned into Dar-Vader. Its very sad.

Literally? Wow. So does he wear the same mask? Does he have the "force"? I'd like to meet him. Can we have coffee sometime?

FreeMasonry is indeed a mystery religion in the truest sense of the term. There is no way a Mason can prove any claim they believe.

Especially for people who don't accept facts as truth.

Its all unknowable conspiracy theories that hold their mystery religion together.

If it's unknowable as you claim, then how do you know about it?

They would never take on a Christian theolgian in true debate televised for the world to see.

I would.

They would get crushed and beaten with every assumption and contradiction that came out their mouths. These dudes actually believe that Gen.4:1 means that Lucifer slept with Eve and bore Cain; and that the Jesuits sunk the Titanic to kill a Jew! These thugs are foolish to believe this, let alone blaspheme the name of God over such conspiracy theories. Its sad.

Well I don't believe in any of that. So I don't have to defend it.

I have spent two long brutal years refuting the sins of the occult and I know for certain that FreeMasonry is the worship of Satan.

The Occult is sinful? We must have different ideas about what "occult" is. And we worship Satan? Is that what that black headed goat is in my lodge room? What if I don't kiss it's anus, can I be saved still?

 

[Harlin]

Actually, it's my belief that there is no symbol under the sun that has not been used by a "pagan" religion at some point in history. Everything, from the Christian Cross to those nifty fishies on the trunks of cars was used by pagans. The way you pray, the fact that you read from a holy book, all of it predates Christianity.

It's not what symbols may have meant to others, it's what they mean to you that counts.

Hello,

I tend to agree that most all symbols are pagan. Therefore I believe that they have no such place in Christianity, God and Satan do nothing in partnership, pagan symbols represent false dieties and also many have lewd sexual connotations, which also were practiced and embraced in pagan ceremonies, they do NOT belong in Christianity, even if most of the "Christian" world have adopted many of them.

I believe even the cross has no place in Christianity, except that Jesus was crucified on it, otherwise I believe it to be a symbol for the pagan god "Tammuz", ie: the hot "crossed" (crossed with a "t", to commemorate the birth of Tammuz from the queen of heaven, "Istar" might have spelling wrong here.) buns at easter, also pagan. (Jer 7:18).

But even though many of these are then given "Christian explainations" I do not agree seeing as they have stemmed from Paganism. Satan is crafty, he brings in these things unawares, not out in the open, just like at the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" where he "beguiled" Eve.

The way we pray was demonstrated by Jesus himself, I do not believe it to be Pagan. The Word of God was given by God, I do not consider it to be Pagan. God is Holy, His Word is Holy, I have no problem with that.

As a Christian, would one truly want to adopt symbology into your religion that traditionally embraces and is recognised in Satanism. All false religion is indeed Satanism (as he is the founder of all lies) and therefore part of the occult. Babylonian Mystery Religion was against God, they worshipped the creation, not the creator. That is an offence to God and violates His commandments. We are exhorted to not have fellowship with such, why would we want to actually embrace these practices?

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Quote:
the "special pin tie" with the "Two Ball Cane" on it, which refers to the male reproductive organ.
I never heard of this till you posted it. Honestly, I thought you were kidding, it was such a silly-sounding statement. When I did find it, they had accompanying commentary by none other than the antimasonic "authority," Bill Schnoebelen. 'Nuff said.

The pin is simply a pun on the name Tubalcain, a name associated with Masonry when the first operative Masons began developing the allegorical components of speculative Masonry. It was a natural fit, since Tubalcain was the father of metalworkers. And the pin itself is a strange shape if you wish to make it a phallic symbol. It's a walking cane, complete with 90 degree fork at the top. The two balls could just as well be golf balls, they are only there as part of the pun. And they are located halfway up the shaft, which would be a strange position for what you're claiming. I went searching just to find out what in the world you were talking about, and one of them I pulled up looks more like a cross than anything else.

The only creature that could claim this as a phallus symbol would be the possum (although the possum's is forked rather than bent). So unless you've been studying phallus symbols and found that they are shaped with a 90-degree angle at the top, I'm afraid the only connection is the imaginary kind, concocted by some antimason who has nothing better to do with his time than sit around and dream up this hokum--and definitely has sexual hangups of some kind, though I wouldn't care to hazard a guess on that point.

You've been visiting too many idiot websites. All I can do is pray for you that God will lead you back to reality.

