Masons

[kaythib]

hello. im not sure. can u bless me?

 

[buddy mack]

hello. im not sure. can u bless me?

U R blessed. hope that helps

 

[Rev Wayne]

Thomistic? I think your take on it sounds close. But, official freemasonry? I think the biggest pesky difference is that recognition of the name God gave us to call Him.
There is a lot in a name, a lot of implications wrapped up in the covering of a name.

If that were true, then I’m afraid there would be a lot of implications that a lot of people would not want to deal with, once all the biblical names for God are considered.

In the OT, God is called, at various points, Elohim, El, Eli, Elah, Elowah, Adonai, El Elyon, Yehovah, Yehovee, Yehovah-Yireh, Yehovah-Nissi, Yehovah-Shammah, ba’al, Mabligith, and Tsur.

In the NT, God is called Theos or Kurios, neither of which is considered to be a name. Theos is more like our generic word “God,” and in fact is used at least 4 times in the NT in reference to gods other than Jehovah. The general meaning of it is “the one Supreme God” or “Creator.” Kittel says of the word Theos:

The word theos is used in both singular and plural, definite and indefinite, often with little distinction of sense between the gods, god, the god, and the godhead. The term does not denote a specific personalitry but the unity of the religious world in spite of its multiplicity. (p. 323)

Gee, sounds a lot like Freemason concepts.

Of the OT names, El and Elohim are also used to refer to any other god than Jehovah. Not surprising, since the Muslim name Allah and the Jewish Elohim have the same derivation.

I hear this defense about "the name God gave us to call Him" quite often. But apparently in the OT there were several, and in the NT the ones used are generic, although the NT writers certainly appropriated both kurios and theos in more specific fashion.

 

[gwdboi]

I've read several books that said that masons were the protectors of the ancient pagan religions and that the order of the eastern stars was a coven of witches; but it may have just been catholic propoganda.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I've read several books that said that masons were the protectors of the ancient pagan religions and that the order of the eastern stars was a coven of witches; but it may have just been catholic propoganda.

Always a possibility. What books were they, may I ask?

 

[Harlin]

I've read several books that said that masons were the protectors of the ancient pagan religions and that the order of the eastern stars was a coven of witches; but it may have just been catholic propoganda.

Hello,

I find it interesting how the Catholics "condemn" the practices of the Freemason's and yet, the Catholics themselves share heaps and heaps of the pagan symbols in their religion, church buildings and ceremonies as the apparently pagan (as obvious by their symbology) Freemason's do.

All the ancient Babylonian Religion symbology is emblazoned all over them both. With all their Sun disk's, obelisks, phallic symbols, Pine cones, idols, black and white checkers, etc. Why do they share so much in common then?

I also heard a lecture given by Professor Walter Veith (he runs the Amazing Discoveries Website) about Freemasonry, he claimed to have a copy of "Morals and Dogma" (not the one given to the public or that you can buy on the Internet, but one that he received from a relative when he died who was a high degree mason) apparently there is actually two versions. In this book, Albert Pike calls "the grand architect of the Universe" the name for Lucifer, he freely admits to worshipping Lucifer, and yet, at the same time does not believe that Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

Obviously, I don't have the book, so I can't look for myself, but when I see all the Ancient Babylonian symbology plastered all over their lodges and attire, I can only draw the obvious conclusions as I see them.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[chaoschristian]

If we are going to poke sticks at folks for supposedly embracing pagan symbols and mythology, then one must be prepared to poke a pole at whomever wrote Genesis (be it Moses, God or some set of temple priests - all depening on one's subscribed view) because the Creation account is heaped full of veiled references to Babylonian creation mythos.

 

[Rick Otto]

Have ya any info on where the pagans, Babylonians, et. al, got THEIR myths?

I'm not askin' to be pokin' (lol), I seriously wonder if they didn't take & spin what Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, and Methusalah (to name a few) were sayin'.

Anybody heard anything like that before?

 

[chaoschristian]

Have ya any info on where the pagans, Babylonians, et. al, got THEIR myths?

I'm not askin' to be pokin' (lol), I seriously wonder if they didn't take & spin what Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, and Methusalah (to name a few) were sayin'.

Anybody heard anything like that before?

My opinion on this matter probably lies outside of three standard deviations from center, but it is something that's been discussed in the Origins Theology forum before. Threads floating around in there somewhere about this, I'm sure.