You know, I find it interesting that you had never heard of this, anyway the below statement may give you a clearer understanding on this "Tubal Cain":

In the "Masonic Quiz Book" the question is asked: "Who was Tubal Cain?" The answer is: "He is the Vulcan of the pagans".

William P Peterson, Editor,Masonic Quiz Book:"Ask me another Brother" (Chicago, Illunois: Charles T. Powner Company, 1950), p. 18, 88, 131, 213; John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of Their Origin and Antiquity: With a General Histroy of Freemasonry and It's Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries (Belfast, Ireland: William Tait, 1909), p. 30.

Occultist and Mason, Manly Palmer Hall has this to say:

"When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mastery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare".

Manly Palmer Hall, The Lost Keys of Freemasonry (Richmond, Virginia: Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc, 1976 Edition), p. 48.

Odd?.......Why would a Mason say such a thing?

Quote:
the "G", that they use, which is a pagan "generative" symbol,
First I've heard of this. Source, please?

The G has a dual meaning: (1) Geometry, the knowledge of which was always essential to the operatives; (2) God, since it starts with the same letter.

The "G" is quite prominent in Masonry. In the lower degrees, the Mason is told that the "G" stands for "Geometry" or "God". The occultist Eliphas Levi, however informs us that the "G" stands for Venus and that Venus' symbol is a lingam (a symbol of the male private part)!

Arthur Edward Waite, The Mysteries of Magic: A Digest of the Writings of Eliphas Levi (Chicago, Illinois: De Laurence, Scott and Company, 1909), p. 217

Venus is another name for Lucifer within the occult.

The World Book Encyclopedia (1961 Edition, Vol 18) p. 251.

Quote:
I could go on, maybe I will later
Please do, this is almost as comical as the old Freemasonrywatch crew.

I will go on, I hope you are finding this only "almost" comical. I believe it to be very serious.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Sounds just like my kids. They turn up their noses all the time at food they never tried.

So how do you know "what goes on" in the lodge without ever having set foot in one? By reading antimasonic websites? I've been there, we occasionally have degree work, which is more like a play or live drama than any other description you could give it. Otherwise, we have a meeting once a month, with a meal preceding it, and it's similar to a church business meeting--"any old business?"--"any new business?"--prayer requests are taken and then we pray--we address any upcoming events or fundraisers--we close. Nothing too complicated, and certainly far from "sinister."

The occult is not like "food", one doesn't need to taste test it.

I tend to take the words of Mason's and Former Mason's who are/were involved in the higher degrees more seriously and more convincingly that one who doesn't seem to know what actually goes on within the institute in which he is involved.

If you ask a Wiccan witch, you will get a Wiccan answer. If you ask a satanist, you will get a satanist answer. Neither of them answers for Masonry.

Yes, and it turns out that if you ask a "Mason" in the know, then you get a Masonic answer, much like in the "Masonic Quiz Book".

They are all one in the same, they all share the same beliefs when you get to the nitty gritty of it all. It's all false religion. Since when did Jesus set up an organisation that was to embrace all religions?, he didn't he came to set us free by the truth.

The Mosaic Pavement is emblematical of human life, checked with good and evil, the beautiful border which surrounds it is emblematical of those manifold blessings and comforts which surround us, and which we hope to obtain by a faithful reliance on Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by the blazing star in the center. (Ahiman Rezon, 2003, p. 94)

Life is filled with good and evil, we have blessings and comforts surrounding us, we seek them by relying in faith in the faifhfulness of God......exactly where is this dual nature stuff?

"The Blazing Star in the centre", what?, the Sun?. Pure Sun worship. The blessings given us from the Divine reliance on the Sun.............interesting.

Why would one want to commemorate the evil in our lives by placing a constant reminder of it on the floor, and then show that we receive all our blessings from Divine Providence, which is hieroglyphically represented by "the blazing star in the centre"?

The message is so blatant here, and yet you don't see. A short study on "the blazing star" would be very helpful.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Rev Wayne]

OOPS! Posted twice. See # 341.

 

[Rev Wayne]

The "G" is quite prominent in Masonry. In the lower degrees, the Mason is told that the "G" stands for "Geometry" or "God". The occultist Eliphas Levi, however informs us that the "G" stands for Venus and that Venus' symbol is a lingam (a symbol of the male private part)!

Arthur Edward Waite, The Mysteries of Magic: A Digest of the Writings of Eliphas Levi (Chicago, Illinois: De Laurence, Scott and Company, 1909), p. 217

These are not true Masons, no wonder you're on such a bender. We don't really identify with these guys anyway.