 

[Rev Wayne]

apparently there is actually two versions.

Veith may be amazingly creative, but this is no "discovery," it is as much a fabrication as was the Taxil Hoax.

Koheleth had it right: nothing new under the sun. This seems to be especially true when it comes to the accusers of Freemasonry. What you describe is part of the Taxil Hoax of the late 19th century. I came across the Taxil Hoax when I first started researching these things three years ago, and it had been losing ground for some time even then. It still finds a life somehow, but most anti's no longer go there. After all, Taxil published a full confession to the hoax over a century ago.

Obviously, I don't have the book, so I can't look for myself

Pretty convenient, wouldn't you say? That's one of the first tricks in the bag of the paranoia panderers who invent this nonsense, os to convince people, "You can't get hold of these materials just anywhere"--implying, of course, that you have no other access than to come back to him for anything further. That brings you back to the website so he can pander his full line of "secrets" and sell a book to "inform" you so you will not be unarmed in the face of such dangerous people. That's the first hook. The second is, as usual, "this involves Masons in the 'higher' degrees."

when I see all the Ancient Babylonian symbology plastered all over their lodges and attire, I can only draw the obvious conclusions as I see them.

"Obvious," evidently, only to you. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more, and make your comparisons a bit more directly?

 

[Rev Wayne]

I seriously wonder if they didn't take & spin what Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, and Methusalah (to name a few) were sayin'.

Anybody heard anything like that before?

No, and I don't expect to. There is no question of which was derived from which. There is the similarity of words like "El," which was used of deity in practically all of the Canaanite religions. The path of descent from the other religions to adoption by Israel, was a mystery until the discovery of an abundance of texts at Ugarit that provided a bridge.

 

[Harlin]

If we are going to poke sticks at folks for supposedly embracing pagan symbols and mythology, then one must be prepared to poke a pole at whomever wrote Genesis (be it Moses, God or some set of temple priests - all depening on one's subscribed view) because the Creation account is heaped full of veiled references to Babylonian creation mythos.

Well thats fine if you believe that Paganism was developed before creation, but I don't, and I believe the Bible book of Genesis to be God inspired, not Moses inspired.

I am not poking sticks at anyone, I am merely stating what I see, and what I have heard.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Have ya any info on where the pagans, Babylonians, et. al, got THEIR myths?

I'm not askin' to be pokin' (lol), I seriously wonder if they didn't take & spin what Adam, Seth, Enoch, Noah, and Methusalah (to name a few) were sayin'.

Anybody heard anything like that before?

Hello,

I have a hunch they got their mythology from Satan himself, whom they worship.
Harlin

 

[gwdboi]

Always a possibility. What books were they, may I ask?

I don't quite remember, one was entltled something like "The History of Freemasons". The other was something I picked up in a Catholic book store.

 

[Rev Wayne]

one was entltled something like "The History of Freemasons".

There have been plenty of those written, making your reply awful vague, and the value of anything based on such imprecise comments is, well, something like zilch.

And since your earlier statement claimed there were "several" such books you read, and that has now been narrowed down to two, neither of which is identified so readers here can try to locate the source for themselves--then the "information" is not really adding anything, other than more of the same sort of idleness that goes into a lot of antimasonic speculations.

 

[Rev Wayne]

If we are going to poke sticks at folks for supposedly embracing pagan symbols and mythology, then one must be prepared to poke a pole at whomever wrote Genesis (be it Moses, God or some set of temple priests - all depening on one's subscribed view) because the Creation account is heaped full of veiled references to Babylonian creation mythos.

This is very true, but the interesting thing about Genesis chapter one's Creation account is not in the similarities, but in the contrasts. It reads like a polemic against the various cosmological arguments that were held by the religions found in the region. The author uses the similarities to assert the differences. For instance, I don't think the others taught creation ex nihilo, as does Genesis. And the seemingly simple beginning phrase, "In the beginning, God....." refutes atheism, polytheism, and pantheism, in one blow.

And about symbols, what you said is true, even about the cross, which was a religious symbol to the ancient Egyptians, and many other cultures--including American Indians, who were using it as a religious symbol long before anyone came across the ocean teaching them about Jesus.

People get the wrong idea about Masonry and its relation to other religions. Masonry accepts nothing and believes nothing from other religions, other than that body of truth which is found to be affirmed in all monotheistic religions: love God, love others, do good as much as you are able, lift up the fallen, strengthen the weak, help orphans and widows, etc. etc.

I doubt you will find any religion which would oppose these things.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I have a hunch they got their mythology from Satan himself, whom they worship.

In that case, they have no connection with Freemasonry.

 

[chaoschristian]

This is very true, but the interesting thing about Genesis chapter one's Creation account is not in the similarities, but in the contrasts. It reads like a polemic against the various cosmological arguments that were held by the religions found in the region. The author uses the similarities to assert the differences. For instance, I don't think the others taught creation ex nihilo, as does Genesis. And the seemingly simple beginning phrase, "In the beginning, God....." refutes atheism, polytheism, and pantheism, in one blow.

yep

we end up discussing this alot in Origins Theology

 

[Harlin]

Hello,

Veith may be amazingly creative, but this is no "discovery," it is as much a fabrication as was the Taxil Hoax.

Koheleth had it right: nothing new under the sun. This seems to be especially true when it comes to the accusers of Freemasonry. What you describe is part of the Taxil Hoax of the late 19th century. I came across the Taxil Hoax when I first started researching these things three years ago, and it had been losing ground for some time even then. It still finds a life somehow, but most anti's no longer go there. After all, Taxil published a full confession to the hoax over a century ago.

Who ever this Taxil was, I could then say, I wonder how the Freemason's "coerced this person into making a published "confession", who knows maybe they didn't like their "secrets" getting out.

Taxil or no Taxil, the point remains the same, one only has to look at the symbology used by the Mason's to understand what they are really all about.

Pagan religion does not mix with Christianity. The local Freemason Lodge was arsoned where I live recently (not that I am condoning this behaviour at all, just making a point), and the local leader made a statement in the local paper, he couldn't believe this had happened, but then stated:

"We are not a secret society, but a society with secrets"

I believe him, I wonder if he knows just how many secrets they actually have. Would Jesus join a "society of secrets"? NO, Jesus does everything out in the open, Jesus and his followers dwell in the light, not in the company of those who embrace pagan dieties and symbology, ie: false religion.

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" Eph 5:11

Pretty convenient, wouldn't you say? That's one of the first tricks in the bag of the paranoia panderers who invent this nonsense, os to convince people, "You can't get hold of these materials just anywhere"--implying, of course, that you have no other access than to come back to him for anything further. That brings you back to the website so he can pander his full line of "secrets" and sell a book to "inform" you so you will not be unarmed in the face of such dangerous people. That's the first hook. The second is, as usual, "this involves Masons in the 'higher' degrees."

You can convince yourself all you like that there is nothing sinister about the Mason's, but it doesn't change the obvious facts blaring in our faces, all you have to do is look. The Mason's are known for speaking through symbols, you should study some of those symbols if your really interested in what they teach or uphold. Infact, they even have two explainations for each symbol, one for the initiates, and one for the others. Mason's don't let all their secrets out all at once, that's why they have levels or degree's, thats why you have to be "invited" up to the next level once you reach a certain degree, not all can just go up to the top.

Just because I don't have the book to look for myself, doesn't mean that it is automatically a "conspiracy theory" or haux. There are other ways and means.

"Obvious," evidently, only to you. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more, and make your comparisons a bit more directly?

It is obvious to me because I am not trying to reconcile Freemasonry with Christianity. I do not want to join the two.

I gave you some examples above, I am sure at some point you have seen the Pope carry around a staff with a pine cone on the top, a pagan symbol of fertility, or the checkered squares used on the floors of many Cathedrals and Lodges which represents Good and Evil, hard and soft, etc, very pagan.

How about the glaringly obvious sun disk that the priest puts the "eucharist" into and hold it up in his hands, before offering it to the people. The huge Phallic symbol outside the Vatican, (and the Mason's use hundreds of these all over the place too, ie outside the Whitehouse.), representing a huge male member, lining up with the door (the representative of a female member) of the Vatican itself. The Pope wears a fish mitre, the same as the priest of Dagon used to wear when he served in the temple. I could go on, but all you need to do is look into the Babylonian Mystery Religion Symbology and you just start recognising it everywhere.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

In that case, they have no connection with Freemasonry.

Well, if the Mason's believe those myths, then they do. You should study the symbology, they are so close.